[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey. And today I am so excited to be joined by one of the most influential voices in American design, Nina Freudenberger. As the founder of Freudenberger Design Studio, Nina has built a body of work that transcends trend cycles, coasts and even design styles. Yet every space she touches evokes the same feeling. Grounded, effortless and deeply personal.
You might know her from best selling design books like Surf Shack, Biblio Style and the most recently Mountain House, or from her projects featured in Arc Digest, in Vogue. But what's perhaps most fascinating about Nina's journey is how she's built a brand that evolves with her from interiors to publishing and beyond, all while staying visually cohesive and emotionally resonant. In this conversation, we're pulling back the curtain on what it takes to grow a multidisciplinary design studio, how to build a signature style that leaves rooms for reinvention, and how Nina's expanded her business into new creative categories with without losing sight of what matters most. If you're a designer looking to grow a timeless business that evolves with you, this is a conversation you're not gonna wanna miss. Let's dive in.
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[00:01:49] Speaker B: If you've been listening to the Interior Collective for a while, you probably have heard all kinds of software recommendations and maybe even tried a few. But if your system still feels kind of all over the place, I totally get it. That's exactly why I wanted to share. Materio that's M A T E R I O. It's an all in one platform built just for interior designers. From concept to install and everything in between, you can try it for
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Hello Nina and welcome to the show. I'm so excited to chat with you. I think this is such a cool topic. I just think your brain is like incredible and I'M really excited about kind of, like what we decided to dig into today in our conversation.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm obviously a big fan of your. Your show, and I'm ready to dive in, so.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: Okay, so let's just dig into it. Cause I have a lot of technical questions to get through. You have really designed everything from, like, coastal surf shacks to cozy mountain retreats. And we'll get more into, like, what that means later as far as the evolution of your brand and your books. But what do you feel stays consistent across all of your projects, no matter the geography or style?
[00:03:05] Speaker A: I think I would say the common thread is, you know, working with makers and craftsmanship. So I would say that about 70% of the things that we're doing, 60 to 70, are custom built ins, furniture design, all of those things. And with that, we have to work really closely with our vendors and our craftspeople. And that's really important to me. You know, my mission and goal in doing interior design is doing something that feels like it has a lasting quality, something that feels not overly trendy, that has a sense of heritage, and hopefully will last for decades. I. I really am here for quality and craftsmanship. And that is the common thread, of course. And then also allowing some space within the design and kind of keeping it relatively simple and not overly done so that clients have the ability to grow with the design. So five years down the road, they have the ability to add. It's not completely dictated by exclusively my design, but they can really live in their house. So I'm not here to tell them how to live. It's about making a space for them to live in and then continue to grow with the house or residents or anywhere.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that philosophy, Nina. And I feel like I hear so often that, you know, a designer's goal is to, like, just have it picture perfect, ready to move in. The family never has to think about it again. But I think it's so true that over some time, like, you want your house to evolve with you and you, you know, after working with you and your team, I'm sure people suddenly are, like, super into interiors. And so it's really exciting for them to be able to add pieces to it. So leaving space, that's a really interesting concept. Thank you for sharing that. Even though your spaces definitely never feel trendy, they somehow always feel like they are at the forefront of what's next. How are you able to balance, like, trend awareness with the Desire to create really timeless spaces that your clients live in and grow in over the years.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: There is certainly. I am definitely absorbing what's out there at a given time. So, like, you know, there was there. You know, I'm certainly. I would definitely not call myself trendy, but I'm certainly aware of, like, the kind of environment. You know, there was a phase where everyone was into quiet luxury, kind of this soft fashion. Like, everything was very natural. We were going into very. These muted color palettes, really simple linens. Focus on materials as opposed to color. And now we're swinging the other direction. We're going some crazy postmodern vibes. We're starting to add in some color.
I know what's about to come in two years, it's gonna be like a color explosion. Red's coming back in. You know, these things that we would have never talked about four years ago are now making their way back in. I'm aware of those things. And so I think, though, that I don't try and hop on the bandwagon too hard. So I'm not gon to give you a white living room just because we're in quiet luxury phase and, you know, make rooms of red so totally. So once that. That disappears kind of off the pallet, I hope that I've created a room that has the ability to kind of flex with change of. Of time. I will say, though, that I do am aware of when things start shifting, and it usually starts to shift with the dealers, and that happens with the. The dealers at, say, Round Top. You start to see what they're picking overseas. So, you know, three years ago, they started picking br.
And I was like, oh, that's interesting. That's not farmhouse like it was, you know, two years earlier. And so once there, once you start to see what they're pulling, you start to realize what's coming up next. And that's actually a really interesting.
A really interesting way to think about it, because it's not necessarily designers picking the trends. It's actually who the. You know, all these incredible people that we work with that are actually, you know, sourcing the furniture for us to purchase. And then, you know, the.
That's kind of the one step before us, so usually can tell what's happening with those. With those guys. And I have close relationships with them, and I see what's happening at the markets, and so that's where I kind of figure that out.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Wow, that's so interesting. It's almost kind of reverse of what you think. You think that designers are the ones who are leading the way. And sure, there certainly are. And dealers are definitely looking at what designers are doing. But you're absolutely right. Like when you're at Roundtop, you can walk through all the different vendors and you can see. Got it. This is what's happening right now. This is what's coming next. And it's very, very clear.
So, Nina, you are super technically trained. I'm curious as to with your education, what is your process for designing a space that feels both rooted in place but also deeply personal for the client? How are you bridging that? Technical training and also kind of the emotional aspect of the design phase.
[00:07:43] Speaker A: So, you know, I like being considered technically trained and I went to architecture school. But I would like to say as a side note that that kind of prepared me and a zero for interior design. Like, I really, I can't emphasize that enough. Not only did I go to art school, I loved it. My experience was incredible at RISD and all of that. But what it did teach me was a pathway to like an end, as in our creative process. And it kind of taught us to hone our skills in that sense. But it certainly did not give me any technical skills in terms of discussing millwork details, furniture design. You talking about. I don't know, everything from H Vac to switching plans to any of that. So no, I didn't unfortunately get that. But I've been doing this now for, for 20 years solid, straight just through. So I have learned in the field and I feel like I'm at the point in my career where I actually really know what I'm doing. And the first, the first 10, you're like trying to, you know, every day you're like, oh, I gotta figure this out. But like, this time we really like pretty much, you know, we know what the.
I mean, every day I'm still learning, but like, it's not a surprise, it's not like a shock that like I'm like, what electrical? You know, that's the good news. You know, the. But the. But, you know, ultimately we are a service based industry. So what we're. What I'm here to do is make sure that I'm delivering the important things to make the project function and move forward at a, at a pace that is appropriate. And then also make the client though, feel heard. And it's really about her house or his house and their house and their family's house. It's not my house, so I have to be really aware of that. And so I do a lot of listening and. And then trying to catch some of the nuances. So maybe sometimes they're saying something, but I really see that they're actually asking for something else. And I'm really merging those two things. So, you know, internally, my creative process is.
It's very much like a flow. You know, it goes up and down. It feels like what's. What we're feeling inspired by. Maybe we're focused on a room, maybe we're obsessing over, you know, this detail we just have to get right, and we spend like six hours on it. You know, internally, our process really moves with the process, with. With the project flow. But we. It would be. You'd be surprised at how much. How many hours we spend on some small stuff, you know, just to get it right. But, yeah, you know, we are here to provide a service. So as much as the creativity part fuels us on the inside internally, and this is why I love what I do, we're still presenting and working through these deliverables or these things to action, items that have to be done.
[00:10:13] Speaker B: So I think that from an outside perspective, one of the things I've most admired about your work is how you've organized it in the way that you present it to the world. And it feels like there have been really distinct chapters in one cohesive story of your career. And what I mean by that is, you know, it. It always aligns with your books. And there's been such a evolution. It does feel very geographical, but an evolution in what you're presenting and how you're presenting your work. Can you talk to us about your process in developing an aesthet and how that evolves rather than reinvents? Because it feels like, you know, if you. If I look at my bookshelf, I have three of your books, and they have different vibes. How have you kept, like, this cohesive momentum forward while still letting things be celebrated in more of a niche fashion?
[00:11:05] Speaker A: That's such an interesting question, and I actually love that because I sometimes don't reflect. Like, I don't take a step back and like, actually acknowledge some of those things. So it's really. That's really interesting to me.
You know, the books are such a passion project, right? Like, these are these journeys that I go on because, you know, the world of interior design is challenging and all we do is kind of give. We're like just. We're giving things, we're giving our designs out there, we're working hard for clients, we're doing all this stuff. And I just sometimes Felt like my. Like, I don't want to use, like, my empty bucket. But, like, at a certain point, you're like, you know, like, what is fueling me? Like, what's the point of this? Like, what am I doing here? And, like, what gets me excited? And so these books are kind of like these selfish passion projects that I do that end up being not so selfish after all, because I hope I put them out in the world, hopefully, and it fuels someone else. But the mission is really, like, I want to see other things that I'm not seeing out there. And I, you know, I. You know, there's. There are moments in, like, Pinterest or, like, your. Your search or your digging through your library where you're like, oh, I've hit the end. Like, this is it. I've seen this house three times. It's on my feed. Everyone's picking up on it. What are. What. Oh, that's so sad. So my mission was always to, like, how do I get inspiration that is not directly? Like, that's not already out there? And so I have to find it and hence the book. So the books are like my version of, like, literally seeking new inspiration, like, literally hitting the ground and, like, going to find it myself, because I can't find it sometimes. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna get on a plane. I'm gonna fly to Morocco, and I'm gonna go visit this obscure house. Cause I need something to fuel me, because otherwise I don't know how I'm gonna go on. And so that's why I do these books. So. And I hope then in the end, you see this collection that fuels someone else, and that's their. Theirs. Their. Their version of kind of working through, you know, finding inspiration that way. So I will say the beginning. Like, they're all very deeply personal. Like, the first book, like, I had just moved from New York to la, and I was like, what is this place? I, you know, made it. I thought, like, how easy is this? Like, a New Yorker moving to la Also as a New Yorker, you're like, I got this. Like. Like, what's harder than New York? Like, you know, New York is like the. The. The. It's. It. You know, you're working so hard, making everything happen.
I thought, like, la. I'd be like, oh, land here. I'd be like, I totally understand California. And then it turns out I didn't. I was like, what is everyone doing here? What? What? You know, the light is different there, the houses are bigger. The everyone Is, you know, waking up early and hiking and going to sleep at 10. I mean, that was not my life in New York. You know, it was, you know, there it was a whole different thing. And I wanted to expl That I was like, how did I totally misjudge that, moving in the United States? Like, that These were so different. And I was like, but. And also, how do people live differently? And then I saw how people were choosing their passion ahead of just work. Right. New York is work to me. To me. To other people, maybe not, but. And then in California, I felt like people were putting lifestyle ahead of work. And at that time, that was very new to me.
And so I really want to explore that. And I thought it was right at the phase where I was also in life, where I was like, you know, you're kind of making these decisions to pick your life. You're picking your decisions. You're choosing your job, you're choosing where you want to live, where you want your family to grow up. You're choosing your spouse or partner or no spouse or you're choosing. So it was kind of like, that was what I was interested in. And that's how surfshark was born.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: It's interesting that you say that you created your books as your source of inspiration versus what I've typically heard is that something inspires someone, and therefore the books come from that inspiration. It's an interesting tool that you kind of reverse engineered, and I find that quite brilliant. What advice do you have for designers who are looking to do the same? And I don't necessarily mean create a book. Cause I do feel like books are, like, so happening right now, and everybody's got one coming out. And if you don't, that's totally okay. If you're listening and you're like, well, I don't have a book, I love that for you.
But for someone who's looking, who's feeling like they're coming up against that, I am just seeing the same over and over again. And I'm just, like, at this block. And even on a deeper level, when you still have clients coming to you for the same, how do you push through that?
[00:15:25] Speaker A: So, luckily, I have to say that I have. I don't think I have. I do think I have some. Some elements that pull through all of my design. And I. But I don't think I have curated a look that is so distinct that you would necessarily pick it in two seconds. Like, I do think that I really flex per client and for the house. So, like, I. I Move through that. And that's really important to me. I do not want to just push out a product or just. Or just push out my design. It's about their house, their. That family or that person. And so that's my. I think that interior design should look different for everyone's house.
So whereas I might have an element or so I certainly need that family to direct the design. And that's how I get my fuel.
So that's really important. And I think everyone does it a little different. I admire designers that have this look and they pump it out and what an awesome thing also.
And people want that and then they get that, and that is also fabulous.
So I think there are different ways everyone picks their designer for in different forms and ways, and how awesome. You know, but for me, I would say that. But, you know, you have to make sure that you are finding your own inspiration. And I, And I know that everyone's like, what's your inspiration? Everyone's like, travel. And then everyone travels for like one week a year and, like, goes to Lisbon and, like, we're all fabulous. And I think that's outstanding. And I do think travel should fuel you and we should see things outside of the box. But I also don't think you should feel like that has to be. That's not the only fuel. Like, there is inspiration every day, no matter what. Like, you know, go take a Saturday and go to the art museum, sit in the public library.
You know, downtown LA has one of the most historic, you know, public library systems in the country. Like, go sit there. It's crazy. They have painted murals on the ceiling. I don't know, you can find it everywhere and then. But just make time for it or at least be aware of it and give. Make space for it. You know, we're always on our screens and phones. Like, I think nothing can take away an experience of sitting somewhere new or seeing something.
And the inspiration is not coming just from Pinterest, Instagram, all of those things. It's not there.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so easy to get caught up in those tools because they are literally in your hand and it's like force fed to you all the time. But I love the idea of kind of just being a tourist in your own city. And like, yes, not everybody can go to Europe for months, months a year, even weeks a year.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: You have to wait for that, like, trip to make, get your inspiration. Like, watch four, like, cool movies, like a Fellini movie, whatever, you know what I mean? Like, go on a weird Italian old movie. Tour, you know, Vida, you know, just do things for yourself that. That are exciting, so that are inspiring.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: So your firm handles, as we've said, a really wide range of project types and styles. How are you structuring your team to support that variety? Can you walk us through, like, what your team looks like, what the corporate structure looks like, and how you kind of delegate projects amongst that?
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Well, it's interesting you ask, because we're really in it right now. You know, our team, unfortunately, just recently, like, kind of contracted a little bit. We were four. We have someone out on medical leave, and so there are three of us here hustling every single day. We've got eight projects. We have a hotel. We have. We have a home in Aspen and Carpinteria and New York City and Kiawah island and Hancock park. And we've got. We are doing it, the three of us. So I have to say, it's wild. The good news is that everyone that I work with is incredibly talented and awesome.
And I think that. I think we work as a team. And so I think that separating out right now where everyone has their exclusively their own project isn't really possible when the team is so small. So we are. We're kind of all helping each other, and that is actually a really nice place to be. That doesn't work as the projects get bigger, because then I think that gets complicated. But right now, we're acting as, like, a collective studio, and it's really, really nice, you know, so that's exciting. It's challenging, though. You know, we have sometimes projects. You hope that those projects are all kind of hitting at different levels of completion, where there's kind of gets quiet and it kind of gets busier. We're kind of at a zone where a few things are hitting at once, and it's a little panicky, but we got this. Like, I've been through this a bazillion times, so I know. Whereas even. Even if it gets a little wild, we can make our way through it. Also, if anyone out there is a junior designer and wants to apply, feel free.
[00:20:07] Speaker B: I was gonna ask if, like, hiring.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: So, like, help me. It's emergency.
And so we're looking for people, junior designers to come join the team. I'll even, you know, if you're a senior designer pro, like, come at me. I just. We need help. So that's what's happening right now. But at the meantime, we're also. It's okay.
[00:20:27] Speaker B: We're doing it, so I will absolutely. I'm gonna email you Separately and we'll put your job listing in the show notes for anybody who's listening.
Yes, absolutely. In a perfect world, if like budget wasn't a concern and you're literally just drawing up your ideal studio, how many people are on that team? Like what is like the studio of your dreams is how big?
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Under 10. And I really do not want more. And I, I know some people want big, some people want like a 50 person firm, like roll in. I like certainly don't want that. I actually love what I do so much that I actually want to do it. Every day I'm here, I'm like show up. I'm doing this. It's so fun. Some days there's like a little weird days get sprinkled in. But generally speaking this is fabulous. So I'm here for it. So I don't want the team to get too big. I don't want to be a manager. I actually dislike like some of like kind of like the, the, you know, the day to day operations stuff. That's not really, I don't thrive there and, and I don't, I don't want to do that. I used to get pushed into that role a little bit and it's like when I was running my shop and I found that that's just not where my zone is. Like I'm not, I'm not, that's not where I want to be. So really for me, like if I had if 10 highly functioning designers that were. And then we're choosing our projects like the projects. It's really about the choosing the projects, it's not the volume. So we are really specific on how we take our projects and who we take on. We don't take every project that comes our way and we vet them just like we do.
Just like hopefully clients vet us, you know, so that's where we're at.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: That sounds like an amazing place to be where you get to choose your projects. And I know not every designer listening is in the point where they can say no to things that don't feel like a great fit. So I'm curious how, how do you, at what point in your 20 years of doing this do you feel like was kind of the pivot where you got to start saying no. What can you like, can you credit any specific benchmarks in your career that felt like that's when the shift happened?
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So like I, and I want to say that I, I really, there is a point, there is certainly a period where you are saying yes to everything. Like you take A room, you're like, that's not even a nice room. That room might not even have a window. You design that. You design the hell out of that room. You know what I mean? Like, it really. You. You know, your friend asks you to design, like, something that totally Their grandma's entry foyer. You do it like, you just get in there. So I think it's really, really important that in the beginning that you're really saying yes. Those things serve you in so many different ways. Maybe not financially, but that's gonna show you experience. It's gonna sharpen some tools that you probably have in your. That you haven't sharpened. It's gonna tell you. It's just gonna help you learn as yourself, as a designer, what your strengths and weaknesses are, what you gotta work on a little bit more. You can just say yes to every single project that goes on for years. That's like a solid decade of just saying yes. Like, you know, the room might turn into, like, a house, but that house might be, like, not great. Like, you might not. You might end up, like, leaving it. And, like, you can't even photograph it. I'm telling you, it is a journey. It's like 10 years, hard years.
But you know what? At the end, you just. There's a certain point where you decide. You know what I feel like I have to decide who, how I'm going to structure my year. It can't. I cannot just say yes to all. You'll realize you can't take 20 small projects because that's way more work than just doing two large ones. And the two large ones are more satisfying and financially make more sense.
So that's, I think, the turning point when you realize that you have so many of these smalls that you really start to have to take the bigs. And then at that point, that's the dream. So, you know, once they start to get a little bit bigger, the projects, that's when I feel like you can start to say no, because you do have to leave room space in your studio so that new projects can come in. You can't be so busy that you cannot take another project.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, Nina, you just mentioned your store and how that you kind of had started with that. Can you walk us through what that. That storyline looked like with the store and how that kind of evolved?
[00:24:34] Speaker A: The Cutie store, I loved it. So, you know, I was working in interior design in New York City, and I like, right after school I graduated, I went right into a big architecture firm. And at that Architecture firm. You know, truly, it. Mostly I remember it was an enormous architecture firm. There were two floors of architects, like just at people at their desk. I will say it was heavily men and that there were very few women in the architecture firm. This was in early 2000s. And so I was like, you know, I remember there was an interior department and I kind of got jammed in there. They were like, oh, go grab some fabrics. Because like, you know, I was a girl. So just, you know, when the fabric alignment, it never came out, like, I don't know, I ended up as like the fabric girl for like a year. And I just was like putting fabrics away from like an entire year. Anyway, I kept working there and I worked my way up to being a senior designer. I actually left, got a few projects on my own by saying yes to everything.
And then one big project came along. And by big, I just mean like, you know, a five bedroom in New York City. But at the time that's as big. That doesn't. I mean, that's a big project. So I completed that project successfully. But at the end of that, I was like, oh, I had built this little nest egg and I was like, I, I'm. I. I always dreamed of opening a design store. I just thought having a presence on the street would be fabulous. I just love being the idea of being, you know, having this footprint in New York City, the city that I love so much.
And, you know, it was also, it was also a mission to kind of get my name out as a brand and so, and also as a way of sourcing new clients. So it started to become like this bigger marketing thing. Not just like this. I have a store and I'm going to sit in the store till the end of time. It was like, I'm going to have the store have cool products that I'm sourcing, and then those cool products will be listed in Martha Stewart magazine. And then people might see house interior 10 times in a year in gift guides and that might be brand recognition. And then I'm sitting in the back of this store and someone comes in for a small rug and I'm like, I pop up out of the back and I'm like, hey, you need help with that rug? I'll place that rug for you. What do you got? You know, and then I'll do their, their apartment. It was like a constant mission to kind of use that as a tool. I loved my time in New York City. It was amazing. You know, I had that store for eight years, which is shocking. I can't even I did for feel like, so long. I like, think back and I'm like, oh, my God, I had a store in here. I did it for eight years. It was so cool. You know, the thing that kind of brought me down at the end was like, the actual running of a store, which is so much work. Retail is like, crazy. Like, you are constantly on. You're sourcing nonstop. You know, just setting up a window display is like. It's like, takes days. Like, just the amount of work a retail store is, is shocking. And I slowly. My interior design business was growing so much that I could not maintain the retail side. And so that's when I decided to kind of stop up. I love that store. It was so cool.
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Did you office out of the store as well?
[00:28:25] Speaker A: I did, I did. So, like, if you came into the store, like, I. Then at first it was me maining the point of sales and like, so you could come in and, like, do it. And then all of a sudden I was like, I got. I got work. I'm going to work in the back here. And then, so I had someone else, but then the people would see me in the back and be like, oh, can I ask your advice? And I would totally do it. And so it. And then in the beginning also, I was doing like hourly. Like, I was like, if you have pink questions, I'll come and help you. Almost like the expert. But like, very early on and. And so that's how it kind of. And then I started being in the back and then it started to kind of grow. But, you know, that leads me to my thing, which is never saying no. So, like, you know, someone might ask you for a paint color or for styling a bookshelf, but you never know where that project can take you. So just like people, I think in the beginning, you think you're just gonna get this huge project. You're not. And just take. Take whatever. It literally could be a bookshelf, but if you do a nice job, they will tell their friend or they might buy a house. And you never know where everyone ends up in life. So just. That's rule number one.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. What do you feel are some of the most pivotal decisions or risks that you've taken in your career that has really helped your studio scale to.
You know, in my notes here, I have nationally recognized firm, but, like, you guys do stuff internationally too. And so, like, what do you feel has really.
In hindsight, you're like, that was a big risk, and that was scary, but I feel like it's paid off.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: That is such a good question. Oh, what is a big risk? I mean, I feel like every day I'm taking risks. Like, every day I'm like, what is happening?
You know, I think it's the biggest risk. I mean, I think the books were. For me personally, the books were a risk on a lot of different levels because I didn't know what I was doing. And I signed up and I promised to deliver a finished book to the publisher when I literally had no idea what I was doing. You know, like, I didn't even ask another author, like, for advice, which is so weird. Like, what a. Like a nice, not. Not smart thing to do. Like, I should have just taken a author out and been like, what's it like to make a book before signing up? My point is, is like, you know, that was the biggest risk. Plus, financially, that was a risk. Like, I. You know, the amount that you're getting to make these books was, like, not fabulous. And so you're really deciding to financially commit to flying around the world on, you know, the.
The. On kind of on your own and hoping that this book works out in life. And it's a decision that you have to make. But I was doing it for two.
One was for sure for business, but the other one was really personal. And so if one failed, I still had the other one to back up on. I still was gonna get my inspiration from it. So I am glad that that's how I would look at it at the time.
So it didn't feel so scary. But it was certainly scary. I had no idea what I was doing. It's crazy.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Surf Shack was so interesting because I feel like it hit the shelves before this, like, boom of designer books. Were you approached by A publisher first, and they sparked the con?
Or were you like, I'm ready to do a book. I'm gonna go find an editor or publisher and I'm gonna get a book deal.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: You know, it's the craziest thing how this happened, but I was talking with a friend and she was like, what would you like to do in life? Like, what is it? Cause I think that day, that particular day, I was a little down on interior design. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, is this right for me? What should I be doing? And she was like, what is. What do you really want? And I was like, I think I wanna do a book. And she's like, on what? And I was like, I don't know. I was like, I think surf culture. I'm seeing, like, what's happening. It's like, all these people are so cool, and they're so confident in what they.
And they're so, like, motivated. Like, why are they waking up at 6am to go surfing? Like, I wish I had a passion like that. And we were talking about passion. I think that was part of the thing. And then she was like, you know, I love that you want to do a book. She was like, I think I know a friend of a friend, but, you know, she was like, let me just put you in touch. And then I remember this. I got put in touch with one of the editors at Clarkson Potter, and one morning I just. I wrote. Woke up and just wrote an email, like a literal email that was like, hey, I have a book idea. I would love to share it with you. It's a little bit about California surfing, but, like, around the world, I do interiors. Would love to check it. And I'm like, I don't know what I was thinking. It was not a formal letter. I think the email even had spelling word mistakes. Like, it was an emoji thrown in. Yeah, it was way. I was like, check you later. Like, it was way too casual to be sending to our editor. That was so nuts. I can't believe it to this day. And she responded and she was like, what a fabulous idea. Happy to meet with you and talk. I'm actually happened to be in California next week. And so it actually started that way in the most informal, weird way. And I actually think at our breakfast, we just talked about how much I love design and I love looking into people's homes and how people live. And I think she caught that enthusiasm and she was like, let's give this girl a chance. She wants it so bad. Let's see if she can do it. And yeah, that was kind of the thing. So she took a risk on me, and I took a risk on writing her an email that was incredibly casual and weirdly, like, not formal. And I look back and I'm like, cause now I see how it works. Like, I then got a book agent and she writes, like, these, like, gorgeous things. And I was like, oh, that's how it's done. So, like, I don't know what I was doing.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Once again, I think it's such an important lesson that I've learned over, you know, my career as well, is it's a reminder that the people on the other side of your pitch, your email, whatever it is, are still just people. And sometimes that very, like, personal, casual approach of remembering that, like, this isn't a big scary thing. I'm a real person receiving this. Sometimes that can be what gets someone to say, hey, that actually sounds really interesting, Nina. Let's chat further about this idea.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: You know, and I. What an amazing editor. I mean, like, she saw something in this and she decided to go for it. What an amazing choice.
Like, what an amazing person to believe in me. I'm so grateful to her to this day. But also, I do think. I agree with that. I think that there's. Once you start to get. For your first book at least if you roll in hard with an agent and all this stuff and this formal proposal, I think that then maybe I don't know this for a fact, it's maybe too formalized and you're not feeling the heart. Sometimes you just gotta go for things. And people do like to be approached. Personally, I think, like, I don't think you should, like, stalk someone to try and get their email. But if there's. If you are, if you have an in through a friend of a friend or an intro or a way to find a personal introduction that goes a long way. And that's. That's with anything in life. Right? Like, always try to find a way to connect with someone rather than just just cold emailing them or.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Yeah, while I have you on a good one, I'm gonna spitfire a couple, like, more technical, super specific questions that I like to ask everybody because it's just the stuff that you can't Google. Like, if you're listening, it's like, it's just really hard to get this information. So how do you approach pricing or structuring design fees for such a wide range of services and projects? You said you guys have a hotel, you got a project Projects, east coast, west coast, everywhere in between. Is it like from ground up construction to styling, are you doing flat rate hourly combination? You don't have to give us numbers. I'd love if you gave me numbers. But like conceptually like how are you charging and is it different throughout and what has made you settle at that being the best option for your studio?
[00:35:47] Speaker A: Yeah, so we, you know, we. Every project is different and so you really have to understand the scope of work before diving into your project proposal. And I think that if you're just trying to get something out or you just like, you're just like made up a number in your head that's not going to work and clients see that and no one feels good about that. And guess what, you've probably underestimated that number already.
So I think doing it really, like really properly is really important. So you have to figure out your system and you have to take a lot of things into account. You have to take into account where you are. Like how involved are you going to be. Are you literally liaising with the architect or are you doing this on your own? Are you project managing or are you just leaving it kind of up to the contractor and the client is, are you doing really just soft finishings or not? And then are you, you know, how long is this project going to take, how many site visits am I going to do and where in the country is this thing? So if it's down the block and you know, and it's super easy, then great if you know. And I also think you have to take into account not much, but you do have to take into account a little bit about how fast moving and fast paced this project is and what the expectations are from the client. So some clients are really like wanting like literally everything down to the gu garbage can in their laundry room. And then other clients are like just get me to bedding and towels and I got the rest from here, that's okay too. So you know, it's really about just really listening, understanding what they want and then setting up your proposal to do that and then anything beyond that start to set up additional structures to kind of hold you. So I do do flat fee and it that helps me in a couple levels, which is one is I understand what my gear looks like. So I then have the ability to flex within that. I know how many people are on how many more projects I can take on, how many projects I don't need to take on.
You know, all the overhead is kind of taken care of. This is that's the magic of flat fee. The flat fee also kind of comes when there's a lot of dead space.
So when there's a long period of time when you're brought on and you're doing design work where you're not doing purchasing, where you also mark up on you that you need to somehow get paid, the flat fee is kind of holding you in that zone. And it also kind of covers you right when the project kind of lulls and kind of flexes. It also allows me to not make it so that it's about the purchases. So if a client starts to feel like, ooh, I have to scale back on my furniture budget because we've really, like, gone a million over in construction costs, you know, I'm not sitting there and crying in my hands because they've changed their mind. I'm not here to push anyone out of their financial comfort zone. So if they've changed the budget, I'm going to go with it.
It. That is actually. That would be hugely problematic if I only worked off of a markup, and so that's when the project would fall apart. But that's their. Those are their decisions. So I'm not. I'm really kind of taking that out of the equation. When I'm doing a flat fee. I also find hourly, like, just not feasible, because I personally do not want to have conversations about money. I don't want to talk about the fact that it took me 8 hours to source the sofa.
And I find that as designers, we devalue ourselves very quickly when we get even the slightest amount of pushback. I know that, like, if, you know, I used to start off doing hourly, and I was like, ooh, she just bought that sofa. There's no way she's gonna be down with this, like, six hours of additional work. So I'm gonna make it four, because that number sounds a little bit better. I literally just would cheat myself out of, like, making money just by internally.
Like, they didn't even push back yet, but I couldn't even send out the invoice. I think people do that all of the time with hourly because they're afraid of having the money conversations.
Therefore, I'm not there for it. And everyone knows upfront what the fee is. Also, how else are you supposed to understand the project as a whole unless you know what your fee is? The client, like, the client needs to know, okay, I'm paying this architect this amount, I'm paying the contractor this, and I'm paying the designer that.
I have control over my project now, and I would want it that way if I was the client. So that works for us.
But I let everyone choose. You know, it's a risk because you can. You. Only with experience will you know that your flat fees are either too high or too low. And the too low is a really big problem because you could be a year into this, two years into this project and be like, oh, I really messed up this one. And you're basically working for free.
So you have to know what your numbers are. And so if you're not comfortable talking big numbers and you end up in an hourly zone, just. That's okay, too. Just get ready for, you know, stay strong. Stay strong. Yeah.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: So are your team. I feel like, as you said, it takes experience to get to the point where you're able to put together a flat fee proposal. Are you still internally tracking your time so that you can be, like, benchmarking and say, hey, this flat fee is still in the right zone? Or are you, like, gut checking? Like, how are you making sure that your flat fee is still profitable?
[00:40:42] Speaker A: That's a great question. I'm gut checking. I am not running numbers, and I don't ask designers to check their hours. I. I don't want anyone to feel disparate. We're not lawyers. Like, I don't know. There are those programs where everyone's, like, tagging their hours. Like, that is time that is wasted also. And I think for me, that's. I tried to do that, and I remember it was so dispiriting. Like, I felt so sad. I was, like, checking in and, like, at the end of the day, and I was just like, I. I think that for the creative process, you need to have some freedom. Freedom. And so that is. That doesn't work for me. I also do not tell designers, like, enough. Do not look for any more hooks. I would not do that, because you know what? I bet you the better hook is out there. So if you need an extra hour, you find that hook, you know, so that I. The mission is really to do our best work, and if that takes more time, then just go for it. I. That is just, you know, we have to get things done. So actually, our workload is preventing us from going too far. Like, at a certain point internally, we're like, well, we gotta move on, because we have to pick the sofa today. And so we find the best of. But I think that's. That's how we do it, and it works for us. And every studio is different, though. You really have to decide what's right for you and I.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: If you, yeah, if you, if you are working on your flat rate proposal, are you just like a general blanket ballpark? Are you. You think, are you coming up with things based off of I anticipated taking us this long, or are you basing it off of, like, a percentage of a total project cost? Like, how. What is your thought process to come up with that flat fee?
[00:42:16] Speaker A: It's actually more time than it is. It's not on the percentage of the house. I actually don't even ask those questions. I. I mean, I, I certainly want to hear what their budget is, but I would never say, like, oh, you're doing a $6 million bid. I'm getting 15% of that. And I know that's how architects sometimes work. Cause at the about approximately how much hours they need to do for something like that, that just doesn't work because it's actually, quite frankly, it's totally different per project. So, like, some designers are. Some clients are asking us to pick the door fixtures and like, all the, all the materials and, you know, do lighting plans, and some are leaving that to the architect, and we're just doing the custom millwork and the furniture. So. So that hard number would be really challenging to work with, and I think it would. I don't know. I know a lot of people that do it. I just have never gotten there myself personally.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: And so with your flat fee model you mentioned, like, have a really clear understanding of what the scope is and I assume have a really clear contract or service agreement so that once it gets past what was initially agreed upon in this flat number, then there is some other option for billing back. So you don't get. Get into that. We're. We're three years in, and you're like, oh, my God. Our $100,000 design fee is long gone at this point.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Totally. So in my contracts, I have a couple things, a couple, like, little things that are really clear. I have very clear scope of work delineated in there. So if I am catching along the way, things are falling outside of that scope, I say, hey, that's not in our original scope. We'd love to get that done for you. But it is kind of falling in this category. And now we're crossing into hourly work to capture that. And then sometimes the client will be like, great. And sometimes we're like, oh, oh. And then they take it off your plate, which is actually kind of what you want because you're so in it.
Right? And then the second part is, is there. I Do have a clause in my contract that says if you know you're past a certain date, like, you know, I happen to have 18 months and it's through no fault of us, that means that we have delivered everything on time and it's really a construction delay or if it's something else or like the clients put a pause on it or there's a permit issue and the pause happens.
At that point, we then start to bill additionally, because we are past a certain point. So we can't have a project that drags on for three years. We just can't.
[00:44:38] Speaker B: You had mentioned that like, oh, the, the logging of the hours and tagging everything. It's such a pain. It is such a pain. But I'm worried, I'm concerned. I'm questioning how with a team of three of y' all, what softwares, if any, like, what, what are your communications T types and how are you collaborating so successfully with your team of three? Like, are there softwares you use? And like, is it literally because we're sitting on each other's lap and they're like able to see. Tell me how that happens.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Okay, so, so great that you ask these questions. You know, we, I have done in life, Design manager, studio, webware, like all of those guys, once again, I personally do not work with them. I have found a couple of reasons why. Is because I find that my bookkeeper who's kind of out of the office but works with us very closely, she is double doing double entries. And for me that doesn't work there. It's very hard to do accounting via these two things. And it is just. I don't understand why, I don't know why someone cannot invent something that feels a little easier so we don't use those programs. And there was something when someone said there was like, oh, it's like about. It's like just like having a meeting meeting to have another meeting. Like you scheduled a meeting to talk about when you can have your next meeting. It's kind of like those things. I hate that in my office. So the mission is really just like we're just getting it done. We're being very hyper organized, but everyone has a little bit of a way.
We have these gorgeous spreadsheets, we have purchasing sheets, we have like specification. Like nothing is falling away, like there's no issue. But we do it our way. Because I am trying to not lock people into learning a system that feels redundant or not helpful to how they actually function. It's really catering to us as designers and Just making sure that we are designing and we're not, like, getting bogged down by some program. We are very. We sit on a big table. We have this great office space, and we just sit together, and you can see the projects are behind me. We have all of our projects kind of lining the room around us.
And so as emails come in and flow and things are happening, we're like, check in with each other. Like, hey, do you know what that. Why that fabric got delivered incorrectly? Like, what's happening? We just talk about. About it, and then we send emails. You know, we don't do. What was that program that we tried so hard to use? What teams? And then we tried. Oh, and then there was that other program, like, that. Oh, Slack. Kill me. And we tried that. I mean, I was so down for trying it again. Like, maybe it was just my attitude about it.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: I was like, girl, I'm gonna call you later. I'm like, slack will change your life. But that's okay. We're learning from you how you do it.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: I know a lot of people like Slack. I will say that at the moment, sex, not for me. I don't like it. But I could see how it functions for other people.
[00:47:25] Speaker B: Well, especially when you have your designers literally right next to you, and there is the three of y' all. I feel like when you have someone who's, you know, working from home or, like, you have all these other things, I definitely can see why it would be nice to just. Just ask me your question. You're sitting right there.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: No, totally. And I think it's really important. So something actually that's really important in my office is that I'm here every day, or I try to be, and then everyone else is like, we're really showing up for each other. Like, it's really important for us to, like, do FaceTime, and that's where things get done. Because I actually get so many emails on a daily basis, I cannot have another internal email. We're trying to work it out face to face. So that's the magic of being all together. And I love that. That's like, back to my studio days. Like, we all worked it together.
I just. I love that. How lucky.
[00:48:09] Speaker B: I don't want to end our conversation without getting to talk about Mountain Home, which is your third book. I know we talked a lot about the beginning of your authorship with Surf Shack and then into Biblio Style, and now your more recent release of Mountain Home. What have you learned about the process of publishing and how does it integrate into Your marketing plan.
[00:48:27] Speaker A: What have I learned about making books? So much, you know, the art of making a book. I mean the amount of people that takes to make a book is shocking. And everyone has a little bit of a different motivation or focus.
And so it's really important. I mean the end goal is to make an awesome book. But you know, you're working with a publisher and the in house designer there and they have different views. They have like 10 books on their plate. For me, it's the most important book of like my entire life. You know, the photographer is really there to do his very best, but it's also his artwork. You know, the writer is struggling to fact check, you know, because it's really hard to do that in like 18 different languages. So. And like legally we have to. So everyone's like on it. There's so many people involved in making a book. It's like wild. And so one is just really being make sure that you're focused not on just the making of the book, but really making sure that everyone involved in the making of the book is being kind of taken care of in the sense that what their focus is is being heard and that you are making sure those are being kind of that will happen. And also really try, try your hardest to make it a nice experience because it's stressful and it's hard, but it's like, otherwise why are we doing this? You know, it's really important. And so I love that Mountain House. I'm so. I could not be more proud of that book. I actually think it's like a sleeper hit. I think it's just, it's, you know, it came out last year and it's actually now like under like one of the top 10 design books at the moment on Amazon charts. I'm so proud of it. I would say that I really tried to go at a different level this time. I think Surf shack was very chill and relaxed and kind of get gave a like a easy breezy lifestyle. I would say Mountain House starts to feel a lot. Little bit like its title, a little more elevated in the sense that maybe it is, you know, it's not like so simplified design. It feels kind of like a couple steps higher.
And it was just a remarkable book to make. But these people are, were so driven. I mean like people were living in places where garbage had to be helicoptered out on a daily basis. Like, you know, you have to these. The commitment level once again to living a certain lifestyle is incredible to me. And I love obsessing over It. And so I hope these mountain homes give you a point of view of something that people feel passionate about, which is nature and then pushing their boundaries and being uncomfortable.
Sometimes it's uncomfortable. Mountain houses, right. But making something really beautiful about it. And I just think that after, like, Covid and all of that hit, I think we were all yearning for this concept of being disconnected. And there's something that kind of is true in Mountain House about that, for sure. And then also to try and break the stereotype of what your mountain house is. Like, my rules were no antler chandeliers. Like, I didn't want to see one. There's not one in the book. I don't think.
Double check. There might be, like, one snuck in, but the mission was, like, not one to be found. And it was really to kind of pull back from that, you know, like, Log Cab. Like, that aesthetic that I feel, like, just kind of permeated. Like, no flicates. Like, I just really wanted a different look. And that Mountain House is like, what is that archetype that it could be kind of broken open and that we're talking about on a lot of different levels? You know, that was the mission there.
[00:51:45] Speaker B: Amazing. I'm dying to know, are you already working on your next book?
[00:51:49] Speaker A: Isn't everyone asking? I've gotten questions. You know, I have to actually work on the idea.
You know, there have been a couple ideas that have been thrown at me, and I think none of them have been, like. Like, my gut has not been like, if I don't make this book, I will, like, pass away. I. That's how I felt with, like, Mountain House. I felt like it was always in me, and I had to make it. I don't think I have that feeling at this very moment about a certain topic, but I am still brainstorming. There are a few that are rising a little bit to the top. And then also, I truly. We have so many projects coming up. I hope I photograph them all. And really, I would love a monograph out.
So I. This is not the end of the. There'll be so many more books coming from me.
I just. Mountain House, really, you know, we traveled to, like, I think it was, like, literally 14 countries in nine months with, like. I mean, we really. We. We took it over the top that I just needed to be like, okay, what's next? It might be, like, my block that I live on. I might just go to my neighbors and be like, do you mind if I photograph the inside of my. Your house?
[00:52:52] Speaker B: Because this is honestly would be so cool.
That would be so cool. I've always thought it was. It would be cool to go. Go visit houses of interior designers around the world. That's always been my book idea. Like, what does it look like in the house that you live in?
[00:53:07] Speaker A: I feel like people do. I feel. Have you seen. I always love that artist 1. There is a couple out there. But I do think that's really interesting. Actually the problem with that is that interior designers actually also have already published their houses. So you've all been, you're just dealing with like republishing in a book, which is great. Also fabulous. But then you're just Republican publishing.
[00:53:27] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. I am curious what advice you have to give designers who want to build a body of work that feels cohesive but allows for evolution and allows for its inhabitants to shine. How do you. In this market, in this world that we live in, of Instagram and Pinterest, how do you continue to let your clients needs lifestyle style shine through while growing your career as a designer?
[00:53:58] Speaker A: Well, I think that a couple of things. One is I think if you take, if you start to do. I think if you take things into your own hands a little bit, it's more work. But if you start to design, include more of your own design furniture or your custom design millwork or do built ins, you're automatically setting a palette that will then respond to the client. But you're already kind of in there already. You're so entrenched in that that there's no way that your feelings cannot come through. Right. Purchasing a sofa. Sofa, it could be anyone's sofa. So that doesn't need to be. That's not your common thread. But if you start to take control over some more of that work, that's a big deal. So instead of buying the sofa, custom it. If you, instead of buying the. Or the dining table, if that's easy because the combination of upholstery is too challenging. I get it. It's so much extra work, right? You're not making money. It's much easier to buy that nice dining table. But if you start to design and have good craftspeople, that's where you're going to kind of start to permeate through really easily and that will start to evolve and kind of push through all of your design.
And I think also certainly, like, I think going back to your, your favorites, I don't think you should repeat things, but I do think that you're like, there are moments of success that you can recognize in your past projects. And using that forward and saying, oh, that. That actually worked out great. Like, in one of my projects, we. This is such a simple design, but we decided to do the seat cushions different than the back cushions on a sofa. And weirdly, it made this, like, kind of ordinary sofa that I was, like, questioning and felt nervous about, but it was kind of a requirement for the family. It made it, like, 10 times more interesting.
And it's. You know what? It's a lot harder. I had to source two fabrics that look good together, both in stock, both that ship to the thing, go over there to them and explain them and which pillows go which, where, and, like, the whole thing. And so, like, that is, like. That is, like, you know, you have to decide that you want to do something like that. But those moments really make a big difference. And then ultimately, like, the biggest lessons I can have is like, stick with one photographer or two in your career portfolio. In your portfolio career, do not go to, like, the trendiest photographer. Like, just stick with someone. Stick with someone you like to work with that you love, that you feel like understands your design or appreciates it, makes you feel good and that, like, rolls out with some gorgeous photos. Stick with that person. Because when you're ready, then in the future to show your portfolio, it will look cohesive. That's what I did with all. The reason why some of Surfshark and Mountain House work is because we actually kept the same photographer and worked with him every single house. So even though those houses vary so dramatically in style, the point of view is the same, and that's from the photographer, and that is the common thread throughout the project. And that's really important when doing. Trying to show cohesiveness.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: So amazing. Nina, this has been fabulous. I've so enjoyed hearing your creative process, your business side of things, and just kind of how you are committed to being a creative in the way that creativity feels good for you. I think that we can get so caught up in, like, next big thing, grow our studio, land, the next biggest project, you know, get whatever. I mean, obviously, you have fabulous book deals, you have fabulous rug collections and other collaborations and everything. But what I heard through and through in this conversation is that it's about what makes you feel fulfilled and what inspires.
[00:57:14] Speaker A: Inspires you for sure. And I think start there and keep, you know, you can take it from wherever. But I think just really make sure. Take care of yourself in this business, you know, and make sure that you're feeling inspired and make your days, you know, magic.
[00:57:28] Speaker B: So thank you so much Nina and I hope we get to talk very.
[00:57:30] Speaker C: Soon for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon.
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[00:58:32] Speaker B: Are you running your design firm with a patchwork of tools? Materio brings it all into one intuitive system. Finally, try it free at getmaterio.com and get 50% off your first month as an Interior Collective listener. That's G E T M A T.
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