[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hi, welcome back to this next season of the Interior Collective. I am your host, Anastasia Casey, and today's guest is someone whose career I have admired for years, the incomparable Corey Damon Jenkins. As principal and CEO of Corey Damon Jenkins and Associates, Corey has built an internationally acclaimed design and architecture firm with recognized for its fearless layering of color, pattern and texture to create spaces that are nothing short of iconic. From being named to The Architectural Digest 8100 and El Decor, a list to launching best selling coffee table books, globally recognized licensing collections, and a masterclass viewed by millions, Corey has redefined what it means to build a design business with both creative vision and commercial success. His work spans residential and hospitality projects across the US and beyond, yet his ethos is always the same for putting the client's personality and lifestyle at the center of the story. In our conversation, we're diving into the moments of triumph and challenge behind the scenes. From scaling a team and developing product lines to building partnerships that feel authentic and lasting, Corey shares what it takes to stay creatively energized while leading a growing firm, why education and mentorship remain so central to his mission, and what he can expect from his highly anticipated second book, Design Reimagined, launching this fall. This is a conversation about design, yes, but it's also about legacy, resilience and the courage to evolve. We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective Podcast episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions.
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If you've been listening to the Interior Collective for a while, you probably have heard all kinds of software recommendations and maybe even tried a few. But if your system still feels kind of all over the place, I totally get it. That's exactly why I wanted to share Materio that's M A T E R I O. It's an all in one platform built just for interior designers from to install and everything in between. You can try it for free at getmaterio.com and Interior Collective. Listeners get 50% off their first month hi Corey, welcome to the Interior Collective. I am so honored to have you here. I'm still pitching myself when your team reached out to join the show. Thank you for being here.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me. How are you?
[00:02:52] Speaker B: I'm doing great. I'm actually surprised that it's cooler here in Austin than it is in New York City today.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: Oh, my God, yes. You know, they just recently recategorized New York as a, a subtropical environment.
That's how hot it is here now. So we've got a new category of heat advisory because with the concrete kind of baking in all the heat, of course, whatever your beliefs might be about the environment, it is hotter here than ever before. So, like right now it's like 99, 98 degrees, but a real feel like 105. So it's just really insane. So.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah, and none, I mean, most of those buildings aren't equipped for that. Most of those buildings don't have ac, so.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: Oh, it is the worst. But. But, you know, we'll be wishing for this weather in about maybe eight weeks from now, so we'll hold on to it for as long as we can.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Corey, you've had an absolutely astonishing, notable career over the course of the last 10 plus years.
What has been one of your most memorable client challenges and how did you turn it into a win?
[00:03:58] Speaker A: I think many of our projects have some sort of challenge. It's the rare situation where a project does not have something. You know, so much of what we have to do as the interior designers is really more driven by the human interaction, and that is what drives any sort of conflict.
Unlike lawyers who are governed by the bar, or doctors who go to school for residency, we don't really have a bar of ethics or, you know, anything like that in the interior design industry. Our entire field is governed by really opinion. Yes, we can go to school to learn about code and architecture and design, but as far as the outcome, it's all driven by opinion. So in that case, you're going to have more conflicts, whether it be with your contractors who think they know better than you do, or your architect or your client. Everyone's being governed by mostly their opinions, and everyone has one. So I can't really pinpoint one particular one that was more of a difficulty to match because they all, they all are there. And I think the biggest thing is making sure that you walk away from the conflict with respect, with dignity.
We have a very strict clause in our contract, a letter of agreement that prohibits clients from being unkind or mistreating our staff or myself. That goes down to language and how we articulate ourselves in meetings. We are not doctors. We are not delivering babies or doing life saving surgeries. The most we're going to be concerned about is making sure that somebody, someone does not electrocute themselves in their home or, you know, something else like that. But aside from that, there's no situation that is worth compromising human dignity and respect and kindness. So in that particular respect, every project has a set of challenges. It's more about how we manage it. And we always try to do so with humility, kindness and with a certain level of firmness towards a defense of our respect as human beings.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Hmm. That's so wise. Corey. I'm curious if there ha. If there has ever been a situation where you had to like refer back to that clause in your agreement.
How have you found the best way to do it? Is it like having your studio director, like a third party go in and interject? Is it you talking to the team? Like, how do you find that resolve to, like you said, be firm with what you both agreed upon and really stick to it? Because we all want to appease our clients and we want them to be happy. And I think the, the nature of that is to go ahead and let ourselves take the brunt of it. So, so how do you navigate that? Have you found having a third party kind of interject or you refer back to that clause so that it can be handled and just move forward?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: So that's a great question, Anastasia. I think I, I prefer to delegate as much of this as possible to, to people who are in charge of my firm to manage those types of conflicts. We have attorneys on staff. I'd rather not bring her in. That's like a very, very last resort. That's very, very rare. But we prefer to kind of manage it within our own orbit.
I do find though that sometimes, whether it be a client or a contractor, the heaviest weight does come from the principal. And so there are times when I do have to have that conversation.
I prefer to have a commendation sandwich whenever I'm dealing with, with anyone, whether it be a member of my staff or clients or contractors. When you're giving basically a sandwich, you have two buns and meat right in the middle. So bun number one is commendation. You're doing great. I'm really enjoying our work together. And then the meat is, okay, here's where we have a concern, here's where we have a challenge, and here's where I need you to stop doing this because it's actually in breach of our letter of agreement.
And then we have another bun of more accommodation. And I'm so excited about continuing to work with you and to make this home a spectacular gym in your neighborhood. Right. So you don't just come at them with, you're horrible, and this is what you did wrong. You need to cushion that because you don't know what they're dealing with.
I remember we had a client once that was having clearly a very horrible day, and she really unleashed on my staff. And mistreating my staff is as badly as mistreating me. They are the apple of my eye. So if you touch them, you touch me. And so I gave her a phone call and said, listen, I know what you're going through. You're having clearly a very bad day. That does not.
Yeah. That doesn't give you the coverage to mistreat our team that way. And you promise in your letter of agreement that you wouldn't do this. So this is a partnership. And I just want to kindly, but also tactfully, but firmly remind you that this is what we agree to, and we cannot continue to have that type of mistreatment or abuse.
I think most people, Anastasia, can relate to that. No one wants to work in a toxic environment.
And so my job is to protect my staff from those types of situations. And so clients are often business people. They get it. They don't always realize that they're the ones perhaps that are, you know, projecting that on. And then I have a talk with my staff. Did you do something to incite the client to go off on you that way? Did you double check? Did you cross your T's and dot all your I's? Is there an area where you could improve? There's usually. It's usually a combination of all of the factors because we're all humans that kind of begets these outcomes. And as long as we remain humble and kind and decent towards one another, 99.9% of the time, the outcome is always positive for everybody involved.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: I know you're based in New York City, but you do projects all over the world. And so I'm curious if there has been a project that has just felt like a total celebration, like start to finish. It was just perfect. And if there was anything in particular you could note that was like, you know, we did it this way. And I think that caused a lot of that success.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: We are recently wrapping up the first season of our YouTube television show, Design Reimagined. And the wonderful client, Erica Fay Jones, who was the focus of that first season, I think is a great example of what your. You're referring to Anastasia. She knew what she wanted. She's a powerful woman. She understands life in a way that most people I think sometimes don't when it comes to interior design and understanding and being very decisive of what the process is about.
She came into the project knowing what this project needs to look like. But she was also very kind and easy to convince because she didn't have a diva type attitude about her. She was happy to delegate because she's a very busy woman. She travels the planet and so she doesn't have the time to be deep in the weeds sometimes with us on the details. And yet there are certain situations where she really did want to be in the details. And so her whole approach is about partnership, which is what I come to every project with. And so I think when you watch that first season, those seven episodes, you see how we come together as partners developing this home for her. And I think the results really speak for themselves. It's a joyful, exuberant, colorful interior. It really speaks to who she is. But I think we got there because we both respected each other and we respected the process. And there may have been times where she was calling me really late. I remember we had one conversation at midnight about a change she wanted to make in the family room with the wall covering. It turned out to be for the better and it took humility on my part to accept that request and not be a know it all because clients do have a worldview and we need to respect that as professionals.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: We are going to get into your media projects, your masterclass later in the show. But since you brought it up on the YouTube series, I'm curious when how you found this dream ideal, decisive, creatively intuitive, but also not too in the weeds. Client in the order of operations in a media production like this is it like we had the client and then we, you know, pitch the show, produce the show or we knew the show was coming and we had a wait list of clients. And I'm curious how others can find an amazing client like that whether they're planning to produce a show or not.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Well, I think it's everything everywhere all at once as it is with my firm. It's never really a plan. It's kind of like, oh, this is now happening and now we're going to pivot and make this happen.
I have been in talks with Goodbye Pictures who is the multi Emmy and Peabody award winning production crew that produced this series with us. You've seen their work on million dollar decorators Dream Home Makeover with Shay McGe Project Runway.
They've got the Emmys and the awards to prove their value in the Hollywood realm. And they had approached me about doing a television show before and I was happy to do that. And we actually had a great deal signed with a certain massive major streaming network.
We had a deal, we were about to start filming and then there was a complete overhaul with the creative team at that streaming giant. And out with that team went all of the 22, 23 shows that had been signed up for for that particular network. So we were one of those shows that kind of got cut because new regime, new day, new ideas. But my relationship with Goodbye Pictures endured beyond that moment. And so it was actually Rich Bai's idea, our executive producer, to say, you know what? There isn't a design show in the YouTube channel world that is a 4K quality television level story. We don't have that right now. You have designers who are using their iPhones and other technology to kind of do like a self help type thing, but an actual Netflix or Hulu level show, Anastasia for design. It's a category. We don't have that. And I want to be the first person to do it. Are you interested? And I said, absolutely.
So we started talking about what does that narrative look like? How do we make this show something that would be appealing to people, have some drama, some comedy, some tears, some emotions, and not be soap opera ish. But also authentic. Right. Not like certain networks who say that we did the entire house in two weeks for 500 bucks. We're not going to do that. This is an 18 month multimillion dollar project.
And just so happened that I was working with Erica. Her house had not begun demolition yet. It was about to start demolition the very next week. And so I said, well, listen, I had this really wonderful client. She is telegenic, she is photogenic. We're doing a massive upgrade on a historic apartment in Upper east side New York City. The budget's there to do a really spectacular design. And she's camera ready, you know, and he said, let's look at the project. And it just so happened that we had the cameras ready to roll when they started swinging the hammers. And then we just kind of documented the entire process.
So in that sense we were lucky because the project was beautiful, the client was wonderful.
But we're already working on season two and we have another client with another, we're going to be producing. We start filming, I think on the 25th of this month. So we're just lucky to have really great clients with really great projects. The situation I mentioned to you earlier, that is rare for us and I do everything I can to kind of keep it that way, you know, so.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I. That's so unfortunate of the way it happened with whatever that big streaming network was. But I'm so excited about the YouTube opportunity for, you know, honestly, far more access to, for everyone, which is amazing. On the flip side, you know, they had to move on because of a different team, different ideas, like you said. Have you ever had to walk away from a project because it wasn't aligning with your ethos? And how did you decide to make that call?
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Are you thinking, are you referring to like client projects, television show or neither.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Something, what, Something that you were like really set on, your heart was ready and you're like, let's ready to. I'm ready to do this. And then there was something in your gut and you're like, this isn't going to work. I don't know what we're going to do about this.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I walk away from things all the time.
I think it's important because life is so short. Anastasia, we're only here for a brief moment in time. I am not wasting any of my years with any situation that is toxic or uncomfortable. I remember we had a really great meeting with a couple separately. We had talked to the husband and wife separately, but we hadn't met with them in person together.
And the way how the husband spoke to his wife in front of me and my team, it was so abusive, it was so mean. And she, it was just very, very difficult to watch.
And I couldn't sleep all night that night because I was thinking, wow, if you're that comfortable in speaking with her that way in front of us as complete strangers, what happens when something goes wrong on the project or this sofa is delayed or this tile comes in cracked, you know, whatever.
What levers will you pull to get at us that way? If you can be that way with your own spouse in front of strangers. And so I declined that project and I didn't go into the details why. I just simply said we just are not a good fit. Unfortunately at this time, after further consideration. But I am responsible as chief executive of our firm to protect the mental and emotional well being of my team and as creatives.
How we behave and how we perform on our projects does communicate itself through the beauty of our work.
So we want to have a joyful environment because the clients come out of the project joyful and the homes look spectacular. So it's for their benefit that we don't work on that project and also more importantly, for the protection of my team.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: I personally just really feel, Corey, that that is your legacy in this business is just how you operate with your colleagues, with your own team, with your clients. And as you said, that's always your priority, but it just, it just, you just exude it. And it's a pleasure to, to watch.
So let's talk about growth and scaling. Let's talk about Corey Damon Jenkins and Associates and how it's evolved since you first launched in 2008 because you are such a public personality, but you are running a legitimate design firm. So what was it like when you launched back in 2008 and how has that evolved to where it is now?
[00:18:27] Speaker A: That's a great question. So 2008 obviously was at the height of the Great Recession, so there were a lot of, I think, pitfalls there to kind of navigate around. And launching a design firm in the midst of a Great recession in Michigan of all places, which is a very laid back, kind of chill, conservative state where people don't like showing off their wealth.
Not exactly the first place. You want to launch a design firm in an area that's dependent on an industry that was bailed out by the president for automotive, you know, manufacturing. Like everyone's working at some sort of plant, you know, for GMC in Detroit and I'm trying to launch a firm there. So it's like, you know, maybe not the best idea, but I was determined to make it happen. And I was a one man show at the time. Obviously you know, my story, you know, not on 779 doors during that era to find my first client.
But as we've grown, I think what I've learned is the power of delegation, recognizing the value of staying in my own lane and realizing there's great power in surrounding yourself with the right people. So right now I'm focusing on the creative direction of the company, the designs. My clients all have time with me. I'm involved with every single project that's being developed on our boards. But the legal stuff, I have a lawyer that oversees all of our contracts and letters of agreement with our clients and our partnerships. I have a different lawyer for television stuff. I have a different lawyer for licensing.
So I have different people managing those things. And all I have to do is get a synopsis from them, Anastasia, as to what's expected of me and then I slam the dotted line or I Don't. Right. My design team is spectacular, and I'm trying to train each and every one of them to be fully fledged designers that can think independently and to bring to our table the very best ideas.
I don't run my firm from a position of fear. I am not intimidated by the idea of letting my teammates get some shine in front of the client. I have no problem telling a client, you know, some so and so came up with this idea, and so and so. Why don't you share with her why you felt we should put the door here? You know, it takes nothing from me because my brand's already established, and the more you give them that limelight, the more confidence grows in them, and they bring you just bigger and better and more fantastic ideas that perhaps you hadn't even considered. So I like that environment.
And then on the. On the. On the business side, you know, we have a director of marketing and business. You've met Adam. He oversees our HR team. He oversees our accountant team. He works closely with our publicists and all of their marketing endeavors.
I get multiple synopsises and briefs every week. I have to make sure I have time to sit down and go through all of them, but I'm surrounded by an orbit of really incredible people, and that's how we're able to get so much done.
[00:21:12] Speaker B: May I ask how many designers you have on your team?
[00:21:16] Speaker A: I think right now we have five.
[00:21:18] Speaker B: Okay, great. And do you have, like, senior designer, junior designer, lead designer? Like, how do you kind of team up your. Your employees on a project? Or is it very much like we're all working on the same projects throughout?
[00:21:32] Speaker A: It's a. It's a mess. It's a lot. Start over. It's a mix and medley of both, really. We have senior designers. We have intermediate designers. We have one junior designer on staff right now, and then we have a host of interns as well. We have independent contractors. We have seven senior staff, if you will, at the center of all of it.
So everyone has their role, but we try to approach projects comprehensively as a team, and then we break out into various sessions. So let's say, for example, you have a 20,000 square foot home.
I am going to probably tackle the design of the primary spaces. The foyer, the dining room, the living room, the principal bedroom, the kitchen. You know, all those big, chunky spaces. But I may not be the one tackling all five children's bedrooms. Right. And their en suites. That's a great opportunity for my team to get involved and to learn how to specify how to source in the firm's image. And I say the firm and not my image because the clients are hiring us for the firm's image.
So that gives them opportunity and experience to spread their own wings and to come to me with options and to lay things out. And I'll tell them, okay, I love this tile.
Not sure about this wallpaper. You know, what do you. How can we do this differently? So I'm still involved, but they're the ones that are kind of going out there and making these spaces become aligned. And my hope is that as they continue to grow, Corey, Damon Jenkins and Associates will very much become like the design law firm that I've envisioned it to be, where you have partners and each partner has their own, you know, design paralegal, if you will, and all the other, you know, trickle down pyramid of staff. That's how I see us growing.
But we have to start somewhere. So I'm just starting with divvying out delegation of responsibilities.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: That's so interesting, Corey. We have an episode with Marie Flanagan, and she's built her studio in a similar way where she's like, you can have basically your own interior design business under the firm. And I just think that's so beautiful because I hear a lot from our clients and our listeners that there is this level of fear that if I, you know, train this designer, I show them everything, they know where I like to source, I teach them how we do everything, and then they want to go off on their own, and then I lose them. How? How have you kind of coached yourself through that fear and turning it into a real strength within your studio?
[00:23:58] Speaker A: Well, I think that I actually write about this in my new book. In my dedication, I mentioned that to all the creatives that are out there looking to break through and make, you know, a new beginning for themselves, remember that broken crayons still color and delays do not mean denial. And I mentioned how so many of us are struggling with imposter syndrome. So I think as designers, as creatives, many of us deal with imposter syndrome and thinking that somehow we're not good enough, we're not worthy enough or not deserving enough, and that perhaps someone will come and take away from us what we felt. So I think that we have to recognize that as creatives, again, getting back to what you and I discussed earlier, about the fact that we are governed by opinion. And so we're always worried that someone else's opinion will trump ours, right? Well, broken crayons still color delays don't mean Denial. We all are imperfect. We all make mistakes. But no one can do what I can do as a designer. I am one of a kind, and our clients know that. And even if I train my team to be the most spectacular designers, their own world view, their own experiences in life will govern the decisions that they make. And they're not gonna do it exactly as I do. And that's okay. So I think it's more. It's about having a measure of heightened self esteem. Not cockiness, but confidence, and recognizing that sometimes when you do share the limelight, people actually want to stick with you longer because you're not pushing them to the back. I think about Destiny's Child.
Michelle Kelly and Beyonce. Collectively, vocally, they achieve something that Beyonce cannot achieve by herself.
But no one's gonna question Beyonce's supremacy as a solo artist. Right? So I think that there's something to be said about being confident and knowing that you are the Beyonce of your firm. And you can also pass the microphone to your fellow designers and take the microphone back and sing in harmony as a group versus it always being about you.
But that takes a certain level of, you know, self confidence.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so again, we're going to get into media and your books and your licensing deals. But just even from the design firm perspective, to hear that you, as the principal and the CEO are doing the actual sourcing, you are doing the design work, you are doing the presentations, you are doing facetime with the clients. How are you fitting it into a day? And that's not even all of the other stuff you're doing.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Right.
I will say that virtual is my best friend. I think virtual meetings are such a blessing in our industry that technology to be able to touch base with a client, whether they are here in Europe or in the States or anywhere else, I can be with them in a moment's, you know, at a moment's notice.
So that helps quite a bit.
And really, I think not over committing yourself to deadlines that, you know, you can't meet. So if I know I'm. I'm swamped with this, that, and the other, like, really can't get to this right now. I'm going to tell the client, realistically, I'm going to get this to you in 10 days. I cannot have it to you by tomorrow. And they have to be okay with that, because if they want it to be done right, they'll need to wait for those 10 days. I want it right. They want it right. But we don't microwave anything at Corey Damon Jenkins and Associates, we bake all of our goods. So it's going to take time to watch the bread rise, if you will, to season it and then serve it. And I'm not afraid of saying that. So we have clients who are understanding, who are supportive of our process.
We do go over that in great detail during the letter of agreement signing. We go through our entire process page by page. So they knew in advance. We're not going to always be able to turn things around to you like an HGTV style, like a moment's notice. We don't work that way. That's not real life. Here are actual real life timelines that you can expect. This is going to be 10 weeks, this is going to be 25 weeks. This is going to be, you know, 95 days. We, we, we, we lay it all out so there's no surprises and no disappointments later.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: I'm curious, at a firm of your size, have you found like what a sweet spot number of projects at one time is? And obviously they're all at different phases. Some are in construction, some are your procurement. But when you're doing, like you said, 20,000 square foot homes with a team of currently five designers but looking to grow, how many projects are you guys really comfortable managing at one point? At one time?
[00:28:30] Speaker A: Oh, we've had two or three dozen at one time. Easily, easily, easily. And like you said, they're all in different phases of development.
We have in our studio we have a gigantic whiteboard which has like the whole year mapped out as far as deliverables. Client A needs this, client G needs this. And it's all identified so everyone knows what's happening and there's no blind spots.
We have weekly and bi weekly meetings with all of our clients and contractors, often via Zoom, sometimes in person, to make sure that they're all unified as far as deliverables and assets and who needs what when and where by what time. So you can actually manage quite a bit if you're organized. I do think sometimes designers are not the best business people. They're good creatives, but they're not good business people, not good organizers. And that's where I think some may struggle because they don't have the right person or persons in their, in their corner to crack the whip and say, design Team A, do you have client so and so's tile selection is done, it's due by Friday, you have three days. We have these little situations in our firm where it's like, oh my God, you're right, we have to get this done. And I think you have to have that person in your corner as a principal. You can't be the one doing all of that.
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[email protected] Interior Collective listeners receive 50% off their first month okay, let's talk licensing and product development. Because this is like the elusive magical unicorn for designers. And I feel like for so many people, you know, brick and mortar licensing deal, book deal, these are all things that feel like those feather and caps that a designer often aspires to. And so you've created licensing collections with brands like Kravit Hancock and more so many others. How do you decide what partnerships are the right fit?
[00:31:09] Speaker A: I often look at the story behind the ownership of the company.
So take for example Kravit Hancock and more Maitland Smith. The families who own those companies are. It's a family, they're family owned businesses. And so in some cases they are multi generational owner situations. So I find that I have the best relationships with licensees who have a story to tell. A lot of times their story aligns with mine in terms of struggle, overcoming obstacles, starting from nothing, building something up. If you've been just given a multimillion dollar enterprise and you didn't really work for it, it's easy for you to throw it away, to damage it, not take care of it. But if you're the one that actually built it from the ground up, it's going to be more precious to you. And that sometimes happens, unfortunately, when the founders of a company pass it on to the next generation of young people and they don't have quite the same drive or fervor for the company's success as the originals the OGs did. And then the company takes a bit of a nosedive, right? So I found that in working with like for example, the Kravit Family. We've known them for 15 years. I've sourced with them for 15 years. When I launched my firm, I didn't have a lot of clients, obviously. And it was hard to open up accounts at the Michigan Design center because all the design center showrooms back then, Anastasia, were saying, you have to have a $10,000 opening order. Well, I don't have any clients there. How can I open an account and pull samples and put together color boards and find those clients if I don't have a $10,000 opening order? And Kravit was like, you know what? We believe in you. We're going to let you open an order and just let you prove us right, you know, and.
And I think we were told a few months ago that as far as the New York area, we're one of their top customers. You know, you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars with these brands because you're not giving back to them the support they gave you when you were nobody. So when it came time to them saying, hey, do you want to do a licensing deal? I'm like, yeah, there's camaraderie there. We know each other. We trust each other. We've built this thing up, and it's like a zipper. It just comes together naturally and very organically.
[00:33:23] Speaker B: So I know that you have Adam, who manages marketing and everything. Is that the person who starts these conversations, who starts the idea of these collabs, or is it often the company that's coming to you because you have had such a long relationship with them and you're just top of mind? How does the opportunity create itself?
[00:33:42] Speaker A: It has happened both ways with Kravit. I approach them, actually, I think I post them four or five times and was told no four or five times before.
They said yes. I come to them with. With concepts and drawings and sketches. I came with a visual, you know, an idea. It just wasn't fitting their vernacular at the time for their customer base. And then I think that fifth time I came with something, they're like, okay, this is something that resonates and will resonate with our customers. So in that situation, I came to them in this situation with icol's, our new lighting collection that we're developing right now. They came to us. We have been obviously customers of theirs, but they were looking to launch their first licensing deal. And this would be on an international scale. They had, I think, over 120 showrooms around the world, with seven of them here in the States. And they wanted to kind of step into that world of licensing. And they came to us and said, listen, we want to do something special with you. Are you interested? Are you open to the idea? And we were like, absolutely. And also, here are some ideas that we have. So Adam kind of brokers those deals when they are being. When they're approaching us. And then if I'm the one kind of reaching out to them organically, I'm the one that's having that initial conversation.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: I am curious what role like your own home, your own personal design style plays in influencing your product collections. With the example of Kravit, for instance, where you're like, it took five iterations for them to be like, this is what our market is looking for. So how do you find kind of that sweet spot between, like, this is my vision and. And this is what this company is saying is going to sell, even if you know that maybe your first vision would have sold great. But, like, how do you, how do you navigate a mass market appeal, even on a very high end level, with what you are feeling creatively?
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Well, I think it's important to remember that the most important quality you can have in working with licensing is the quality of humility.
Humility trumps even creativity. Because if you're not humble and can be guided by your licensee as to what will sell with your collection, your collection will bomb. And then you're now being released early from your deal because it wasn't profitable to either party.
So you have to be able to be balanced with saying, okay, this is my vision. Now how do we translate my vision through your lens in a way that sense makes sense? So take for example, Kravit, my first collection. With them, I had a beautiful, colorful combination of chintzes and geometric prints and some other organic abstract patterns. And I wanted everything to be colorful. I wanted everything to be jewel tones. Ruby red, emerald green, sapphire blue, amethyst purple. I want all of these beautiful jewel tones. And they say, okay, yes, and, you know, 65, 70% to your collection is going to be neutrals. And I'm like, neutrals? Like, have you met me? I don't. You know, it's not that I have nothing against neutrals, it's just that why would we do neutrals when we can do so much more color? And they said, well, unfortunately or fortunately for us as a, as a company, our customers love neutrals. They're much more conservative, much more safe. Even our designers, who are our primary customers, even if they can't get their homeowners to come out of the Safe box. Even they, as designers, are a bit more ambivalent about working with a lot of color. So we're going to give you the jewel tones, and we're going to also give you 60% of your collection to be neutrals. And I'm like, okay, I trust you. You know your constituents, you know what moves and what sells. Let's follow your lead. And sure enough, the biggest stuff selling the collection of the neutrals, right?
And that's totally fine. Everyone's making money, the royalties are coming in, and everyone's happy, you know, so you have to be humble enough to recognize that they do know what they're doing, and yet at the same time, they're also being humble and accepting your vision as the licensor. And that's important, too.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: I'm curious. We can totally edit this out if you don't want to talk about it. But as we're talking about money, if you were to look at your entire umbrella brand, how. What percentage is licensing, your revenue versus design fees, plus your book deals and all of those other things.
And how do you see that snowballing in the future?
[00:38:08] Speaker A: I honestly have very little idea about that.
That is a conversation for Adam and our accountants. They are the ones that are tracking all of it. I will say this. I've been told that it's very, very lucrative. So the fact that we're moving into our second collection with Kravit now we're moving into our second fifth collection with Hancock and Moore, Maitland Smith. We are tripling the size of our collection with them in October, in fact, to the point where in High Point Market, they're moving our collection from one part of the showroom to another part, where it will be about nearly 4,000 square feet of the 33,000 square foot overall showroom space. About 4,000 of that will come to us to showcase our collection. So you've grown from this little guy to now this huge, you know, section of the showroom. So something's happening. It's selling, and we're being asked to produce more.
So I would say I don't want to be inaccurate to give a percentage, but I do know it's a very, very healthy percentage to where my. My CPA is always very happy and encouraging us to do more because it does bring in some wonderful financial dividends for the firm.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: What do you feel about the fight? I'm sorry? The time commitment. When you're looking at, you know, product development versus your interior design, to me, it just makes sense that licensing in the time to finance ratio. It's really good. It does, you know, you develop the product and it takes certainly an amount of time, but then those royalties continue forever or at least within, you know, your agreed upon term. And so how, how do you feel the time commitment is with the licensing deal? Obviously, now that you're talking about, you know, three times the size. That's a huge difference.
[00:39:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another wonderful question. I love all your questions, Anastasia. They're so, they're so thought. I love it. Thank you. It definitely requires a lot of time during the gestation period, if you will. I have to call it the creative genesis aspect. So it could be a few months of really heavy duty meetings and creative development sketches, renderings and, you know, laying it all out with the teams at their locations, going out to the manufacturer's plants and inspecting the prototypes. In fact, I'm going to be going down to Hickory, North Carolina tomorrow morning at 7am to look at our prototype for Hancock and more in person there. So there is that commitment. I'll be gone for a couple of days and then I'm back in New York on, I think, Friday or Saturday. So you're losing some time there. And then to your point, once the baby is born, it's kicking and screaming, then it's just making money on its own and. But then they come back to you to produce more. You can't just, you know, coast off of your first 15 or 20 SKUs. Your contract specifies that you have to produce x amount of SKUs every calendar year or every cycle, as they put it in your loa.
So just when you begin to relax a little bit, you're back to the drawing board. So you may have maybe five or six months of break and then you're right back at it. And then maybe eight to ten weeks you're creatively developing more stuff and then you take a break.
We do have to go to the showrooms like in High Point Market and design all those spaces. So when I go down tomorrow, I'm not going to actually see the High Point Market renovation of that expanded showroom I was telling you about. But I am going back next month to see all of that. Hang the artwork, hang the drapes, set the furniture. We specify all the fabrics and leathers and trims on everything. We do all the accessorizing to make this apartment, because that's what it's going to be. It's going to actually be an apartment look acceptable and beautiful and sellable to the designers and reps that come through the space we'll have a foyer, dining room, family room, living room, bedroom and study in this new CDJA apartment. And we're responsible for articulating every nuance of all of that. You're talking about probably six or seven dozen fabrics in orbit throughout all of those rooms, plus rugs, artwork, accessories, wall coverings, chandeliers, lamps, you name it. We have to put it all in there and make it look appealing. So, yeah, it's part of your job, it's part of your, your commitment as a licenser to produce the environment in which your product will be showcased.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Is there a product category that is still on your wish list that you would love to get to collaborate on?
[00:42:36] Speaker A: Lighting was probably the big one, but now that we have that in the bag for January of next year, I'm really excited about that category coming to fruition. I think rugs is something I still want to, you know, dabble into. Tabletop is something I would be very interested in. I would love to design gorgeous dishes and ice buckets and silverware and glasses and just all the beautiful things that you would set a table with. I would love that.
That's definitely on my, on my bucket list.
And in terms of other categories, I would love to see an expansion in wallpaper, wall coverings. I use it so much, so I'd like to see more of that. We are doing quite a bit with Kravit that's coming out later on at beginning actually of next year.
But I want to see more of that with more colorways, more patterns. And then probably, I would say probably the other thing would be outdoor, outdoor furnishings. I love what our clients ask us to do in designing their terraces at their different estates. And I love what people like Janice, Etsy and, you know, Brown, Jordan. These are all doing great things to the exterior design. I want to see us kind of take a stab at that and do our own exterior outdoor furnishings collection.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: All right, so all the brands listening, you know what's on his wish list.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: Call me, I got some ideas.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Okay. So in reality, in full transparency, there is a handful of, of household named celebrity designers out there and you're on that list.
You've built such an incredibly strong personal brand.
I have a feeling that hasn't been by accident, but how intentional has that really been versus just organically evolving?
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Very intentional, I think, because I know what it's like to deal with people who are inauthentic and unkind in our industry. When I first launched the firm, I was coming into some serious headwinds Anastasia with designers who were gatekeeping. They were like the old school gatekeepers. And they were. Some of them, not all, not even most, but enough. Quite a few were very unkind, very selfish. Like, I'm trying to get this thing off the ground. Who's your favorite wallpaper installer? Who's your favorite electrician? You know, And. And they're like, oh, well, he's so busy. He's so swamped. I don't want to bother him. But, you know, But I'm sure you'll find out. It's like, well, let him decide if he's too busy. You know, he might not be, actually, but it was about control and basically keeping me out.
And I told myself that if I'm ever successful in this industry, I get to, you know, climb the ladder up to the top. I will not pull the ladder up after me. I will leave it down for others to climb. I do think that some people leave the ladder down figuratively, but then take all the rungs out.
And so you're trying to climb up some stilts. Like, they'll say, yeah, you need a great wallpaper installer. Okay, well, duh. Yeah, I know I need that.
Who do I call? You know, I don't need stilts. I need rungs. I need a complete ladder. So I think being authentic, being down to earth, keeping it real, not talking over people and being condescending, like I said, designers often deal with imposter syndrome and feelings of not being good enough. I don't want to add to that burden. I want to help. Help my fellow creators feel better about themselves. And for our clients, same thing. They also are dealing with all sorts of negativity and toxicity. I want them to come to our creative sessions and feel enlightened and feel refreshed and joyful and exuberant, and that has to be authentic from the inside out.
So I think because of my own personal experiences, that's why it's kind of seeping through the books, the post online. I'm the one doing all the posts, so it's me, you know, so it's not like I'm delegating it out to somebody else to do Instagram or Facebook. That's all me. So it's very much real.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Wait, can we talk about that? How are you also running your own social. Like, oh, my God, you are the Beyonce of interior design. How do you have so many hours in the day?
[00:46:42] Speaker A: Well, not always during the day. A lot of times it's at night. And I'm scheduling the post to go live the next day. But I'm up there in my bed, you know, laying at, you know, 2am doing my posts. But, yeah, I may not post as frequently as I probably should. You may not see a post from me for two weeks, but when it does come out, it's me. So I think that also goes back to being authentic. If you DM the Instagram account, I am the one that's reading it.
I'm looking at it. I think there's something to be said for people feeling that you are accessible.
I have college students from around the world sending me their stuff before they give it to their professors and their teachers and say, what do you think of this elevation? What do you think of this color board? What should I do differently? And I don't mind being that Jiminy Cricket, that little special force behind them that's invisible, giving them that feedback to help them get the good grade. I don't want them to cheat, obviously, but I think we need that as an industry to have elders that we can lean on for support.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: Well, one of those ways is through your masterclass, and you were one of the first designers to have a masterclass. Can you talk to us about what it was like creating masterclass? How did you condense it into. I think it's seven segments. It's like two and a half hours. And how have you found the response to be after launching one of the most watched masterclasses?
[00:48:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that was a wonderful experience. Kelly Werstler, my colleague, was the first to launch, and her approach was to basically take you as the viewer, around to different projects that she had designed into her studio. We were going to follow the same curriculum or the same format with mine. And then Covid hit, and so they had to completely rearrange my filming sequence so that I could do mine on a soundstage in Brooklyn. So we designed a home, a figurative house, if you will, on a set, and then with, you know, three or four dozen camera people all wearing masks, and, you know, I'm sitting up there like a little plastic bubble by myself with a megaphone, giving me, you know, prompts.
That's how we filmed the masterclass during the pandemic. But they did a beautiful job, and they're a spectacular team. They're so down to earth. They have a really wonderful vision for their brand as far as what I believe in, which is design, democracy, or democracy in terms of. Of whether it be, you know, culinary or gardening, whatever the subject matter might be. And it was a lot of fun. And we Put a lot of effort into it. It's been ridiculously successful. I think Delta Airlines picked it up and ran it for over a year on their in flight program, and it garnered about. I think at one point they were saying for about seven or eight months straight, they were registering about 10 million viewers per month that were watching that class. To the point where, you know, I travel a lot for work, and there was a few sits with situations where I was on the flight and people were watching the masterclass, and they look over at me across the aisle like, is that you? And I'm like, that's not me. It is definitely not me. If you have a design question, just watch the show. You know, I'm on my flight working right now.
So that definitely brought our brand to an international audience. It just kind of, you know, expanded our reach, and now we're working with clients from around the world, so it definitely has been a blessing. We're very grateful for. For Masterclass.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: Okay, can we talk about books?
Your first book, Design Remix, was a bestseller, and your second, Design Reimagined, comes out this fall.
Talk to us about the difference between the two books.
What did you find inside that you wanted to tell more of?
[00:50:24] Speaker A: With Design Remix, it was more about embracing, obviously, a beautiful color, texture, pattern, and teaching people how to capture those different elements for their own apartments or homes. And so Design Reimagined kind of picks up where that first book left off and brings some of those tenets into like a teaching curriculum, masterclass type format in the second book. So we still have those teaching modules that people love. I think that readers really want to have a payoff if they're going to spend $50 for a book. They just don't want to be told. Look at how the wealthy are living. They want to be able to take away from that some nugget, some sort of vestige of information that they can use to make their own lives better. So. So Design Reimagine does have that. I think it's very different from Remix in the sense that Reimagine is a much bigger book. It's physically a bigger trim. It is about 40 pages longer than the first book, so it's actually got more content.
It's a much more.
It's a fancier book. Very fancy as far as the way how it's constructed. We put a lot of effort into the design of the book. It has these gorgeous bronze or copper gilded page edges.
You take off the paper jacket and it's wrapped in. In this beautiful peacock feather. Leather case. So it's just fancy. It's a fancier, prettier book, I think, in many regards. And it's also driven by project Design. Remix was focused on subject like how to design in bold color, how to design with pattern, how to design with texture with reimagine. It's driven by project A, project B, project C. This house is here, this apartment is here, and then inside of each chapter are the takeaways, how to do it with a bold color, how to do it with texture. So I like it because I think it's a different format that I think will appeal to people in a different way.
The other last thing I'll say about it that makes it different from Remix is that we had multiple photographers shooting projects over 15 years, or at that time, 12 years for the first book. This book reimagined, just covers three years of production of projects. So we had one photographer basically capture like 95 plus of all the content. So the, the symmetry and the, and the connective tissue between each chapter is very consistent. The lighting, the coloring, the, the vibrancy of the imagery from start to finish is a much more cohesive point of view because Andrew Frost captured every home. So I think people will really love that cohesiveness.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: Amazing. I have a lot of follow up questions. I'm sorry. Okay.
[00:52:54] Speaker A: Of course, yeah.
[00:52:55] Speaker B: First one, you mentioned that the second book is fancier. Do you feel like that is a testament to the evolution of your firm as well? Are you just fancier now?
[00:53:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.
My clients in Michigan, who are beloved to me, are a different client than my clients in the northeast, in the south and abroad.
And neither client base is better or worse. They're just. Just different. You know, I'm from Michigan, so I know we don't like showing off. You know, a lot of times we don't like a lot of color. We like those beiges and grays and taupes and neutrals, because that's what Michigan is. But New York, you know, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Europe, these people, they want color and pattern, they want that texture, they want to make a story. So I think just from that angle, just the change in clientele as far as logistics, Anastasia is what really marks the difference between the two books.
[00:53:53] Speaker B: Next question.
I don't think it's a secret that, like we're being flooded with design books right now. And I mean, I love it. I consume every single one. But what do you feel like, what do you feel you intentionally chose to do differently than all the others out there?
[00:54:12] Speaker A: Oh, great question.
I would say, what's different about design reimagined compared to other books out there? It's filled with a lot of heart.
A lot of heart, some self deprecating humor. I really shared my personal struggle in my story.
I weaved that throughout the book. Like I mentioned the dedication, talking about imposter syndrome and overcoming challenges and broken crayons, still being able to color and that delays don't mean denial. That was a theme throughout the entire book. Because I felt that design reimagined has multiple meanings in this book. Yes, we're reimagining the interiors of these homes, but I also had that going against the backdrop of how I had to reimagine my life with my career. Losing my job during the Great Recession, starting over with a new firm, and then relocating everything to New York at the height of the pandemic. Again reimagining my life all over again and knocking on new figurative doors and a whole new marketplace in the northeast. So I wanted the readers to understand that it's okay to make a change mid career. It's okay if your first client doesn't turn out the way you want it. It's okay if you lose that project, if you don't get the bid. It's okay if that staff member steps off and goes a different direction. You know, it's not reflection on you, it's just the way of the world. And I don't think that design books speak to that. I think they talk about, oh, well, we were over in the south of France and we came across this vacant field and found this Louis XVI style chair buried deep in the earth. And we unearthed it and dusted it off and then set it in our living room in our fifth house in Australia.
Okay, great. And does that really appeal to the common everyday reader? You know, give me something that has some meat, that has some gravity. Tell me that you also are human, that you are going through something that I can relate to. And I feel that a lot of people don't do that. It's become very vogue now to be very untouchable, very plastic, very fake. I will not have that in my books. I will not have that. And I think that makes design reimagined and remix different from what's out there.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: So don't let those gilded edge pages fool you. You need to read the word.
[00:56:38] Speaker A: It's fancy on the outside, but it's raw on the inside.
[00:56:40] Speaker B: You know, one, one last question. It's pretty technical about when it comes to books. We've just heard from other guests that, you know, you, you've got a book deal, so your projects for the next three years are on embargo and you're not allowed to share those images.
How do you navigate that when you are, you know, trying to book clients and you're like, you know, I've got these projects I can show you that I designed at this point six years ago, that we photographed three years ago. But you can't see any of our newest, latest, greatest stuff. Do you, does your attorney work with them to say, you know, we're allowed to send a private portfolio to potential clients so they can see the latest, greatest stuff? Do you, you know, are you allowed to have three vignettes you're allowed to share? How do you handle that? Because especially as a designer is, is newer, or maybe they're just evolving in their aesthetic, they want to be able to show their latest projects.
[00:57:34] Speaker A: I have no problem showing our latest projects to our clients, even if they're recent jobs. I'm not going to post them on social media or on our website, but I have no problem.
And again, that's the beauty of zoom. Or even if they come to our atelier in New York, we'll put up on the screen, we'll show them our latest project.
And that underscores the value of photographing your work and getting a really good photographer, a consistent photographer, to show your best work at the best times and the best lighting.
I think it's important to show your clients what you're working on because it keeps you active and it keeps you relevant.
I think what a lot of designers like myself run into as authors is you have to keep your projects embargoed as far as social media, and that's difficult, but that's where you're maybe sharing projects that you've done that you photograph that are not going to go in the book.
You pick and choose what's going to be a showpiece for the next publication. And this heap of imagery over here is actually great for social media content.
And just recognize that time does fly by quickly.
I've been dying to show off these 10 new projects in this new book, but we've been working on it for three years and now it's finally here. It just, you have to just be to stick with it.
[00:58:49] Speaker B: What do the next five to 10 years look like for you? And I know that you pivot quickly and so I'm curious if a 10 year plan is even something that really exists.
More like a 10 month, 10 week plan. But what does that look like for you.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: I want to be designing resorts, hotels around the world.
I love to travel Thailand and all parts of France and London, Paris are my favorite places to be. So I want to see us embarking on international construction around the world and bringing our aesthetics to those really fantastic hotels and resorts for people to enjoy on a massive scale. And I feel that way, Anastasia, because I feel that there are a lot of people out there who may be maybe can't afford a high end designer to do their home, but they can afford to escape to a beautiful getaway and they may love my work. And so if I can be able to create a getaway for them, even if I can't work with them day to day on the actual home, maybe they can enjoy our design aesthetic in a different format. Maybe on vacation, I would love to do that.
Certainly more product development and probably more television.
We love to get out there and help people. I love to educate and to teach, so I don't see that part of my business going away. I still see it being more public facing, more encouraging and building up people, whether they're students or creatives or clients.
I definitely see more interactive relationships with people in the media spectrum for sure.
[01:00:32] Speaker B: So my last question I ask everyone, I feel like yours is gonna need a 30 minute segment. You've teased us about some of things you have coming out. New product lines launching in January 2026, the book being about to be released, you're already filming season two.
Can you share any exciting, preferably secret, projects, collaborations or launches coming up that we can really look forward to?
[01:00:54] Speaker A: Ooh, yes. I will say keep an eye on television. Keep an eye on your streaming networks and your cable television network platforms. We have some things coming that actually will be seen the light day this year as a matter of fact. So some things I've been filming and have filmed in that media space will be debuting here around the time of the book launches. So there'll be some stuff along those lines. Can't say just yet what it is because it's under embargo.
But keep an eye on our Instagram and our platforms. We'll be announcing that. You mentioned the licensing collections and the expansion there. So there's some new announcements coming, you know, pretty soon along those lines. And also we have some show house activity coming into orbit pretty soon too. So yeah, exciting.
[01:01:44] Speaker B: I don't know how you do it all, but it is such a pleasure to watch.
[01:01:49] Speaker A: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.
People always say it's so good to see you and I always say, well, it's better to be seen than viewed. Like in a casket, you know. So just thanks for watching.
[01:02:01] Speaker B: Cory is was a huge pleasure. This was such a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time.
[01:02:05] Speaker A: Thanks for having me.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: For more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or a patreon.com/forward/the interior Collective. Thank you so so much for tuning in to this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
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