[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host Anastasia Casey and today we are diving into one of the most important and often overlooked foundations of a healthy design business, contracts and scope management. I'm joined today by Brittany Hakim Farr, founder of Farr Studio, a Philadelphia based interior design studio known for its third thoughtful, layered work and highly organized project structure. But beyond the aesthetics, Britney has built a reputation for running projects with clarity, strong boundaries and systems that protect both the designer and the client experience. In this episode we're talking about the contract and scope missteps that so many designers encounter at some point in their career. We'll get into the specific language that helps prevent scope creep and revision overload. Why vague deliverables are often what lead to long term issues on a project, and how to structure revision rounds, approvals and change orders. Clearly from the very beginning, Britney also shares how far studio structures their team, how they approach pricing and project management today, plus how those systems have evolved as the studio has grown.
This season is presented by Laloy, the family owned home textile brand known for its innovative craft and meticulous design. At High Point Market this spring, Laloy just debuted Rain a rug collection with a new and rare construction along with a fresh season of rugs, pillows and wall art in collaboration with Rifle Paper Company. See everything new at lelolloirerugs. That's L-O-L-O-I rugs.com and follow LOI Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. Hello Brittany, welcome to the show. I am so excited to chat with you. We we were just able to catch up briefly before we hit record talking about this concept of contracts and how big it can feel and how it's like not the fun part of the job and how a lot of it is just sort of things that are collected over time from experience with having a studio, with having more projects under your belt. And so to everyone listening, Brittany was so gracious to be like I am willing to talk about what I know about contracts and what I've learned over the years, but obviously I just want to reiterate consult with an attorney. Every state is different. What is legal from one place to another completely varies. But we do want to dive into this and talk about things conceptually of like what are the things as a designer you want to be looking out for. So Brittany, thank you for being a part of this topic and joining us on the show.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Of course. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Before we get into the nitty gritty stuff let's go ahead and begin with the origin story of VAR Studio. What led you to start the studio and how has the business evolved in your eyes from those early years?
[00:02:48] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:02:50] Speaker C: So I would say it's evolved a lot.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: I started First Studio about eight years ago and originally I was living and working in LA and worked for an amazing designer and gained so much experience out there.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: And then as I was starting a
[00:03:08] Speaker A: family with my husband, decided I wanted to move back to the east coast
[00:03:11] Speaker C: and kind of raise my kids here.
So moved to Pennsylvania, which is the area that I grew up in, and started kind of stuck. Still doing design stuff for my boss in LA and doing some freelance things. Starting off very small.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: And what happened was that I had purchased a home with my husband and it was our first house and we kind of started to design it and people would come over and be like, I love this, you know, can you do my house? And it started off small and very organic and I realized that there was a void in the area that I lived for. My style.
I think it was much more traditional and I kind of had this bit of a west coast feel vibe and a little eclectic and things were just different in terms of what I was designing. And so very quickly I got busy and my husband, who was a lawyer
[00:04:00] Speaker C: at the time, was always helping me on the back end. And once I got to a point where I was like, I can't handle this on my own and the business side was really over my head, we decided to make a go for it and start for our studio was our full time thing.
We ended up purchasing an office space locally, very close to our home, and started small and grew and now have an amazing team.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: So it's definitely evolved over the years and we're able to take on bigger projects and we work on projects all over the US which is really cool, but started small.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: So many follow up questions. That's such an incredible story.
Backing up to the point of being like, I can't handle the business side of things. Here's my partner, my husband, who's an attorney, getting to the point of saying, okay, husband, partner, leave your job as an attorney, which historically across the nation is a fairly lucrative position to be like, okay, let's take this leap of faith and come join this business.
Do you feel like financially the business was out of place, that it was like this? Absolutely makes sense. The math, maths, or was it a big risk for you guys as a family?
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Definitely a huge risk. And I think that the reason was both of us had worked for people in the past that we just had really intense jobs and we worked a lot and we weren't able to control our own schedules. And so I think we dreamed of living a life where we could pick up our kids from school and, you know, have control of what we were doing. And this seemed like an opportunity, and it was a huge risk.
You know, I don't think the business financially was at a point at that time where we were certain of what was going to happen, but we just felt that it was really important to take this risk and to try for our family, for our kids, like for our own happiness and to really make a go for it. And I think in the beginning, like the early days, we were hustling, like it was just the two of us and we were working really hard, working nights and, you know, waking up early in the morning. We had two young kids at the time, and it was definitely a struggle in the beginning because we didn't know, like, could this support our family, support
[00:06:21] Speaker C: our lifestyle, and take us to, you know, what we wanted.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: But what we did know was that
[00:06:25] Speaker C: we really wanted that freedom down the road.
[00:06:29] Speaker B: Do you recall how long it was that it was just you and your husband was still working in his corporate role before you actually. Before he actually was brought on?
[00:06:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So I would say it was probably
[00:06:39] Speaker A: almost two years of me working on my own and kind of doing a few jobs at a time. And he was starting to work on the back end and set it up. And then when I got really busy and just. I've always known that the business side was not something I loved. And, you know, it was getting to a point where I was like, not billing people or forgetting to charge them. And, you know, I didn't have contracts in place, but there was real money being exchanged and money involved. And that's kind of when we just decided if we're going to do this, we need to really put all of our effort into it.
[00:07:16] Speaker B: Okay, and then the last follow up question is, I heard that you guys purchased a building to run your studio out of. I'd love to talk about that a little bit if you're comfortable. Because so many people are leasing their space, they're renting a space for their studio, they're working out of their house.
What made the decision how? Why did it make sense for you guys to purchase a building to run the studio out of?
[00:07:36] Speaker C: For sure.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: So when we started was right before COVID and so we all of a sudden, you know, he left his job. We were both Working out of a home office. And we had two young kids that now were not in school and realized that that was not going to work. And so it was during the time of COVID where prices were really dropping and people kind of didn't know what was going on, real estate wise. We also of Philadelphia in a suburb, so, you know, pricing is. And at the time, really was somewhat manageable. And we drove past this office space, and it was a small, like, standalone space that was actually on, like, the back end of a playground down a really cute residential street. And it had a sign. It was painted yellow at the time. It had a sign for sale by owner.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: And so we called, and it was
[00:08:27] Speaker A: a woman who had owned it for years, and she had a window treatment
[00:08:32] Speaker C: business called Shady Lady.
And she kind of clicked with us, and, you know, it resonated that we wanted to have an office space. She, you know, bought this space out of a need to also, you know, run a business where her kids weren't running around the house.
And so it was a really good timing, and we were able to purchase the office and, you know, started working from that space, just the two of us.
And now that we've expanded, we actually added recently a second floor to the building.
And, you know, we. We love it. It's the perfect area. It's five minutes from our house, five minutes from our kids. Schools, like, really great for us, but I always needed a place to leave my home and work, and it was a great situation for that.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Okay, so let's talk about what the studio looks like today. I mean, besides the fact that you
[00:09:24] Speaker A: just added a second story.
[00:09:25] Speaker B: That's so exciting. But, like, how many people are on the team and what does the structure of the company really look like?
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Of course. So right now, I would say we're actually, you know, the biggest that we have been. We just brought on another team member who is a junior designer.
We have three senior designers who have been with us for quite a few years, which I love, the longevity. And I feel like my office is like my family and, you know, want people here who we connect with and we care about.
And then we have one intern, so that's five. And then we have myself and Ben.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: Wow, that's a. That's a big team. It really is, especially for three senior designers.
How do you break. How do you break up the project workload? Does each senior designer have, like, their own projects that they manage? So you have three design teams running at once, or are people working collaboratively on projects? How does that Work?
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Good question. So I would say it actually took us a little bit to figure that out.
And at one point we were kind of all like working on different parts of a project and realized that was not, you know, a good way to do things. So right now, each designer works with me on a project, and I would say they each have about five that they are working on at any given time. And then the junior designer is kind of helping with all the different aspects, helping with CAD drawings, elevations, like renderings, anything that, you know is assisting the other designers.
And then our intern, kind of the same thing. She's, you know, helping wherever help is needed, whether it's, you know, helping convert floor plans or something like that.
But I work on every single project, and then each one of the designers works with me and is kind of overseeing, and we'll sit down and we'll go through the to do list, what is needed, you know, when the client's coming in for a presentation and all of that, and they're kind of owning those projects and making sure that we're keeping up to what's needed for them.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: Okay. And then last kind of like studio operations question before we really start talking contracts, how do you currently charge for your design services? I know there's a million ways that people do this. Are you primarily at, like, a flat rate? Are you doing hourly? Are you doing a combination depending on the project or the different phases? How do you break it down?
[00:11:42] Speaker A: So we charge a flat fee for our services, and it's based on the size and the scope of a project for me. The other designers that I had worked with had always charged in that way. So that was what I was used to. I never had been with a firm that was hourly based, and so it was. Wasn't comfortable for me. And I really like the idea of feeling like I'm not charging a client for every minute that I'm spending with them working on their project or speaking to them.
I think sometimes the flat fee is not in our favor, and other times it is. And we've worked really hard to just try to figure out, you know, how to charge so that it makes the
[00:12:19] Speaker C: most sense and that it's fair.
But I also just think that knowing that holistically, I think of it as
[00:12:27] Speaker A: like, I'm with a client, I'm their
[00:12:29] Speaker C: designer for the project for a length of a certain time. So we do have timelines on our contracts, which I think is something we
[00:12:35] Speaker A: added that was important, but that just really feels good to the client. It feels good to Me, it feels like I can be working on the.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: The project, and it's the best that, you know, we feel like is good to do.
[00:12:48] Speaker B: That is so fascinating that you had never worked at a studio that had charged hourly. So within your team, do you have your team of designers? Are they tracking all of their hours for internal purposes, or you're like, you know, we've got our team of five. We know what their salaries for the year are. We know how many projects we need to take on in order to hit that. Like, how do you account for their time if you're not pushing it directly through to the client in, like, a very, you know, we spent three quarters of an hour here. I'm billing you three quarters of an hour.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say that it's really just an experience. So we do not track internal hours, I think, over the years. I've, you know, been in this business for so long, and I have a lot of experience, and I know, you know, how many projects we need to take on. I am, you know, a hard worker and a hustler in the sense that I do a lot of work, too. And so I'm not just passing off the work. I'm doing a lot of it as well.
But we don't track hours at all. And, you know, it's more. So this is the project. This is what we need to do. And we work on what we need
[00:13:52] Speaker C: to charge to get there.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: And as we've grown, we've increased our prices, which I think is natural. As, you know, the industry has grown, prices are increasing.
The main thing, though, is that we do by having that timeline, you know, projects can extend.
[00:14:07] Speaker C: And so if a project extends past what we've said is our timeline from the beginning, that's kind of out of our control. If, you know, construction was delayed, the clients were delayed, whatever it is, then we would charge another fee. And so once it extends past that
[00:14:23] Speaker A: initial timeline, we'll either charge monthly, which is just, you know, taking our fee that we have determined prior and breaking that up into months, or we'll charge another flat fee, depending on how much
[00:14:36] Speaker C: longer the project would continue.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Interesting. So when you're creating your flat rate, you are basing it off of the scope of work and how long you expect that scope of work to happen.
So when there are delays from, like, construction delays, that would potentially push someone out of the original agreed scope, and so they would have, like, an addendum to their contract for, like, okay, now we're going to go extend. We know we're Going to be on this another three months. So it's like that. So it's almost like you're working on a monthly retainer.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Yes, exactly. Yeah, that. That's very true. And, you know, the only time where
[00:15:16] Speaker C: we have put a contract on hold was we recently had a project that was going great, and then they rented some issues with the Historical Society and like, kind of put them on hold, and they had to, you know, bring on lawyers, and everything ended up going in their favor in the end. But we were kind of at a standstill. So there was three months where we were not doing work for them, and we kind of put the contract on hold and all of that was put into writing.
But otherwise, any other kind of delay, Delays in a project where we're still working, we're still talking to the client and having conversations, we don't put our contracts on hold.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: Yeah, what about scope creep? So if, let's say, I mean, I know you guys are doing full custom homes, full renovations, but let's say they're like, okay, let's actually get to the casita in the back that wasn't originally planned, or, you know, now let's add a sun porch. You just handle that based off of, okay, well, that'll probably take us this much time. So we're adding that much time onto this contract.
Or if it. If you feel like your team has the capacity in their workload, you're like, we can still fit that in within our contracted time. Does that make sense?
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Yes, it does. So any addition to the original scope
[00:16:34] Speaker C: of work is always an addition in price.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: And so if we have a client that added an addition to the home that was not originally part of the scope, that added in a guest house that, you know, added a basement, did anything that wasn't part of the original scope, that is an addendum to the contract, and we add on to the fee for that. And that fee is usually some form of a percentage of what the original fee was broken out. So, you know, we don't charge based per square foot. But it's kind of a way that you can think of it, if we're adding a certain amount of square feet and we've charged this much, then, like, we're gonna, you know, charge that much more for this addition.
And we try to be very clear in our contracts about what our scope includes so that if any like that is to happen, it's very clear that that was not a part of the original scope. And then we, you know, are charging for that additional service.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Do you feel like with this model, scope creep happens frequently or less frequently based off of this?
[00:17:36] Speaker A: I think that it happens less frequently in the sense that we're super transparent with clients from the beginning that, you know, this is what we're working on. This is the scope that you've proposed to us, this is what we've priced out. And it's. If anything changes from this original scope, it's going to be an additional cost.
And so I think because we're so clear with that, our contracts kind of have it in writing. We typically will attach like floor plans showing, you know, this is the scope of work that we have priced out.
It's very clear. And so therefore, when, you know, an addition happens, it's not a surprise to clients, but there's always changes that can happen.
I think that prior to us, really right now, we mainly do full home projects and I like to focus on the full home. And I think that happened because of scope creep. And you know, initially clients would be like, oh, I just want you to do my first floor. But then all of a sudden I was upstairs on their second floor and they were asking me about the hallway because that connected to the first floor. And it just kind of would snowball into other things.
And I realized that if I'm going to be there working on the home, I. People are always going to ask me about other things. And so I may as well just include it as a holistic thing. And if they decide that they don't want to furnish the kids bedrooms right now because they have furniture for their kids bedrooms, like, that's fine. But my pricing doesn't change. And for some people that works, for some people it doesn't. But for us, we just feel like it's makes the most sense because even though I might not be furnishing your kids rooms, I'm still going to be picking wallpaper or paint or window treatments or maybe you're going to ask my opinion on how to lay out the furniture that you have. So. So if I am giving any sort of advice or interior design advice on any of the interior elements of a home, to me, that's our time and that's what we're hiring, you know, being hired for.
[00:19:25] Speaker B: I feel like any, any small business owner, particularly interior designers, I see it happen so often.
People have these things in their contracts. And the scope creep, it. It starts and it feels small. Like you said, it's the hallway that continues up from the staircase down below. And you're like, yes, of course we would like, do this for you, but it wasn't agreed. Can you talk us through either the process that you have implemented with your husband being on the team or someone else on the team, or the language you use if you are delivering.
I don't want to say the news, but, like, informing the client that this is out of scope. Here it is in the contract and, like, making it still feel like a positive experience. I think a lot of designers are afraid of, like, a client feeling like they're being punished or just inhibiting the. The relationship that they've built with someone. So they. They acquiesce and they. And they do the scope, even though it's beyond what was already contracted for, for sure.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: And I think that's exactly what would happen to me in the beginning of my career is that I would feel bad, and I would be like, oh, but they're so nice, and they just asked me to, like, pick a paint color for this room. And, you know, I would always try
[00:20:40] Speaker C: to make excuses realized. And I think this did involve bringing my husband on board, is that every decision I make is money and time and something that is an expertise that kind of someone is bringing me on for, and that you need to charge for your time, because everyone is charging for their time in some way.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: And so I think that we've really gotten great about just being upfront with clients. And we start off when we onboard clients, we have conversations with them and we say ask questions. I talk to them about our process, and I'm really open about it. And I think that because we're so open about it, and it's also in our contract that if someone does ask for something that's additional, it's not so odd for me to say, like, yeah, for sure. I'd be happy to work on that with you. Like, let me talk to the team, and we'll send an updated proposal.
And so I think you have to do it in a way that still feels friendly and warm, and there's. There's no reason why you shouldn't do it. You know, if. As long as you like working with this client, why wouldn't you want to expand the scope?
But it just has to be in a way that is kind of matter of fact. And that's where certainly the business side comes into this, is that, you know, this is transactional, and there are contracts. There's, you know, money coming in, and we're paying money to, you know, our designers that work for us and all of that. We're running a business. And so as much as sometimes it can feel like your clients are your friends, you also have to remember that you're running a business and, you know, it just has to be matter of fact.
And it's also nice that sometimes, not that there's like, good guy, bad guy, but you know, that I can be like, the person who's talking to our clients, and then I can be like, oh, let me, you know, have Ben reach out to you about the new contract. Like, that's also a nice way to pass it off, where I don't feel like I'm always having those conversations with them.
[00:22:34] Speaker B: Totally. And if you don't have a Ben on your team, I think that that definitely could even be having the project manager or having, like, your studio admin, even just from your accounting team. I do think that there's so much value to having someone else be the person who sends over that. That conversation piece, the new contract, the change of scope, the addendum, whatever that looks like, just so you can continue to have that friendly rapport and feel like it's separate. We get to talk about fun, creative things, and this person on the team
[00:23:03] Speaker A: is handling the not fun stuff.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: Yeah, not as fun, less glamorous things.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Brittany, what do you think are some of the more common mistakes that designers are making? Whether they were mistakes you've made or mistakes that you've seen other people come across when it comes to their contract or scope in their business, especially on. In the early years, for sure.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: So I think, as we've talked about, like laying out in your contract in bullet points, the scope of work, having it very clear is important. So that's number one, I would say. Another really important thing is that we don't purchase anything until we are paid. So until we receive payment for an item, we are not purchasing that item. We are not a bank, and there's no need for us to be putting out money that has not been brought into us yet.
And so I think that that's something that's super important both in the contract and also just in how you run a business. And sometimes you think like, oh, she told me it's approved. So, like, you know, the money may take a bit, but we can start ordering it. But I really believe in waiting for payment before placing orders, and I think that that's really important to have in your contract and just in how you run a business.
And then as kind of not fun as this might sound, there should always be something where you have a way out. So if you are working with a Client not going well, you don't like them, you don't like how they're interacting with your team, you're not liking how the project's going. We have an area in our contract that says that, you know, both us or the client can end this contract at any time and that, you know, we would be paid for what we have done up until that point. But, you know, we have a way out and we have never had to use it. So I think that that's also, you know, a great thing. But it's more so just the idea that you don't feel trapped and because is such a all encompassing and like personal, you know, job that you're designing someone's home. Like you don't want to be working for someone who you don't enjoy working with.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: Definitely. Okay. Of course I have follow up questions.
First one, when you're talking about you never place a purchase order before receiving the money. Do you guys at Far Studio have a policy that all, all of the furnishings must be paid for before you start ordering anything? Or if someone's like, okay, we'll pay you for the living room, start ordering that, you'll do it and then, okay, we've paid for the primary bedroom, we'll start ordering that. Can people piecemeal it or are you like, we get everything in full.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: You can definitely piecemeal it. But I do find that the more we're able to do together, the more seamless a project goes. Because when you start breaking it up into phases, then you're also piecemealing the installation.
My ideal situation is when we install a project and it's fully complete and you really get to do that full reveal. And when people start piecemealing things, you don't have that same effect. And then they might start asking questions or, oh, I don't love this chair. But they haven't seen it with the full room.
So we will order things prior to, you know, the full money being paid
[00:26:22] Speaker C: for all the furniture. But I typically like to hold off and do an install with everything together.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Okay. And then another thing that you sort of touched on when we're talking about that out that you want to make sure you have a clause that either party can exit this contract.
What do you feel like are early warning signs that a project is starting to drift either when it comes to scope or even just like relationship.
[00:26:50] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: I think that when a client is overly aggressive, so you know, when they're calling and texting and emailing a lot, I think that that is kind of an initial red flag and starts to set the tone of, you know, this is more than I want to handle.
I also think when a client changes their mind a lot, that is really, to me, something very difficult. And I think that, you know, if they're constantly wavering and they're changing their mind and they're unsure or they're, you know, asking their friends or asking different people's opinions, like, to me, that's really a red flag as well.
And we try our best to vet people in the begin, like just how a client is interviewing me, I'm interviewing them. And because we've been doing this for so long, and I've been in this industry for so long, I do feel like I've gotten good. But sometimes there's always people who creep through and all of a sudden you're like, oh, wow, this is not, you know, who I thought I was working with.
But it really is a matter of making sure that you like these clients. And, you know, just as much as they feel like they want to hire a great designer, like you want to
[00:28:00] Speaker C: bring on a great client, it absolutely.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Do you feel like there are areas of a contract where designers tend to be like, too vague that can be problematic later on in the project?
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say deliverables. And I just think that so many designers work in so many different ways. It's probably one of the few industries that you can bill in so many different ways and operate in so many different ways. And, you know, some designers might provide like full 3D renderings for a whole home, while as other designers are just doing vision boards. And so I think really being clear about the deliverables and what you're going to provide, putting that in the contract. Typically we have progress payments throughout our fees, so when we hit certain project milestones, that's when we ask for the next payment.
So I think that that's really helpful because it kind of makes the client feel like you are continually engaged and continually working towards a goal, but really being clear about what you're. Your firm is providing and what you're
[00:29:02] Speaker C: capable of doing and kind of what those deliverables are.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: So for a studio that is billing a flat rate based off of project milestones, I am curious how you handle if a client or how you judge if a client's going to need a lot of hand holding or going to want a lot of site visits or, you know, they'll expect you on site once a week, or they're like, you know, our contractors got it. You can check in via text. And I expect you guys to be at these core milestones that really changes what those deliverables are. But that's kind of like the preference of a client. How do you build that in with your model?
[00:29:46] Speaker A: I think that that's a really tough thing that, you know, sometimes is why we maybe end up not as profitable in a project if a client needs a lot more hand holding and is just more needy, because we might not always be able to determine that up front. And because we charge based on size and scope, we're not really charging based
[00:30:06] Speaker C: on a client's personality. And so that is an area where,
[00:30:10] Speaker A: you know, a flat fee sometimes might not benefit us.
But for me, I think it would be so much more work to figure
[00:30:19] Speaker C: out how to charge hourly and how to handle that and to train our team and kind of more than I, you know, it's not how I think of interior design, that those are just
[00:30:29] Speaker A: kind of the waves and things that
[00:30:31] Speaker C: we need to balance when we're running our business. And the hope is that for every client that's super needy, you have another client that's not as needy.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: But I think we go in there
[00:30:41] Speaker C: expecting that these clients are really expecting us to be very involved. And so it's a delight when a client is kind of a little more laid back and trusts you. And we recently had a project that a client was like, you know what, I hired you guys for a reason. I've told you what I like. Now you know, I'm going to trust you and let you run with it. And that's like a dream client.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: And they're not all like that.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: But when one comes along, then that feels really great.
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[email protected] and get 50% off your first month as an interior collective listener. That's G M A T e r I o.com I think your example of, of specifying what deliverables are like, do you do full 3D renderings? How many per room? Like, how many views for per room someone can expect is such a great point because usually when I'm talking to designers here on the show, when we're talking about proposals or scope of work, people are like, yes, we're doing, you know, a full gut job. Like, this is going to be all finishes and everything. But they are often skipping that step of, okay, what am I actually going to see from you to get to that final end result? So I think that is such an important reminder.
Are you guiding clients while you're in the process of, like, what those next deliverables are, or do you have like a really clear onboarding portion? And then from there they're just kind of like following along with the process as it goes? Those how, how much client education is happening beyond just the contract.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: So I really do try to guide clients and to tell them, like, this is what we're going to select first and then this is what's going to happen next. And, you know, then we'll do this after that.
I try to put together an email early on that kind of sets those
[00:33:47] Speaker C: steps and talks them about our process.
Typically when we start a project, the most important thing is us really making sure that the floor plans are working and that they work with the furniture layout and the flow and that there's not things that we're seeing that are concerning. And so we always really dive into the floor plans, especially if it's at a stage where we still have the time to change those things. And then after all of that has been solidified, we go into hard finishes. And so then we're selecting the flooring, the tile, the marble, talking about cabinetry details and all of those interior materials
[00:34:25] Speaker A: and kind of hard finishes. Then we go into plumbing fixtures and appliances, and then we go into furniture. And so, so I do really try to educate clients when we're doing a full home that, you know, there are these steps that we need to go through. And we're going to have presentations and we're going to have meetings, and we'll go with them to the stone yard and to the plumbing supply store and look at appliances and all of those different things.
But it is important to educate them and to kind of talk with them about how this process is going to go so that they are also prepared
[00:34:57] Speaker B: when I'd love to hear a little bit that. That more about your process that you do bring your clients with you to look at the stone yard, and you guys do go to the plumbing showroom. How involved do you personally like to keep your clients in it? Because I know some designers are like, oh, my God, I would never let someone come with me to go source those things. We'll show them best, brightest. And I have others who are like, we will literally go look at every pillow in this town together. If that's what you want to do.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Go right.
[00:35:26] Speaker C: So I think with the finishes, it's really important, specifically with marble. Marble's natural.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: We love marble, but there's so many variations and differences. So to go to the stone yard, I think is a must for every client.
Now, we have had clients who say, you know, we don't have time, or
[00:35:44] Speaker C: we trust you and you pick it, and that's great.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: But most of the clients actually enjoy
[00:35:48] Speaker C: going to the stone yard. And I think it's so fun.
I'm actually heading there tomorrow with a couple of clients. And, like, we'll probably spend the day there looking at marble, which is amazing.
And then same with plumbing fixtures and appliances. There's so many options out there that I think it makes sense for clients to see them, to touch and feel the plumbing fixtures. And we can't bring everything to our studio. So although we have finishes at our studio and we kind of have our go to's and our favorites. And usually when we go to the plumbing supply house, we will kind of lead them in the right direction. But I still want to talk with them about everything, to have them talk with the experts who are in the store and really, really see the range of options. And so those are two things that I think are very important.
Samples as far as, like tile and stone, we typically bring those into our studio. We have so many samples in our showroom space. And then if we need to order samples for a project, we do. And vendors are usually so great about sending them. And same with fabrics.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: And then I think, you know, it
[00:36:48] Speaker C: was kind of back in the day, like people envisioned interior design. You're going in like you're Sitting on every single piece of furniture and, and chair and you're looking at every pillow. And you would go to the design showrooms and just like pick out your whole house. And that's not how we do it. So with furniture it is much more about us showing them the furniture pieces, showing it to them, both the fabrics and like in plan. And then a lot of trust and knowing that we've sat in the pieces and we've tried them.
[00:37:15] Speaker A: And then if a client does want to see pieces, if it's something that we can go and see in New York, you know, we go to New York with clients and we'll go to a couple showrooms, but it's definitely not
[00:37:25] Speaker C: showing them every pillow.
[00:37:26] Speaker A: Like to me that's too much. So I think there's like a little bit of involvement that you need to bring them in for. But you also can't be going with them to see everything.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Do you include kind of those benchmarks of when they'll be invited to participate in your deliverables outline? Like will clients know that they will get to go see things at certain points when it comes to the contract, or is that more just language that you're sharing with them at the onboarding process?
[00:37:54] Speaker A: Process, it's more conversational, I would say. It's like language of how I'm talking to them when, you know, we're having the initial interviews and meetings and then throughout the project.
So I don't have that all in the contracts because I just feel that that is kind of more fluid.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: And then how do you handle situations where a client assumes something is included when it actually wasn't defined in the scope? So like for instance, let's just say Far Studio does do 3D renderings in the kitchen, the primary bathroom, and maybe like two other main spaces. But like you're not doing 3D renderings for, you know, the kids bathroom and all these other spaces. And then you get to presentation day and the client is like, well, where are our 3D walkthroughs of these spaces? And you're like, we don't offer that. How do you handle that if it even comes up?
[00:38:47] Speaker A: So I am actually super upfront with people in the beginning that we don't do in house renderings.
[00:38:52] Speaker C: And it's a service that we will
[00:38:54] Speaker A: outsource if a client wants it, but
[00:38:55] Speaker C: it's in a additional fee.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: I would need to have like a full time person on staff to do renderings if that was something that we did. And I don't feel that it's necessary. And for a client that does want
[00:39:07] Speaker C: it and does think it's necessary, then, you know, we have someone who can provide that service.
Something that is interesting now that we're kind of playing around with is AI, you know, that we are able to do certain renderings, but they're not exact and it's not like something you can walk through.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: So they might be helping a client
[00:39:28] Speaker C: visualize a space, but they're not a real true rendering of, you know, how as designers, we know renderings to be.
And so that is something that from the beginning I always say to clients, like, we don't do 3D renderings in house because it's just, you know, more than we're able to offer.
But if there is something where a client expected that it was included and you know, it wasn't something that I was planning to include, I would try to be as honest with them as possible and just say that that's not something that's a part of our service. But, you know, if you're interested in
[00:39:59] Speaker A: doing that, we can certainly look into
[00:40:01] Speaker C: options and it would be an add on fee.
[00:40:04] Speaker B: I feel like revisions are one of the biggest areas where scope creep can like quietly happen.
How do you recommend designers structure revision rounds in their contracts?
[00:40:18] Speaker A: So I would probably say that that's something I need to work on. And you know, it is something that I've thought about like, how can we put into our contract that we do, let's just say two revisions and anything after that we charge for it. And we currently don't have it in our contract, which it's something that we've talked about. And I do think it's important because we have had clients who have told us their vision and sent us their inspiration, which is usually how we start
[00:40:43] Speaker C: off with all of the discovery.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: And then we've spent all of this
[00:40:47] Speaker C: time, we've done a presentation and they've
[00:40:48] Speaker A: come in and they're like, actually, I
[00:40:50] Speaker C: think I want it more like this.
And it's something that ends up so spending a lot.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: We end up spending a lot more
[00:40:56] Speaker C: time and it's difficult if we're not charging hourly to, you know, charge for that.
I would say that I'm always learning
[00:41:05] Speaker A: and evolving our contract.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: And we are, you know, figuring out ways based on experience and based on areas where things have, you know, gone wrong that we need to protect ourselves. And that is certainly one area that we have talked about. You know, how can we put this in our contract and what is the wording that we should be using so that it's very clear that after two revisions like that, you know, that is all that is included.
[00:41:28] Speaker B: I feel like a lot of designers also come across the question of, like, okay, was that one round of revisions, you know, they ended up changing 75% of this room, or is one round of revisions being like, okay, we're going to swap, swap the sofa fabric and, you know, three of the smaller furniture pieces in there. And so I think that that's a big question that people come across as well. And I have been seeing it to be much more of a standard nowadays that people's contracts say includes two round of revisions. And it's like anything you want to revise in that round of revisions when you submit it and sign off on those revisions, that counted as one round. So I'm curious, curious what, what process you have in place for, like, approval checkpoints when you are presenting, especially the way that you guys present and you're like, hard finishes. Then we go to plumbing, then we go, you know, you're doing it in phases like that versus, like, here's everything, all finished.
How are you collecting approvals from people? Are you getting verbal? Are you getting signatures on things? Do you have a software that you like to use? How are you getting this to be like, this is confirmed, this is signed off on. So now we're moving forward.
[00:42:45] Speaker C: Forward, yeah.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: So what we'll do is we'll do typically a presentation where we lay everything out in our office, and we usually have a couple different options. And we'll spend a lot of time talking to the clients about the different options after that meeting, once they've made their decisions and what they've liked, or maybe they're, you know, deciding between a few. We'll put together a presentation, and the presentation goes room by room and talks about the finishes and the materials and all of the details in each room. And that gets sent to them. And then they have a chance to review it and respond. And we will, in email, get in writing. You know, this is approved. We like this finish. And then ultimately the contractor typically will provide us a finish to sign off on. And we will always show that to them unless, you know, we feel that it's not necessary. But most of the time we're showing that to them prior to us signing off on it. So we do always get it in writing. I think it's very important to have everything in writing. I try as much as possible to. When a client text me, like, I try to put it on email because I think that Having that email chain of back and forth is super important.
But then our presentation kind of becomes our bible throughout the project of, like, what we're doing, what the finishes are,
[00:43:55] Speaker C: what the contractor is looking at, and as we are updating things, that gets updated.
So it's very much, you know, there for the client to see. It's always at the different presentations that we have so that we're making sure that they know exactly what is going on.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: How are you delivering it to your contractors when there's changes that may have happened? How are you ensuring that they have, like, the most correct up to date?
[00:44:21] Speaker C: So typically we'll do it through email,
[00:44:24] Speaker A: and if there's a change that occurred, we'll send them an updated packet and then list in the email what has changed. So, you know, this has changed from Oak to Walnut.
[00:44:34] Speaker C: Please note that and confirm receipt.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: And we are. Are always communicating a lot with the contractors. I like to have very good relationships
[00:44:41] Speaker C: with all of the contractors and vendors
[00:44:43] Speaker A: that we work with so that we can really ensure that they're asking us when they have questions and that we're telling them if anything is changing and really making sure that they have reviewed
[00:44:53] Speaker C: it and received it. But rather than just sending them a
[00:44:55] Speaker A: whole packet and being like, oh, find what. What the client changed, like, well, we'll write out. You know, these are the things that
[00:45:01] Speaker C: have changed since this class last meeting.
[00:45:04] Speaker B: What about change orders that are happening because, you know, walls got opened up and something can't happen that we thought it could, and it changes the timeline. Some things need to be respect.
How. How do you adjust based off of your pricing model for that scope? Change things that aren't necessarily. They're. They're not necessarily adding something, but like, it has changed the finish line.
[00:45:29] Speaker D: Line.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, that's a bit of a gray area in the sense of, you know, how we're charging. Because when we think of a house as like a full home, the client expects that whatever happens within that house is included.
And typically, you know, if there is issues where the contractor has more work, it's not necessarily more work for us. So, you know, if they open up a wall and there's mold, like that is more work and more money that they're having to charge the client, but we're not having to do anything because of that change.
And if that's. That these issues with the home do extend the timeline of a project.
[00:46:04] Speaker C: Same type of thing where it's like, it's not our fault and we were
[00:46:08] Speaker A: still involved throughout that Timeline, and the client kind of needs to understand that when you are doing construction and renovations, things may happen, and that that's kind
[00:46:17] Speaker C: of part of the process.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: When do you ever come up against a project where, because everything's phased out, you're getting to the furnishings segment, and there were problems that came up in construction. Their budget is now beyond what they expected, and now you're at furniture, and they're like, we don't have the money right now to do this.
Based off of how you've laid out your scope, do you have any protections to be like, well, the sourcing still or the design work still has to happen that's already been contracted, or are you like, that's okay, we can pause and revisit this. How do you handle those types of changes?
[00:47:00] Speaker A: Definitely. So I think that that is something where we kind of have to be understanding about a client and their budget. And if the construction did cost more than they were anticipating and they don't have as large of a budget for furnishings, we are okay with that.
[00:47:15] Speaker C: We can still work with that.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: We just want to know what the
[00:47:17] Speaker C: budget is and what they're expecting. And I always say that we're able to work within budgets as long as they're realistic. So, you know, I'm. I'm going to be able to furnish a home for, you know, a low number, and I'll be upfront about that, but I don't want to waste our time sourcing things if, you know, they don't have the budget for it. So typically we do ask for furnishings budget prior to sourcing so that we know where they're thinking of what they want to spend for furniture. And if that changes, what's nice that we phased it out is that we probably haven't sourced pieces prior to, you know, them going through that budget with us.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: And if that means that maybe they
[00:47:54] Speaker C: can't furnish all of the rooms that they wanted to, we just know that we're not sourcing pieces.
It affects us a little bit in the sense that, you know, we're not getting marked up for pieces, and, you know, that could change, but I guess that's all part of the business and, you know how things go. And some clients will love to spend on beautiful furniture pieces, and it's amazing. And other clients will rather put their money into the finishes, and it still can be amazing.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: Beyond just the contract language, are there systems or processes you feel designers can implement that can help reinforce scope, boundaries, communication boundaries. Boundaries in general throughout the project?
[00:48:40] Speaker A: Yes. I mean, I just think that being really upfront from the beginning is the most important thing.
The contract, as we've said, you know, making sure that everything is really written out, clients will review it, they'll come back, they'll have questions. Usually we send a. A contract to a client and they
[00:48:56] Speaker C: have questions, and then we have a call with them and we go through
[00:48:58] Speaker A: their questions and we talk about our process.
[00:49:01] Speaker C: Giving them as much information as possible, I think, is the best way to just protect yourself and make sure that there's clear lines of communication.
[00:49:10] Speaker A: And hopefully, you know, in these situations, if you've done all of that, then there aren't going to be issues later on and just really laying out for
[00:49:20] Speaker C: them how the process goes, how you work. And, you know, because this is a
[00:49:23] Speaker A: business where people work so differently, you
[00:49:25] Speaker C: just need to really be upfront about how you work and how your office works, and, you know, what the different levels that you go through are as
[00:49:33] Speaker B: your studio has grown, have you had to evolve your contracts or scope structures along the way? I mean, having an attorney on the team feels very beneficial. That, like, oh, that happened. We're going to go ahead and add that to the contract. Is it something that Ben is revisiting very frequently, or. It's like, we have this locked in. I know this is an accurate contract, and now that we've, you know, in this case, worked with an attorney, it's not something that you have to be worried about every time you have a project.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: I would say we are visiting it very frequently. And with every project, you learn something new, and even just, you know, having some friends that are designers or, you know, different people in the industry that we talk to.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: And, you know, sometimes people will share contracts and you'll be like, oh, you know, I don't have that in my contract. That's a good thing to have.
So it's always evolving, and we have
[00:50:29] Speaker A: certainly changed it from when we first started, and I think that now it is so much more clear and to the point, but it really is always evolving. And at the end of the day, like, you just want to protect yourself, and you want to make sure that you're not making yourself liable for something that you don't have control over.
And so it's really important to make sure that these contracts are clear. Um, something, you know, that we recently added into a contract was that we are not contractors and we are able to, you know, design something and propose it, but ultimately the contractor needs to make sure that it is able to be made and that he can, you know, construct it, and that is. He's the person who's making it.
[00:51:14] Speaker C: And I think that that was really
[00:51:15] Speaker A: important because sometimes clients would kind of lay blame and say, like, oh, well, like, you designed this and, you know, this happened or whatever it is. And so it's really important to say, like, we are not contractors, we are not architects, and if we need to bring in experts, if we need an engineer, you know, that is an additional cost, and if we need an architect, whatever it may be.
So it's really important to just be upfront about it. And I think that that's something that
[00:51:41] Speaker C: is nothing to be afraid of.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Just to say, you know, we are designers.
[00:51:44] Speaker C: We are designing things for.
[00:51:46] Speaker A: For aesthetic, beauty and taste, and, you know, we want to make sure that
[00:51:50] Speaker C: they are working, but we also need
[00:51:52] Speaker A: to go through the chain of command and make sure that things are being checked and, you know, done properly.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: One thing you just mentioned was making sure that the contract is very clear and the language is simplified. Can we dig into that a little bit more? Because I think that people feel like a contract sometimes needs to be extra wordy for it to, like, have all the legal jargon and, and like, over explain everything. And it's interesting that you said that. You guys have actually sort of, while you've added clauses, et cetera, to it, you've actually simplified how clear and concise it is.
Tell us why you've made that decision or why you found that that is better received by a client.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: Definitely. So I think that, you know, our contract used to be longer than it currently is, and we were in a forum with other designers and everyone was sharing their contracts and someone had a contract that was like one page long. It was very clear, it was very to the point, and it didn't. It didn't feel overly wordy, and I liked it, and I felt like it was just very matter of fact. And so we worked to. Ben. Worked to simplify our contract and, you know, to take phrases that might have been overly long or overly legal even, and to just make them, like, very straightforward.
[00:53:10] Speaker C: And so now our contract is like two pages long and it's easier for
[00:53:16] Speaker A: a client to read.
[00:53:16] Speaker C: It's got a lot of bullet points, actually. I misspelled. Okay.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: It's.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: It's.
[00:53:20] Speaker C: I'm looking at it now. It's more than two pages long, but it's definitely down from where it was.
And, you know, we want to make sure that we're covered, but you also need to make sure that everything is really clear and so, you know, that is something that I feel like is important.
And typically what we'll do is when we are speaking with a client, we'll speak with them initially and have a call, we'll talk about the project and kind of that's like how we're onboarding them and, you know, making sure that we feel like it's a fit. And then if they ask for a proposal, we will send a proposal which is kind of a shortened version of our contract in very clear bullet points in an email format of like what we're going to provide so they have a chance to review that even before receiving the formal contract to sign. So we go through, you know, these steps to make sure that it's very upfront, very clear, and, you know, we want to be as open about our process as possible.
[00:54:13] Speaker B: That is so fascinating. I have found even when we're working with like our highest caliber of clients at IDCO Studio, which are not homeowners, it's interior designers. The more simple the language directly in an email, the easier it is to close the deal. The easier it is to make sure they've actually read it. When a contract is super verbose, that's when I feel like there can be questions that come up along the process after you've already engaged with them because they didn't actually read or fully understand everything because there was just so much in the contract contract. But when you can simplify it and make it very clear what's in, what's included and what's not, when you do need to send that reference to it at a later date and say, hey, this is beyond scope. Here it is in the contract. It's there aren't surprises because they're like, yes, I was able to comprehend a 2, 3 page contract, not like the 14 page one.
[00:55:06] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: Well, Brittany, as we wrap up, I always love to ask, is there anything exciting coming up for Far Studio that you are able to share with us? Us collaborations, new projects, anything you're designing that we can hear about?
[00:55:21] Speaker C: Of course.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: Well, so we actually were just published online for House Beautiful, which was really exciting and it was actually my personal home. So really exciting and important project.
We have some other publications coming out over the next few months and amazing projects. We are partnering with a lighting company and some other brands and so just lots of exciting, exciting stuff coming up that we are really excited about. I think that there's always space to grow and develop and to learn new things and I just really love where we're headed. I love our office and how everything's going and yeah, it's. It's been a really exciting time and I am excited to grow more and for other people to see for our studio.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Well, I will make sure that we link your beautiful home tour on House Beautiful in the show notes because I know everybody's like, immediately googling it, trying to look it up as they hear about it. Brittany, this was so informative, so helpful. Thank you so much for being incredibly honest about, like, what has worked, what hasn't worked, and what you guys have added as a team. I am so excited to continue watching you and Ben just like explode and continue putting out the most beautiful, incredible work. It's. It's really remarkable to watch what you guys have put together.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: Thank you so much. And this has been so fun for me. I love talking about the business and I think that it's really great to have time to share all of this and I learned so much when I, you know, listen to your other guests that are on the show. So very fun to be a part of it.
[00:56:58] Speaker B: Thank you so much for your time today and we'll talk soon
[00:57:04] Speaker D: for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made your contribution literally really makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time. I'm Anastasia Casey, and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: A very special thanks to our presenting sponsor, laloy, the makers of the thoughtfully designed rugs, pillows and wall art crafted with a commitment to ethical production and timeless style.
