[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey. And today I'm sitting down with Nicole Fisher, founder of Nicole Fisher Interiors, a residential design studio now based in New York City. Before Nicole was designing homes, she was dressing Lady Gaga. She started her career in fashion working as a stylist under Brandon Maxwell and Nicola Formachetti. That level of intentionality around detail, character and originality didn't leave her when she transitioned into interior design. It became the entire foundation of how she works. And that foundation has never been more relevant than right now because we are living through a moment in this industry where AI tools, algorithms, and the sheer volume of visual content being produced are creating a kind of aesthetic gravity, a pull towards a lot of the same. And the designers who are going to thrive in that environment are the ones who built something so specific and so genuine, genuinely theirs, that no algorithm could have produced it. Nicole is one of those designers. She has been named to luxe inaugural nextlist, featured in Arc Digest. And after 10 plus years of building her firm in Hudson, New York, she's moving her studio back to the city where her career began. In this episode, we're talking about all of it, the fashion years, what the world taught her about building a visual identity, how she thinks about originality as a business strategy, and what designers need to understand about protecting their creative point of view. In an era of algorithmic science sameness, this is a conversation about creativity as a competitive advantage.
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Get started today. Free for 14 days, no credit card required. And Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their first month at getmaterial.com that's M A T E R I O getmaterio.com hello, Nicole, and welcome to the Interior Collective. I am so excited to have you on the show. This one and this topic is so fascinating to me. I know it's going to be a killer episode. So thank you for being here.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Thank you for having me so excited.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: This is like, I'm actually kind of fangirling a little bit just because your background is so interesting and I just personally find so much inspiration in fashion. To be able to like let those two worlds collide is like super exciting. So let's start with some intro and background specifically about your studio. And then we'll go back to the beginning. Give us a snapshot of Nicole Fisher interiors today. What is, where is the studio? How do you have it structured and kind of what's your day to day? Within that.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So the studio right now I've grown to my team of 12.
We are back in New York City. We just opened our new office in Chelsea. And the team is kind of split between execution and design. So we have design team that are junior designers, design director, technical design, architectural design.
And then we have the business side a bit that's more finance and hr and we have social media, content creation. So we have press. We are, you know, as the needs of the business come up, I always tend to hire to pay for my time, to buy back my time versus like what I think is the need of the business. Right. So I just always go toward what am I spending the most time on and then I hire for that. So that's how we've gotten this. A bit more of a interesting group of mix of people versus just thinking, all right, let's go all in on design.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Wait, that's so fascinating to think what is taking up the most of my time now? Great. That's what I need to delegate and hire for, huh? That is such a brilliant reverse engineering. Okay, let's, let's get to more wisdom then. How are you currently structuring your fees? Is it going to be flat rate, hourly, a hybrid? And how has that evolved over the last 10 plus years that you've been building the brand?
[00:04:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so that has, I mean, I've tried it all. I really have tried it all.
Right now.
I, I tend to, I feel like I always get burned no matter what. And the only thing that allows me to not get burned is an hourly and markup. And that's really allowed me to grow, allowed me to afford a team and also like really hone in on this is what we're spending our time on with your project. This is what you're being charged, you know, scope, creep and the project just going out of the time frame because of things out of my control, you know, contractor permit, whatever.
The hours really just protect us and the team. And I've, you know, it adds up. But I have found it's the only thing that's fair.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: You know, I was having a conversation, I think it was just yesterday I was talking offline with someone about this, the concept of flat rate versus hourly and how your, your region and like your micro region can actually really sway that. So you find that being in New York City hourly is something that your clients are sort of used to and open to and prepare to do so. Because I've been hearing a lot in like the LA market and a lot of, not that LA is a second market, but some of like the smaller markets around the country that people are, a lot are really inching towards being more comfortable with the flat rate. And it's been easier to get a yes from someone if you can tell them how much it's going to cost. So I'd love just your thoughts on yes in New York. I've seen it done X, Y and Z ways, but so far our clients are comfortable with that because people are kind of getting a little resistance these days.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: I mean we still get resistance 100% but our clients are normally their finance, their lawyers, their corporate. They're used to an hourly because that's how they build their clients, you know, so they're, they are really used to it. I think it's very clear in our literature and I know we'll, we'll probably touch on some element of AI during this conversation. But the more efficient we can get, the more it feels like these hours are actually really productive and we're not just, you know, doing things to be able to bill, but we're, we know exactly what it's going to be, what it's going to cost. And I think the more framework you can put around it and be able to upfront tell a client this is really what it takes, a team of X size to be able to execute on X square footage. Then you know, there's, there's less of a shock really.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Have you considered.
So like for instance, you have finance attorneys clients and you know, their early rate can be like 750. It can be like way higher than what, I don't know what your hourly rate is, but I imagine you're not charging 7:50. So one of the things that I get caught up on a little bit is 10 plus years into the business, what takes what your team is capable of doing in one hour is way more than it was even six years ago, two years ago in some cases. But in every market I do feel like people cap out on what they can. Like there is a Max to what you can charge hourly and what the, the market will allow. How do you comp and how do you adjust for that? Knowing that, hey, my team is really efficient and really great, so I am charging a premium or we're, you know, we're mid range. We're what you can expect us to spend on a designer in New York City.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think New York is just an expensive market. So our hours, although high, are still not at like the top, top of like the hourly range.
But we come in thinking, okay, this is the square footage. This how many people I'm going to need to put on this project.
I like to keep my people about 80% billable hours. So then I can do like just math behind, you know, this many people times 80% of their hours. Like this is how much it's going to likely be. I know from a project management standpoint after design is done, hey, this is what it takes to kind of oversee and make sure that the project is moving along.
The bulk of our time goes into this design phase up front. Right. Because it just takes the most amount of time, most amount of creativity.
And I've had clients come on and they're like, hey, we want this. You know, normal design time is four months. Can you do it in two? And I'll say I have to now I have to throw double the amount of people on that job. So. Yes, but you're going to have an upfront cost much higher than, you know what I would normally say. And it's just a conversation that we have to have and make sure that they're cool with it.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's perfectly clear. Thank you.
And then one final follow up question about pricing before I move on to more interesting stuff is with a team of 12 doing all different types of jobs, do you guys have like one flat hourly rate as a studio and that's what you're billing or is everybody priced at different or, or is there very variety?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all based on seniority. So you know what your, what your role is, determines your hourly rate. Yeah, mine is obviously the highest, but I'm also the least amount involved in the job. So we set up this 1080, 10 component to what I do. I do that initial 10%, the team does that middle 80% and then I come in and do the last 10%. So that system that we have really allows me to say, like, I know how much time I'm going to really need to delegate to this job.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: That's brilliant. 10, 80, 10. I'm going to remember that. Thank you.
Okay, Nicole, so you just mentioned, like, you guys are back in the city. Talk to us about where you were at before and what really has driven the decision to make the move back.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so we were in the Hudson Valley for the last six years. We moved up with COVID like the rest of the world. And we never left. I mean, I opened an office up there. I enrolled my son in school. My husband was full time remote. I mean, we fully became, like, upstate people.
And I, like, really developed the team up there over the last, you know, really year or so.
We just hit a ceiling. The ceiling in terms of, like, the type of project we're getting, the type of talent coming through the door. The. The hustle culture didn't, like, exist up there, the way that exists here.
And I knew that I had to make a decision. Are you cool with where you are, or do you want to keep going? And I'm. I want to keep going. So it was a, you know, decision I had to make of complacency or growth.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: It's interesting that all the reasons why you and everyone else moved up there during COVID is exactly the reasons why it wasn't going to be sustainable now that everything's returned back. So that is so interesting that you had to make that shift. Okay, let's go to the fashion years. I'm very excited about this.
Talk to me about how you started your career in fashion, where you were working as a stylist. And to those who are not in the fashion world, which is probably everyone listening, what does stylist even mean in that capacity?
[00:11:36] Speaker B: So stylist has, like, a very similar meaning to the way that it is in interiors. We're just talking about clothes versus, like, accessories and furniture.
So I applied as an intern for a random styling internship while I was doing a postgraduate program at Parsons. And I walk up to this loft in soho, take an elevator up, and just the doors open, and it's just all these tables covered with hardware and, like, gold chains and these armadillo platform shoes and, like, metal T shirts. And I'm like, where on earth am I? And I, like, look over, and I see this, like, gold giant gun with, like, a lipstick coming out of it. And I realized it's like the lipstick gun from the Judas music video. And I'm like, where am I?
Because I was, like, a fan before. So, like, I just was like, what is happening right now?
They didn't tell me, like, on the interview that it was, but I started putting the pieces together just Cool as a cucumber. Anything they asked me, I was like, yep, I am an expert sewer. I am an expert at that. I will figure it out. I don't care what it is, but I'm going to figure it out.
And they were like, all right, sure, we'll give you a shot. And at that time, Brandon Maxwell was on that team before he became, you know, the amazing designer he is now under Nicole of Formicetti. There were two other people and then and me. And that was like, born this way era.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Amazing. So you were hand sewing costumes for Lady Gaga.
And how. How long were you doing that? How long did that era last for you, Nicole?
[00:13:25] Speaker B: I was two years of my life. It felt like 30, but it was two years.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: Okay, and then fast forward those two years.
How did that way of thinking and level of intensity and creativity and understanding of environments that you were creating in, like, a different capacity shape the way that you eventually approach interior design?
[00:13:52] Speaker B: I think there's just this element of individuality that comes from that world. With Gaga, specifically, because she is so uniquely who she is.
And what I do now is just being able to celebrate that individuality. There's not one project that looks like the next project, because not one person is like the next project. You don't.
Clients don't come to me and say, I want this look or I want this. You know, we're going to take what you. What you think you like, and then we're going to shake it up and then we're going to flip it on its head. But it's going to be how you live, how you entertain, how you host Thanksgiving. Where do you like to keep your underwear? Where do you like to brush your teeth in the morning? I mean, we think about all of these incredibly specific and personal details that that house is so specific to who the client is and how they live.
And I think that element of the fashion background just allowed that. And especially with, you know, Gaga is allowed the. The element of individuality to really shine through no matter what we're doing.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: That's so fascinating. I feel like so many studios have built their brand on their point of view and their interpretation of things. And to think of it as, like, styling a character, styling a specific Persona, and thinking of that as someone's home is such a unique and very clever market position.
Talk to us about the transition. So two years of this taking over your entire life.
What happened next? How did you get into interiors?
[00:15:36] Speaker B: So I. My first foray into interiors was working with One Kings Lane. So that was An E commerce company.
They opened up a studio concept where they were allowing people to come in, use their product, and they had designers using their product to create like rooms for people.
I started working in the studio and then moved on to their like celebrity makeovers. So that was with one off projects that we were working with celebrities. We worked with Bobby Brown, worked with Lucy Liu on creating these really beautiful spaces for them using one Kingsland product.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: And that was those spaces were in this studio or you would go to their, their home, whatever that was, and you would be designing in their houses.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: So we started in the studio and then it kind of morphed into we started moving out. Yeah.
[00:16:31] Speaker A: Okay. And what felt immediately familiar between the two industries and what has like genuinely surprised you about how different the two world are?
[00:16:44] Speaker B: I think the main similarity is really that we are able to express who we are as people, whether it's through our clothes or through our home. I think this element of sameness as you brought up before is so.
It's just easy.
It's an easy crutch for a lot of people because they are not comfortable expressing who they are. And I think this world of social media has allowed people to be a little bit more, you know, expressive and out there. But. And we're seeing more and more that that's really what people want. They don't. They're tired of this idea of sameness.
And interiors and fashion are just so similar in that way because they can just express that individual to a T. You walk into the space and you know exactly who this person is. You, you see a person on the subway and you know exactly what kind of person they are, you know, and there's, there's something so amazing about that because it's just, it's just you. There's one, it's a one of one, you know, and like, how special of that.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: What has been surprisingly different between those two instances of individuality? How does someone approach individuality, you know, on what they present in what they're wearing versus how they present the way they live?
[00:18:11] Speaker B: The difference is really that you have to.
You're making bigger decisions, you're making bigger financial decisions, you're making more long term decisions.
So I think the decision paralysis is probably set in harder with homes because you're not able to change and switch it up as much as you would with like an outfit.
I think that's probably the biggest differentiator and why people tend to fall into this sameness category because it becomes a, a much bigger decision in their mind. To commit and to make that what. What feels final. We have a client right now who is like, I don't want to make this X decision because this isn't my forever home. I'm like, well, how long are you planning on being here? 10 years? I'm like, that's like two forevers to me. Like, what are you talking about?
Like, we have this misunderstanding of like, what it means to like, put down roots and feel happy in our spaces and there that it has to be so concrete and solid and you can't change your mind. And that's just like, it's just not true.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay, so although you went to design school, it wasn't technically formal interior design training and you built your whole firm since that. What, what do you think your unconventional path gave you that? You think a traditional education in, you know, formal interior design might have actually left out?
[00:19:52] Speaker B: I think it's really allowed me to take risks. I think there is an element of just, let's see what happens. You know, let's, let's just try it. Let's, let's take a gamble. You know, there's such beauty in not knowing what is to come, in my opinion. I love change and I, I welcome change. I welcome new ideas and risk in that way.
And I think when you're formally trained, you're kind of, you're a little bit more robotic in how you think things should go, how you think a design firm should be managed, what that team should look like.
So I look at it from, I look at it as a business, I look at, from a business perspective first and foremost. So that's why I can confidently bring in these ideas of buying back my time or this 1080, 10 thing, because I'm not thinking about it the way that a traditional designer is looking at it. I'm thinking about it as a businesswoman.
I think in my perspective, as we continue to grow and as I continue to think of new verticals and scaling this, I'm thinking about it differently and I think it gives me a real leg up and advantage as we make a mark that's completely different from what everyone else is doing.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Well, I can tell you after. How far are we in this? 15 minutes into this, I'm like, this is one of my favorite interviews I've ever done. So I'm like, yes, tell us everything your brain's got, girl, because we are buckled in. We are locked in.
Okay, so from a branding standpoint, and this is where I'll geek out, because this is what our studio does Websites, branding. I love your website and I love the brand that you built. And I can immediately see your fashion background having a huge impact in that the way that you've photographed, styled your work and how it translates onto the website is, is not how everybody else is doing it. It feels very fashion forward. How intentional are you in keeping things feeling really high energy, editorial in like a fashion sense amongst the world of, I don't know, all the 80, 100 sameness of sorts that's out there.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: I think it's, it's super important to me. I want to stand out from the crowd. That's like what we're doing here. I think that's what our interiors say. I think that's what even what my office says, like the word. I'm not trying to fit in. I'm trying to just be who I am.
And I lead my day with a very editorial. That's just who I am as a person. So when we're designing the website, when we're thinking about brand, I am thinking about all of these things because I want to come across as like the vision. I'm selling not only a vision of a design, I'm selling a vision of this partnership between you and I am selling this vision of communication and relationship. And you know, I don't just do design, I speak on panels, I do all these, you know, there's so many things. So there's, there's not one singular thing I'm trying to say with my website, right? So when I think about what we want to put out into the universe, I want it to be powerful, I want it to be strong. I want it to have a clear point of view. I want it to be fashion forward because that's what I love and I want it to feel different. I don't want this sameness. I want them, anyone coming to the website or looking at us for the first time to be like, who is this maybe psychopath? I don't know who is this crazy person that I've just come across? But like, I kind of want to be her friend, you know, I want to like get in there. I want to like know what her looney tune brain is thinking about. Because that is what makes us different. And that's why we can like spark this relationship. Because these relationships are not for a couple weeks. These are, this is a year, two, three plus, you know, your relationship. So, you know, you have to garner that trust, that sense of understanding, that sense of, oh, I kind of know what I'm getting into when I'M getting into a project with her and I think that that relationship that they build with us before even like picking up the phone is something really special. And we were able to do with putting a real point of view behind, like, every asset that we have.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: One of the questions are our, you know, website clients have a lot for us, is like, I don't want our. My branding to conflict with the photos in X, Y and Z specific project.
And you have a bold, colorful use of branding on your website. What is your perspective on that and how do you manage to make it make sense that, like, it doesn't have to be representative of every single project, it doesn't have to match every single single project. And that's okay?
[00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's really important that everything doesn't look, you know, the same. That you, you're. There's a, a sense of, of wonder when you're, when you're going through, you're, you're discovering you're finding something new. I think there's, there's this world we're living in where people, I think, get too caught into everything. Fitting into, like a certain going outside of the box is, like, scary, and I get it.
But how are you going to evolve to like, the next step in whatever business that you're in? How are you going to get to the client that's that next tier up in terms of wealth? You know, they're all looking at different things, in my opinion. So when you're able to tailor your stuff to a clear point of view, but be able to highlight and be attractive in like, multiple different type of ways and facets, I think that's like, that's like the money maker in a way. Because if you've got one point of, you know, view really, that you're looking at your. And you're trying to attract one type of person, it's going to be your forever client. You know, there's no growth, there's no, there's no movement in that. So I think that's just someone who doesn't understand branding, in my opinion. And, like, what it takes to stand out from the crowd because it's a cluttered world out there and you gotta figure out how to position yourself in a different light to, you know, stand out not only for now, but for the future.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: You've mentioned at the top of the show, you know, coming back to New York City, thinking about, okay, how do we keep moving forward? We're. I'm not okay being complacent with where we're at. And with that, you mentioned, like, what are new verticals? How do we grow? How do we scale this? I think it's interesting your. Your branding brain is so interesting already that, you know, your studio is Nicole Fisher and how you're thinking about, okay, scaling, and what does that mean to you, keeping it under your brand name? And have you thought about what that looks like long term and how important it is to you that your name stays on it? Or is that something that you think will change to be more. I don't mean generic, but, like, more inclusive of a large team? Because I think that that's something that a lot of designers get to at a point and they're like, I don't know if I should be switching the name. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's a very interesting topic of conversation because I've talked to my financial advisor a lot about this because she's like, you can't be sell. It's much harder to be sellable with a name attached to it.
And then I talk to other people in business and they're like, your name is the thing. Your name is the asset. Right. So I think it's just.
I don't. I don't think there's a right and wrong answer to it.
There is certainly personal brand that needs to exist if you're going to put your name on the door. I think that is, like, something that people forget. You put your name up and then nobody knows who you are. Right. So it's one thing to do all these, like, beautiful projects, but how do they trust you? Who the hell is Nicole Fisher? Like, why should I give a shit, you know? So the personal brand component at this point has become so important to what we're doing and what we're putting out consistently. And what I think people need to think about when they're thinking, do I want to be the face behind the name or not? And really, are you okay putting your face on things? Are you okay with the speaking? Are you okay with the podcast? Are you okay with, you know, because all of that filters under this, like, name. And if you don't want. If you're not comfortable doing that, if you're not confident in that space, then I would rethink having, you know, your name there, because you almost need to, like, sell your soul in that way to just get.
You got to put everything about you in there. There's no.
There's no hiding anymore. Everything is out there. There's no secrets. I'm an open book at this point,
[00:29:30] Speaker A: that's an excellent transition as we start to talk about the algorithm and how AI plays a role in that and inspiration. But I wanted one more question specifically in this market, as you were talking about wanting to be interesting and attractive to a variety of different clients, obviously New York is a very competitive landscape. How. How do you feel about maintaining approachability or interest to a variety of great, excellent, interesting, cool clients and projects in a space that is really competitive versus really leaning into one specific style so that those clients are the ones finding you when they have 10 other designers on the street to choose from?
[00:30:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's funny you said that, because it's something we've been talking about a lot lately. Our, our marketing shift has been significant since moving from the Hudson Valley because, you know, putting some ad dollars behind us upstate. It was like, immediate return. There was, you know, the, the phone just started ringing right away, and all of a sudden we were like, really working in the Hudson Valley a lot.
New York, it's too saturated. There's like, that went to like, there was no return on any of that stuff. So now we're like, refocusing on what that marketing spend looks like. And I'm not putting money into ads because I can't target the type of people that I want to target.
And to your question, I think there's still an element of targeting specific people that we're trying to do.
People with like, specific type of taste, specific type of, you know, interests, but still making it appealing for the masses. Right. So, like, from a personal brand perspective, what we're putting out is more about overarching, you know, New York design, whatnot, what it takes to run the studio, what we're specific point of view, any of these things that kind of make people lean in a bit. And then from the interior side and like the website, I think that really allows people to say, like, oh, there's like a distinct type of style that we're looking in here.
Do I fall in this or not?
So I still try to appeal for, like, social, at least to the masses.
But any, like, direct on, you know, what we're doing, if, if we're doing any ads, if we're doing anything specific, is still really geared toward our ideal client.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: If you've been running your firm for a few years now, you've probably got a system in place, and I do use that term loosely. It's going to be a mix of apps, some spreadsheets, maybe a project management tool that was close, but never quite right. And you are still the one holding it all together.
But here's the thing. Most tools were not built for the way interior designers actually deliver projects. Materio was concept to handoff approvals to procurement to billing with QuickBooks sync built right in one connected workflow Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their first month at getmaterial.com free for 14 days. No credit card required. That's M A T E r I o getmaterio.com okay, so fascinating. Let's, let's start talking about social and AI and how the algorithm is flattening diversity. And I feel like we're at a moment where the volume of AI generated imagery is, is getting very high and mass produced visual content is, is, yeah. Flattening aesthetic diversity across the industry.
What are you seeing, especially in New York? And, and does it concern you?
[00:33:38] Speaker B: I don't, it doesn't concern me. I don't think AI is able to be a creative being. There's something very human led that we do that is not replicable and not replicable by another human being, let alone by a computer. And I think that what is very scary to people is this element of like the unknown and what it's able to do. But I think if we start to think about this in a, how can I leverage this more on a business perspective than on like a design perspective?
The floodgates, like totally open and that's what we use it for.
But in terms of like creativity and being able to do what we really do, there's no, not a chance.
I'm not concerned about that. And I think continuing to push the boundary and continuing to make every project different and continuing to make every project so specific to the client that we're working with.
How, how on earth can that be repeatable? And that's like our goal, whether it's another designer or whether it's, you know, AI. So I am, I think with the element of sameness, it is repeatable, you know, but as long as you can continue to stand out from the crowd, there are things that AI just won't be able to touch from a personal and really human driven experience.
[00:35:13] Speaker A: Can we talk a little bit about the AI tools for the business side of things that your studio is really running with? What AI tools have you found genuinely useful for your design practice and what, how, how are you using them? What are like the actual day to day things? Everybody take out your pens and pencils. Like what are the things that you're actually executing on?
[00:35:38] Speaker B: We use AI very specifically, so we primarily Use Claude for any AI work that we're doing.
It is an incredible brainstorming tool. So just going back and forth, but knowing how to prompt, knowing how to use this efficiently, that's like number one key.
We brought in an AI company to teach the team how to efficiently use it. So we took real bottleneck problems and said the 1, 2, 3 for each person.
Can we, can we automate any part of this? Can we use AI? Can we leverage AI to do any part of this? And all of a sudden it's like, oh, wow, it's not really this scary thing, it is just a helpful thing. So from that perspective, you know, we use a cloud cowork to be able to execute on certain tasks. So we want to be able to give the clients a recap of the week, go through all of my emails, go through all of the correspondence with xyz, go through our Asana project management tasks, give me a bulleted list of like what was done this week and what's happening next week. All of a sudden that just took out like three hours of work, you know, to go through that.
We use it for standard operating procedures. So I really like to give people a clear delineation of this is your role, this is what is expected of you. This is how you come in on the first day and know how to like jump in and feel like you're not going to drown. You have some, some level of, you know, assistance there.
So we use this company called Scribe and Scribe dictates all of these operating procedures and that has allowed all of these folders. Each role has its own folder they can click in there. And there's welcome docs, there's our brand book, everything down to texts and colors and fonts and fashion inspiration for the office and where I get my inspiration and background and press, things that you should know and projects that you should be seeing. All these things for them to feel like, wow, I am fully immersed in this without someone having to hold my hand.
Then they can move into, okay, this is my role, this is what's expected of me.
These are things that I need to be doing on a day to day. So everyone has a playbook. Everyone's got their operating procedures, everyone really knows what's expected of them. You know, it's not my, it's not my speed to micromanage people. I don't like doing it. It's like it's just not how I work best.
And I tell people when they come in for an interview, like, this is, it's fast Paced. This is hard work. I expect a lot from you, but I give you all the tools to be excellent. So it's up to you to execute on that. You know, it's up to you to show me that you're a rock star. Because we want, like, we want a players here, only a players that can, like, pick up, know what's expected of them and, like, shoot for the stars.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: I think that that's probably the biggest leadership mistake that designers make is that they bring someone on and there's not clear expectations set for that role. Or when you have a small team and other people don't know how to fill in the blank if someone has to step out, if someone's not available for something. The fact that you have those SOP set up through scribe is so, so, so valuable. I know people listening are like, well, yeah, that sounds freaking fantastic. I don't have time to do that. How long, how big of an investment was it to like, actually set aside the time to figure all that out or. I don't even know what that person's role is yet because I'm still figuring it out. Can you walk us through a little bit and set expectations of, like, how long did it really take you to figure that out? Was that someone else's job on the team to execute those scribes, to get all of that set up? Was there a consultancy firm that came in and did it? How did you get to the point of being able to have those SOPs?
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Yep. So that's a big thing I used AI for. And that's the big thing I used, like, brainstorming with Claude for. This is where I'm hitting a ceiling. This is where I think this person should do. This is their job description. Let's put all of this information in here and then these are the things I'm trying to solve for. Let's come up with a.
Let's come up with a playbook on their job, on how to make them the most efficient. All of a sudden it's like, you shouldn't be doing this. Person shouldn't be doing that. They should be leaning into this. This should be falling under X be. All of a sudden, I'm thinking about these roles a lot differently. When I have someone to, like, bounce these ideas off of. Right.
So that's made a huge difference. I do it for everyone that reports to me and then it's up to the manager's job to do the. That next step.
They.
They're supposed to be updating them three every three months. Or so because, you know, the firm changes, the rules change everything. You know, if it's not constantly changing, then you're not constantly growing. So it's like everything is breaking constantly and you just have to roll with the, the change that's involving.
And we are consistently taking this, you know, initial scribe and then maybe we're putting it back into AI. We're saying, okay, over the last three months these things have happened, like, how do we want to adjust this?
And. But it's, it's a never ending process. I think same thing with like we were going back to all the way in the beginning, people feeling so permanent. Like these things are not so permanent that it's so hard to just get started. And I completely understand that.
But just take one at a time. Just take one role. Take the most important role. Even you. I do it for myself. I'm like, okay, I want to be, I want this 1080, 10 component with my team. Like, what does that look like from my day to day, right?
And then I take my, my number two, my next person down. So for me, my most important hire when I started growing in this way was my executive assistant. That was like. Because 80% of my day was admin. It was admin work with like bills and client correspondence and emails and phone calls and like all this thing, all these things that you think you need to handle yourself, that you think, okay, my name's on the door or they're paying me or the client, like interviewed with me.
It's not, it's really not the case. I think that's just something in our minds, especially as women, that we feel like we need to have our, like, pause on everything and be able to fully control.
And it's not until that moment where you can really allow someone else to take full control over that that you start to see the light.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: One of the things that my friend Renee at Tandem had taught me, and it wasn't on an episode, so I do have to share it. She called, she referred to AI as a calculator. You still have to know what numbers to put in to get the right answer out. And I think that that's such a great helpful way to think about AI and how you can be using Claude. Like you were saying, it's so helpful to have someone to bounce these ideas off of and I think, think to piggyback off of that. It's not just someone to bounce these ideas off of who should be doing what. It's also a level of anonymity where Claude is not responsible for any of those roles. There's no personal weight in saying, I'm going to take that off of this person's, you know, delegated list of tasks, or I'm adding this workload to it. So I think that, as you said, having training in how to use AI tools the most effectively is a step I think a lot of people are skipping. And whether it's having a company come in and train your whole team, or there's lots of things you can do online to learn how to use them, and there's definitely a level of just trial and error that you can start working with.
It is providing the most clear instructions to your AI tool, just like you need to provide those clear instructions to your team to be able to get the output you're really looking for.
Have you guys dabbled in any sort of AI when it comes to renderings or other visual representations of marketing presentations room renderings at all? And if not, is that something that you are consciously deciding that you don't want to have it happen, or is it something that you guys are maybe exploring in the future?
[00:44:23] Speaker B: So runnings are a really interesting component because what I have found that I've had less success when clients see things that are too realistic, that, like, they see things that are almost just too lifelike that we've had to use.
We've had to take our renderings because we're still. Renderings, to me, still represent, like, scale. So they still need to be done properly by a member of the team. That's. That's the human part, right? Then we take this human part and we say, okay, now I need to make it approachable to my client, because this looks like they're going to walk in and they're like, why is this fab? Why is this green look a little bit different than, like, that green? Like, it's just too realistic for them to, like, wrap their head around.
So what we started doing is putting that human LED rendering into Gemini and saying, make this a watercolor component.
So all of a sudden, it's just made this rendering more ethereal looking, and it has become this piece of art that the client is so much more amenable to when they see it.
And it's gone from, like, 0 to 100 in terms of acceptance of this is the rendering okay, great. I love it. It's so beautiful. Fabulous. This looks a little different, but that's okay.
And it's just to get. Because I think when we take things too seriously and too literally in the rendering, that's when installs are almost not as exciting for them either, you know, they're like, ooh, this looks like way different than I thought. But if we take it and we say, okay, here's the. This fairy tale idea of what this is going to be, and then it becomes reality.
It's like the brain works in different ways to be like, wow. Like, that was a transformation that I didn't expect, and it's really worked for us, and that has been, like, incredible.
The other thing we're doing on our proposals, so we give them all their, you know, their items and their costs and everything. If we're reupholstering something or we're making something custom, we'll take the fabric, we'll put that on the piece itself and that we use AI to put it on. So we're taking the fabric and the piece of furniture. We'll say, put this on there. You know, if we have to adjust scale and whatnot, colors, then they don't have to guess what it's going to look like in terms of, you know, that custom piece. So all of a sudden that, you know, $15,000 sofa is much easier to swallow because they don't have to. To guess what it's going to look like. They can kind of get it.
[00:47:19] Speaker A: Nicole, off the top of your head, do you recall what program you're using to drape your custom upholstery pieces in in AI Gemini?
[00:47:27] Speaker B: Gemini is the best one for images. Anything image wise, I think that one takes the cake on all of them for sure.
But those are the two ways we use it. Is it altering our design? No. Is it taking out the human part of what we're doing? No. Is it sourcing for us? No, it's not. It's taking what we have and enhancing it. And I think that's.
It's not a scary thing. That's like, that's a beautiful thing to do so quickly and so efficiently. That has a such a positive impact on that final presentation.
I. I'm all for it.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
It truly, as the way you explain it, it feels like a communication tool. It feels like you're enhancing your client's experience because it's romanticizing it. It's getting it done faster. It's getting them, you know, it's keeping their billable hours down.
I think that the way that you've delegated what is acceptable and what's not acceptable to be using it for is, is about efficiency, clear communication, and just getting an end result that the client's really happy with. So it's brilliant. Thank you so much. I am curious. I want to go back to that genius 108010 concept that you, that you built, which I think is. It's. It's brilliant how you coined it, but I think that it is a concept that a lot of studios are either currently operating under or ideally working towards. But to coin it 1080, 10, that just paints such a clear picture. How do you actively protect like your creative point of view inside your own studio when there's that 80% of it bit in the middle that you are very much less involved in?
[00:49:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
So the 10 is really key upfront. So that 10% for me is, you know, I'm.
I. Right now I'm like the salesperson in the office. Right. So the client signs on with me. I'm that. That, you know, filter.
I really get to know who they are as a person. I think a strength of mine is also being able to read who they are, understand them without them having to say explicitly how they are understanding their taste by, you know, showing them some imagery and saying, like, what works for you, what doesn't? Like, tell me the top things that are sparking joy. I can get a read on people easily in that way.
So my 10% is making a, like, presentation doc for my team that I do to them. And I say, this is the project, this is the client, this is the budget. This is what we have like per foot. This is the. This is the direction on each room. I will do inspiration imagery on everything. And I'll say why it will be, you know, the vibe we're trying to go, the mood we're trying to set. They say they want to host Thanksgiving for 17 people. They like to. They love to sleep in a queen bed. Don't ask me. I prefer king. We're gonna move on. They.
They're.
They have four kids, they have their in laws that need to stay here for three months out of the year. All the details of this project, this is like that open communication part that I have with the team all tied to imagery. So this is, you know, any questions, speak now.
Then at the end of that presentation, I pull, I usually pull a few, like, vintage. We're pretty heavy on, on vintage pieces.
I'll do, you know, first dibs and I'll just go to some like, hero over the top. Not something they have to like, ends up in the project, but also just like, wow moments. Like, this is. This is the vibe. You know what I mean? You get. Kind of got to get it from there and that's presented to the design director, to our juniors, like, anyone who's involved in that project.
At that point, we just have open communication. And I say, you know, do you, like, are we good, or we get it? Like, we feel confident with this direction.
I'll pull a few fabrics. I'll pull just so they really understand the vision for it.
I think with that level of detail up front, that 80% is very clear.
I'm also very fortunate to have a team that, like, gets it so, you know, they're able to execute and they know what's expected of them. Does that feel too safe? Let's, like, push that a little bit further.
In between, we'll have, like, one or two design reviews, so that's, like, where they are able to present to me. And I'll like, yes. No. Yes, yes. Like, push. Okay, keep going. I mean, the.
The more that we work with this team, the, like, less and less that is required. They just, like, on it. You know, they understand.
They. They speak Nicole, like, they speak this.
They get to know the client. They get to know me. They get to know the vision. They know what we're building towards. They know what we're trying to strive for.
And we want to be AD100. We want to be at the top of our game. We want to be someone that is highly coveted in this interior design firm. How do we do that? How do we continue pushing the boundaries?
So they're constantly challenging themselves. I'm constantly challenging them. And that relationship has just become so beautiful in this, like, middle 80.
It's a lot of work. It really is a lot of work. And they're. They're like rock stars. They're amazing at what they do.
And then that last 10% is really me coming in and saying, okay, I want to triple check our numbers, because I tend to be much more strict on our budgets because it's gotten me in a lot of trouble in the past.
I want to see the proposal packets before that goes out to the client. I want to see what those renderings look like before we take any time to put that into watercolors. I want to see what this presentation looks like to make sure it has my stamp of approval on that last 10%, you know, and then I do the client presentation with them in the room. Everyone is there.
And I'm also someone that we're like, we're live doing all of this. So if a client's like, I don't know about that one.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Great.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: I don't want to, like, think about It. Let's go pull, like, three more for this, and, like, let's live, make this decision so they don't have to go back and think about anything. It's already, you know, we've already premeditated that.
But at the end of the day, with a lot of people don't, I think, want to admit about this job is that it's a sales job. We are sales people. This is. We are selling a vision, and we hope that they buy it. And that's, you know, it requires.
It requires some sales expertise. And I think being able to tell a story of what you're doing is.
That's the skill, really.
And I am so proud of this team to be able to say, I really do that first 10 and last 10, and they handle that 80%, and they know what's expected of them. And I think it's because of all those other things we talked about that they're able to be set up for success.
[00:55:16] Speaker A: When we're talking last 10% as well. Initially, when you mentioned 10, 80, 10, I was thinking, like, you're the one who's there at install. You're the one who's, you know, cutting the ribbon with the client as they walk into their house type of thing. Do you also feel like you swoop in at the end? So from a client's perspective, they were sandwiched with Nicole the whole time.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: Oh, 100. I'm always at the installs. That's where my, like, my fashion styling kind of comes in, too.
I usually style my own shoes. I love that, you know, the accessorizing and the. The art. I. In my career, where I couldn't afford anyone, I was my own handyman, you know what I mean? So I've become very useful in those ways, and I love that part. I love, like, making it a home, you know, and that's really, like, what it is. And then that final day when the clients come, if it's done, done, and we can photograph that day. Amazing. Then we can, like, we'll be, like, signed and sealed and delivered.
But the. The team likes to be involved in those days. I'm involved in those days. You know, it's. It's like, they're beautiful moments where, like, they come home and they're just, like, blown away.
[00:56:30] Speaker A: Yeah,
[00:56:34] Speaker B: this is.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: This has been so good. I'm like, I don't want to wrap up. What other questions can I come up with? I do have a couple other questions, though. So you have built a studio with significant press, very major impressive clients, and a Move back to the most competitive market in the world, all without that formal design degree.
What did building credibility throughout the last 10 years really require of you in the earlier stages of your business? Obviously, having a studio of 12 people over 10 years, like, the credibility is there now. But when you were getting to that point, what were some actionable steps that you took that you think helped add that level of credibility without the formal background?
[00:57:23] Speaker B: I think it's the team. I think being able to really grow beyond myself is the way that.
Because look, do people want to give you a 10,000 square foot place knowing that there's one person working on it? Like, no. They want to know that there's a team behind you that's like executing on the day to day because we're working on 12 jobs at a time. Like, there's no way for one person to handle. Granted, I did this alone for nine years, so I just didn't do anything. I didn't sleep, I didn't do anything. But I thought I had to, you know, I thought I had to meet a client. They tell me what they want, I give them what they want and I move on to the next job. And I did that for a really long time. And it wasn't until I started feeling confident enough to say, I know you like that, but we're going to flip that on its head and I'm going to show you something that you probably don't think you like. But you have to trust me and have a relationship with them built on trust. It took a really long time to get to that point and then trust in myself to say, Nicole, you can't do this by yourself. You just can't do it. Things are, things are like happening, things are breaking, things are just not working. You know, you can't hold the, the weight of the financials, the receiving facility, the marketing, the, the purchasing, the, the sourcing. Everything started to like, get a little watered down on, you know, as you want to grow. And then you can't really put the effort you want to put in there because you got to focus on something else. So it's time to move on. Fine, forget it.
When you can figure out what you're spending your time on and then hire someone who's better than you. Don't be scared of people who are smarter than you. Don't be scared of people who have done it before.
Don't be scared of people who are just more talented. Embrace that level of learning that you can do from someone else and bring them onto your team and all of a sudden you can do things that you don't. If you want to stay in the creative weeds of it, that's totally fine, that's your prerogative. But then get someone to do the stuff that you don't like to do. Get someone to do the stuff that takes that off your plate so you can focus on being really creative and put that time and effort to making something special.
Because when you start to lose that in what you were doing, and that's what I was doing, it was just, I lost the enjoyment out of what I was doing because I was just working too much. I was working on every single component of this, this job that I just lost why I did it in the first place. And you know, I wasn't, I still wasn't around for my husband, I wasn't around for my son. I wasn't like, it wasn't like I was killing it in that world either. I was like, like failing at both jobs. Like all my jobs I was failing at. And I had to take like a real hard look in the mirror and be like, you, you can't do this without changing something else, you know, and it's time we just like start, stop being so hard on ourselves. And even if you want to start with like couple hours a week or whatnot, you know, it's, it doesn't have to be this gigantic investment.
I guarantee you, you will feel a giant shift and weight lifted off your shoulders.
[01:01:08] Speaker A: One thing, I always like to encourage people, and I know I've said it before, but if you are looking to expand and hire help, whether that's on a part time basis, a contract basis or full time basis, remember to be bringing someone on for an entire role of a task of whether that's a task that they have or a full role and not just someone to take X, Y and Z off of your plate every single day. They should be able to know what's expected of them every single day without you having to give them a to do list. And I think that that is a very easy, very understandable mistake to make. You're like, I'm drowning. I just need someone to help. Well, what you really need is someone who can do a task, start to finish without you. Because until you have someone doing that that's really still on your plate, it's still on your plate to direct someone still on your plate to get them. They need to be able to execute. So I agree that it can absolutely be someone who's helping out five, ten hours a week and Maybe that's a virtual assistant type situation, but it's someone who can do that task start to finish, and that's where you're going to feel the most exponential relief, in my opinion.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: True ownership over that thing.
[01:02:21] Speaker A: Um, okay, Nicole, what is coming up? What is, what are in those verticals that you're planning that you can share with us?
[01:02:32] Speaker B: So we are. Well, we're back in New York, so right now we're working on this gigantic city project that we're so excited about.
Super modern floor to sailing glass that we are just infusing a ton of warmth and character in our vibe into. So I'm excited for that. We've got like six installs happening this summer, so I'm going to be on the floor very soon.
And then for, for verticals, we are really exploring a lot of, like, new things with brand partnerships and collaborations and hospitality and real estate.
[01:03:20] Speaker A: Okay, this sounds very exciting. I am, I am so pumped that you got six installed because that means I've got more work in the pipeline that I get to drool over in your portfolio. Hopefully not too long. I'm sure most of those will be published. There's going to be an embargo for a while, but Nicole, this was, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for sharing such incredible wisdom, personal experience and inspiration. This was incredible, really.
[01:03:47] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me and letting me ramble. Thank you.
[01:03:51] Speaker A: I hope we get to catch up again very soon.
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[email protected] the Interior Collective. Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn Maid, as well as this season's presenting sponsor, Ann Sax. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our list listeners, Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
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