[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: Hi. Today on the Interior Collective, I'm joined by the Brownstone Boys, a Brooklyn based design duo who have built a studio that lives at the intersection of historic preservation, modern renovation, media and brand partnerships. What makes their business especially interesting is not just the work itself, but the way they've expanded beyond traditional client services.
From editorial features and product collaborations to a strong digital presence and storytelling led brand. They have managed to grow visibly without diluting their design practice. In today's episode, we're talking about what it actually looks like to turn attention into leverage, how they decide which opportunities to pursue, how they protect their studio operations while expanding into new lanes, and what interior designers should think about if they want to build a platform alongside a service based business. As always, we'll get into the practical side. Team structure, pricing models, decision making frameworks and what's next behind the scenes this season is presented by Laloy, makers of rugs, pillows and wall art collections that are grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design. Learn more about Laloy by visiting their website loloy rugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow Loi Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. Hello Barry and Jordan and Sailor. Welcome to the show.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Show.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Thank you guys so much for making time for me. To those listening, I absolutely bailed on them last minute because I was so violently sick last week. Thank you guys for accommodating my schedule changes.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Totally fine. Thank you for having us. We're very excited.
[00:01:43] Speaker C: So happy to hear you're feeling better. Thanks for having us.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: I'm so excited to chat with you guys because we chatted. We were supposed to get to do in person. It's been some I saw from your, you know, emails corresponding before this you were like, oh, a couple years ago you were hosting us and I was like has that already been a couple years? And I looked and it literally has already been a couple years. That's crazy.
[00:02:06] Speaker C: I know. It's crazy. Every time we met to talk with each other, something happens and it just always either gets pushed. We were supposed to do an in person panel in Dallas and our flight was canceled so we had to do it virtual for our book talk. And I mean it was so easy talking to you, but it was just very strange for us to do this virtual.
It was like kind of COVID times for us.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: It was our head on the screen, I guess.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yes, you were floating heads. But fate will not keep us apart. We are destined to be together 100%. Okay. So let's go ahead and dive in. I have so much to ask you guys about, but for listeners who may not know your work somehow or really your full business structure, that might be the better way of putting it. How do you describe the brownstone boys today and what you all do as service providers?
[00:02:58] Speaker A: So we are home designers, interior designers, and project managers, and we really do our. The scope that we take on a project is pretty big. So we, you know, we usually start working with a client very early on in the process, and all of our projects are pretty large restorations and renovations of townhomes in and around New York City.
And so it comes with a lot of parts of the project. There's the restoration part of the work. There's mechanical and structural. Then, of course, there's all the beautiful interiors we get to design. And we do everything from beginning to end. So we bring in everyone needed if architects, engineers, mechanical engineers, structural engineers.
We do all the design work and all the drawings and elevations, all the material specifications, and then we bring in the crew to do the work, and we manage the whole thing from beginning to end.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Got it. So you act as the general contractor as well as project manager.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: We don't. We. We bring in a general contractor, but we manage that whole process. And sometimes we actually have to bring in some. Some separate crews, especially with the restoration work.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: Yeah, we lead a lot of our work with restoration, and because of that, a lot of general contractors aren't skilled in the craftsmanship that requires a lot of this restoration work. So we actually work usually with two separate crews. We have our restoration family, as call them, which is like our stained glass specialist, plaster worker, wood stripping, wood restoration. And then we have our GC that handles usually the plumbing, the electrical, and we kind of oversee both of those different crews.
[00:04:39] Speaker B: Would you say that all of your projects are using your services, start to finish, or do you still take on projects where someone's like, hey, you know, we already have been working with a designer, but we really just need this scope, or we just want you to come in and furnish it? Or have you really gotten to the point where you're like, we're doing stuff start to finish every time.
[00:04:58] Speaker A: We almost always do things start to finish every time. We've done some furniture design projects, and we still would. If someone came to us and just wanted us to do furniture, we would do it.
But we really kind of figured out that what we do best is sort of the end to end, you know, full town home, you know, restoration, all the historical stuff. Working in the modern details and then, you know, executing on it. So every once in a while we will do a design project where we won't handle the construction administration.
And every once in a while we will take on a furniture project.
But we don't really. We wouldn't do a project where we didn't do the design.
So we definitely want to make sure we do the design. So even though we could, we could, you know, come in after the fact, after another designer did the design, it's just not something where we would be interested in, I guess.
[00:05:46] Speaker C: Yeah. There was two projects in particular that we came in, I want to say, halfway through the project and they had already assembled the full team. And I think those are two projects that really stick out in for us, being kind of the messier projects that we were involved with just because we weren't there from the beginning. And there was so much work that goes up front, as you know, and I'm sure all the designers listening. There's so much work building that scope and, you know, setting the plans that we just really love being part of. And I think it's necessary in kind of the trajectory of our business right now.
[00:06:20] Speaker B: So you guys work in what I would say is like the most difficult possible place to do all of this. Between the historic renovation and just the logistics of being in the city. How many people are actually like on your team facilitating. Is this just the two of you or do you have.
Do you have minions?
[00:06:40] Speaker A: It was just the two of us for quite a while.
And I think it's about five years ago we decided to hire our first employee. And she was part time when we hired her. She was a.
An architect who had two kids and left her career to be with her kids when they were young and was ready to get back into working. So she. But she wanted something part time for. So it really worked for us because she was great and had a lot of really great skills that we needed, but we also didn't. We weren't ready to hire someone full time yet. So it was a good, a good thing for us. She's actually still with us and she's now full time and she's been with us. She's our, you know, first hire and she's been with us for more than five years now.
[00:07:23] Speaker C: I'm so grateful.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Carrie is her name. Thank you, Carrie. You're out there listening.
And we, we have two other employees now. We have another architect on our team that helps us with our design and drawings and client presentations. And we have a Creative assistant, like, production assistant as well. That helps with all the content strategy and social media content stuff that we do.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: Yes, because that's definitely like a whole. I mean, it's a whole business in itself. Certainly.
Sticking to design services.
How many projects at a time is like a really good sweet spot for a studio of your size.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: So that is a good question that we have been trying to figure out for many years.
And we. We actually every year or so.
And for someone like Carrie, who's been with us, you know, she probably chuckles a little bit, but we have a Brownstone Boys 2.0, Brownstone Boys 3.0.
I think we're on like 6.0 at this point, where we keep kind of like reinventing the process a little bit because we're like, okay, we're figuring out things that are working, things that aren't working, and so we're still doing that. So we actually decided to add a couple of new positions that we're working on right now. We're going to have. Right now we have the two of us, and we have our designers and project managers, Carrie and Garrett, and they each have their own projects. And what we decided to do is have them in a project as a lead designer and then also have a separate project manager in the project. So each project will have a little bit more of a team approach to it. So we're looking to hire those positions now.
But as far as how many projects we. We can have, we in different phases, I would say around 10. We probably have a few that are in architecture and design. We have a few that are under construction, and we have a few that are in punch lists and kind of wrapping up. But it sometimes might get up to 12 or so, but usually, you know, some of them are. There's not much happening and, you know, one or two of them, because we're kind of at the end of the road, but somewhere in there is where we usually are.
[00:09:35] Speaker C: The 7 to 10 range feels comfortable for us. Anything outside that which, you know, projects are all in different phases, and very much a project in punch list is still a project. And we're, you know, dealing with sometimes double the amount of work in that punchless phase. So I really would love for kind of us to be in that seven project range before we tackle a new project.
[00:10:01] Speaker B: I am so curious.
That transition that you're in right now, going from lead designer slash project manager to really distinguishing those two roles. Can you talk to me about the pain points that you were experiencing where you felt like this is why we need to do this because I feel like an overwhelming number of studios are kind of right there or could be there in the next year or two. It's very common for someone to have their lead designer project managing as well. Talk to me about those pain points and also how you're kind of preparing for that financially. I think people get really caught up in, like you guys were just talking about hiring two more roles. It's like, okay, well, how do I cover the overhead of two more people?
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Growing is scary and hiring people is scary. It's definitely something that we've been. We've tried to be a little conservative and slow about growing, maybe to a fault. You know, we probably should have hired more people before. Early on, early on, we probably should have hired someone earlier than we did. We should probably have hired these positions earlier. So I think that's probably a regret that we might have. When we look back on it, it's just not getting our team assembled the way it needed to be, you know, sooner than we did.
But right now, the way that the pain points we're experiencing is experiencing we have our lead designers in a project and there's just so much to do. Just the bandwidth is. We struggle with it in a project. There's. They're big projects. They're, you know, big houses. They have five bathrooms, sometimes two kitchens. There is a lot of structural and, you know, renovation stuff happening.
And it's really hard to switch your mind back and forth when you have projects that are indesign and then you go to a job site and you're troubleshooting like, you know, on site conditions.
And I, we find that they kind of struggle. It's either they can. They are really busy in one and can't do the other, or they're. Or vice versa. So we think that it will be really helpful to have them focus on design and live in design and then have someone else who is focusing on the project management. And it's not that they won't both be involved in the entire project, but I, we, we figured this out actually really early on that it isn't really necessarily always the work that you have to do in a project. It's if you are the one who is leading that part of the project, you carry that mental load like, you know, you're the person who is up at night and, you know, worrying about what is next and trying to figure things out and knowing that, you know, you have to respond to client emails when they come in. And so I think spreading that between two Roles will really be helpful for people so that they can focus on, you know, the. The task at hand.
[00:12:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm really excited for it. We've always led our business with a collaboration opportunity with our clients and we're very much collaborating with them on their home.
And there's a lot of curiosity with our clients, as it should. They just bought, you know, their first townhouse. Most of our clients are first time home buyers and they want to put all of their energy and I think that's something that Barry and I didn't really estimate for is how many who are dealing with that communication. And I feel like that is more of a task of a project manager. And if they can take on that correspondence along with the full team and, you know, everyone answer to their specific role in the project.
I think it's something I'm really excited for just because I think that is a big time suck right now for, you know, there's usually one architect designer on the project and they're the one that's handling all of this and it's just too much. It's too much in a five story townhouse.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And also like switching your brain back and forth like you're in creative flow, you're working on this and then you know you've got a text or an email coming in about a super logistical thing, particularly it could be on another project.
So maybe you guys are still figuring this out because you haven't hired the roles yet. So maybe this is a little workshop session. But conceptually I take it, I'll take it.
Bringing on that project manager. I don't know how you guys handle your billing structure if you really just do flat rate because it's like start to finish. But if this is something that's handled hourly, then bringing on that project manager role technically is a revenue stream in the sense that that role now gets to be built back to clients. And a project manager, I'd say that their billable time should be close to like 70% of the time that you can bill it back. And then of course then you're marking up their hourly rate to whatever it is that you're billing back to the client.
How, before I assume all of that, do you guys charge hourly? Is it flat rate? And how will that shift with this new role?
[00:14:54] Speaker C: So how much time do we have there? I.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: We have so many answers to so many questions.
Well, getting back to your initial question is how we're making sure we cover it. One thing I will tell you that you might think we're crazy for, so feel free to think we're crazy. But we only just started tracking hours to work projects. We were not tracking hours. We don't charge hourly, so we'll share more about how we charge in just a second. But we weren't charging hourly, so we thought, why would we track hours when we're not billing clients by hours?
So we're not, you know, there's no point in doing that. But we, we realize that we, we don't know how many hours we're putting into the project. Like, we, how, how do we know how to set our rates if we don't know how many hours we put into a project? So we figured that out, and we did start tracking hours. We only just started, so we need to get some data behind us to understand what's, you know, what we're doing there. But we have, we, we always have the mindset that. And this is also horrible. And it's like we have to get out of our own way. And I think a lot of people may be in the same boat, but we need to have. We've always had the mindset that we didn't want to overcharge our clients.
We, we were reluctant to raise our, you know, our fees too high. We, you know, we wanted to keep them low. But we're, we're, we're getting past that. And I think we have kind of gotten past that because I think we finally have our rates at a place that they should be.
And so we recently did that.
We're going to revisit that once we really get some data together on the, the type of hours that we see going into certain parts of projects, and we might even change it some more. But the way that we handle our billing right now is we have a flat fee, a flat design fee, and then once the. That's for the, you know, the time that we spend in the design phase, getting the project set up, getting everything specified, getting all the drawings done, going through the architectural process, getting the approvals for the project.
And then when we go into the construction phase, we charge a, a percentage of the contractor's contract.
And we started this process the way we do it. We started it from day one when we knew absolutely nothing about what we were doing.
And we just kind of. It works for us, it works for our contractors, and we just kind of kept it. But we actually have the contractor include our fee in, in their fee.
So they, the client, the client just pays the contractor, and the contractor pays us that percentage.
Yeah, it is, It Is interesting.
[00:17:37] Speaker C: It is interesting.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: Maybe it's something we change, but I actually think that we, we, we do better on our projects because of it.
So I think that what we, if we look at the total amount that we earn on a project, it's more with that arrangement than it would be if we just build our clients.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So interesting. And I also could see that you have like, the contractor has like a bit more skin in the game for the design execution, like with you technically being on their team. That's so interesting. Okay, I have a lot to think about.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: We've also always felt that, you know, we, because of what the role that we play in the project, we really do take work off of the contractor's plate.
And so, you know, they don't mind paying us the fee that they pay us.
[00:18:23] Speaker C: I mean, some contractors even give their designers a 10% referral fee.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Speaker C: So for them it's kind of a win. Win. We're taking off a lot, almost 95% of their construction administration, which is pretty huge in a five story townhouse.
So it works out for us right now. But we're exploring the tracking of the hours because we've listened to a lot of your podcasts and listened to a lot of finance out there and we understand, we, we do understand the benefit of charging hourly and I'm curious what this data is going to show us.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Yeah, one thing that we still are working through is that we, we, we put a lot of hours into our projects and we don't have a lot of limitations on those hours because of the way that we're billing. You know, we're not charging the client hourly. So they have access to us all, you know, as much as they want. You know, there's that they don't ever feel bad about asking questions and asking us on site, which we do a lot anyway, or asking us to, you know, to, to do extra work because there's no limitation on it because they're not paying hourly.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: But now seven years into our business, our contract is very on point and that is also something that we're constantly revising. And you know, it's putting in our working hours, it's putting in our revisions, it's putting in photography, it's putting in social media, which is another chunk of our business.
So everything is really outlined and we spend a great amount of time making sure our contract is always in a good spot when we take on new projects.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: Okay, thank you for that segue and putting me back on track because I feel like I could just ask you guys so many questions. We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective. Podcast episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Episode subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions? Subscribe
[email protected] the Interior Collective or linked in the show Notes. Join the Interior Collective Patreon community and let's continue this conversation.
In the very early days of the business, what did you guys do? You feel like you started on the content side of things and then it became taking on clients or vice versa. And when did you realize that one really wasn't going to exist without the other?
[00:21:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, early, early days before Brownstone Boys really even existed, we started just documenting our renovation that Barry and I had very little renovation budget, so we had to take a lot of the work ourselves and we just put all of our learnings into a blog. And it was when Brownstoner, which is a popular like real estate website here in the city, they asked if they can run our blog. So not only did it motivate us to like keep writing our blog that only our family was reading, it put us in front of the community.
And it was when Brownstone would start running our blog that a lot of people in Brooklyn were reaching out, asking very specific questions about their renovation that was in line with our renovation that we were answering for about six, seven months, giving out free advice through our learnings.
And we met this one young couple that sounded like they were going through the same exact thing that we were, had no idea how much money they needed for a renovation.
We met them for coffee and it they seemed like they needed a lot of hand holding and a lot of help. And we asked them if they wanted us to project manager their job and they said absolutely, without a doubt. We had our first client.
She was a social media influencer, where I'm going with this?
And it was almost immediately that she found out she was pregnant with twins and was going to have to lay off social media, but wanted us to document her renovation.
So we became kind of social media influencers through her blessing of her us documenting her renovation. And she kept sharing all of the things about her renovation and we just slowly start growing and growing and then we were like, oh, this is a thing and then somebody said that they found us on YouTube, inquiring to work with us as project managers and designers.
And then that's when we realized that social media was imperative for us to keep growing our business.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: At that point, it was imperative as a marketing tool at that point. Was it imperative from its own, like, revenue stream aspect, or was it strictly content was attracting the clients?
[00:23:19] Speaker A: I think that in the beginning, we didn't really know, like, what, like, we. We decided we would share our journey and our renovation.
And in addition to everything that Jordan just said, also there's a local real estate blog called Brownstoner that started running our blog. So it gave us a lot of motivation to write and we just developed an audience. And I remember that there was a time where we were like, this is cool. And people are reading our blog and we're getting a lot of followers on Instagram, but we didn't really know how we could monetize it at that point. We're like, there's something here. We just don't exactly know what to do with it yet. And so we just kept doing it. We just kept going.
And, you know, that's what we figured out. We could take on clients because people were reaching out to us, like, maybe we should take clients on, and that can be a way that we can start a business.
And then also, in addition to writing for Brownstone or we started getting brand deals where brands would reach out and they were like super, super tiny, little, tiny, tiny, tiny things at first. And that eventually got bigger and bigger. And we had the opportunity to eventually, as we grew, work with all these really amazing brands. And, you know, now we have someone who supports us on our team as well with that. And we have an agent that we work with that helps us with all the contract stuff. And so it's, you know, it really is. And we, for the last, I would say, six years or maybe even more, seven years, I think we've. We've really felt like we own two businesses. We have our design and renovation business and we have our brand and content business. And they're both, you know, surprisingly neck and neck every year as far as how much revenue that we earn as a business in general.
[00:25:04] Speaker C: And when we meet with our clients for the first time, I always ask them how they found us.
And every single one of our paying clients has referred to our YouTube videos, so they kind of know. And never have we had anybody ask us for a referral, which is also interesting. So I think through us putting in long form videos of documenting our Renovations, they feel this comfort of knowing who we are, how we work, and they see the full process. They can go back and watch that beginning demo video, they can watch month's seventh video, and then they can watch the big reveal. And they know exactly the trajectory of what the renovation. So there's almost this level of them feeling comfortable knowing who we are and what our brand is, watching those, that content that kind of gets us more work. On the renovation design side, I certainly
[00:26:01] Speaker B: feel like, I mean, I look at you too, and what I feel like really stands out about your brand is that you are such financial stewards of your clients. I feel like I look at your work and I feel like I trust that they will spend my money wisely. I trust that things are. I feel like you will spend it as if it was your own money. And I feel like in the design world, that can be amiss sometimes, that things can feel very much out of reach.
And so I can absolutely understand that. From your YouTube, someone says, I trust you and I want you. Obviously I love your design work and I love your personality, but I also feel like this is so much money. And like you said, often your clients are first time home buyers, which is a little jaded when we're talking about a first time home buyer in New York City versus a first time home buyer across the country.
But I do think that that really stands out because of the platforms you've chosen to be on. So can you actually talk us through what platforms you are spending time and investing resources into?
[00:27:08] Speaker C: When we're talking about social media, yeah, 100% YouTube. And it's probably our largest expense just because, you know, with more videos comes, you need to be consistent. So because of that, we have these different levels where Barry and I'll still film us on our iPhone occasionally. But then for our big reveals of our projects, you know, we're hiring the videographer, we're hiring a stylist, we're hiring all the things and it's something that we invest in.
So there's YouTube, there's Instagram, which is where we get a lot of our brand campaigns through.
And you know, we just recently launched a substack, which we're excited because Brownstone Boys started by a blog and we kind of went MIA with our blog for the last two years. And now with our new relaunch of Substack, it's a way of that us just getting closer with our community and going back to why we really started. And that is, you know, supporting others that are going through this process and just kind of being their boys on the side and helping them along the way.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: I know people are furiously taking notes right now, and I just want to make sure. I did not hear you mention TikTok. Is that correct?
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Did not hear us say TikTok.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: We did not invest in TikTok.
We will repost all the content that we're making for either YouTube shorts or Instagram to TikTok, but we don't have a TikTok strategy. We don't do any of the TikTok trending things. It's been a platform that we just kind of never put our love and attention into.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: But that's interesting. You do. You do have a TikTok account. You just are recycling content to it. Okay, that's interesting.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's. There's so many things out there and each one takes so much time and effort.
It is not a quick and easy thing, like to develop all of the content and work with the, you know, the. Working with brands the way that we do and having a content strategy, it actually is quite time consuming. And so if you try to spread that across every single platform that's out there, it's going to be tough to do a really good job at any one of them. You know, that you're gonna. You're probably gonna. We touch each one very lightly. And so we decided to really focus on Instagram and YouTube and then just recently add substack to it. We also, we also use Pinterest as well. We actually hired someone to help us with our Pinterest account because again, we didn't have the bandwidth to focus on another one. But we felt like in the design space is really important to have a good presence on Pinterest and so someone helps us with that. But.
But that's where we decided to focus and we haven't really felt the need to put much more effort into TikTok.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: This spring, Laloy is headed back to High Point Market with so many new introductions, including a debut rug collection that's made with a groundbreaking new construction along with a beautiful spring season from Rifle Paper company. They're also hosting exclusive High Point events in their showroom, including one with designer Amberly Louis. If you haven't already, book your High point appointment@loy rugs.com l o l o I rugs.com and make sure to follow the Loy rugs on Instagram and TikTok.
I think what is so great about your content is that your content, you're putting out directly Aligns with the projects you're putting out. And I think that that's because there is crossover. But I feel like designers and studios struggle with that because the content you're producing for Social is sometimes for a different audience than the people who are actually calling you. Can you talk to us about how you've kind of bridged that gap? How, hey, how do you get clients on board to like, allow you to document things? That's something that I hear from our clients all the time, is that like, you know, they sign NDAs, they're not allowed to talk about their clients, they're not allowed to show those projects in some cases.
How are you guys so masterfully bridging your content and what the general universe wants to see, as well as it still being a direct funnel to people paying you to design and build their house?
[00:31:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there's a couple different answers to that question. But for us it's really the knowledge of who our audience is and why they follow us. And I spend so many time, so much time on our insights, really looking at our demographic, who's following us in what cities, why are they following us, what reels do better versus not well at all, and why, what seconds they cut up. I look at all of that because I think there is some truth and insight to that. And one of the things I'm always surprised by is how well our renovation short form content does. So we'll do a little recap reel of one of our projects and we're in month 7th here at a reno and we'll do a full walkthrough. And that content always does well for us and it actually gains more followers that I think can turn into more business for us, whether it's them hiring us for a consultation or maybe inquiring about a future job of theirs. And I think the reason why is because Barry and I spend so much time with our clients knowing the learning the history of the building that they're buying. And we really go into like a deep dive and like work session of naming the project and each of our projects has a hashtag. And we really spend so much time working on these names and there's really deep meaning in some of these names that we work with our clients on because this is going to be a two year relationship with these clients and we want to be invested in some way and also like put our mark on the home that we're working on.
So I think it's because of that extra step that we go with our clients and like Learning the history of the home, that really has been beneficial for us.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: And I think that we probably think less about our clients when it comes to the social media accounts like Instagram and YouTube. We're not really. When we develop content, we're not thinking, what, you know, how. How can this get us future design clients? I think we're more thinking, how can we reach as many people as possible? Like, how can we. How can this reel get as many likes and as many views as it possibly can?
And then. So that's. That's kind of like the first. The first point, but then we, you know, people will see that that will reach as many people as possible, and then they'll go to our website. And our website is more geared toward, you know, our followers and. Or our clients that might come to us to look for our services. So that's where they can see all of our projects and all the photography of our projects and read about our services and what we do and read a little deeper about who we are. Our, you know, our team is on our website. So the social media posts are probably just. We're just trying to get in front of people. And our website is where, you know, maybe people who would become our clients would probably get more information.
[00:34:24] Speaker C: And we also learned a lesson, I want to say, maybe two or three years ago, where there was a time that we were getting a lot of brand deals, which was very exciting for someone that had never got brand deals before. But it was becoming a little too not authentic. And we had to sit back and be like. Because it was traumatizing, you know, being on your phone and not getting the engagement that you were. That, in my head, was like, oh, this is bad engagement.
And it was because we weren't being authentic. And when we were going against the formula that we work so hard to build, there was definitely a step back. And it didn't feel. It wasn't becoming enjoyable. And it was from that moment, I was like, let's just cut everything and make sure that we're doing everything and anything with our hearts and also authentic to who and what Brownstone boys is. And if it's not, then what can I post it?
And it was. Since then, I feel like our con. We're now feeling better about content in general.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: Well, I also feel like the. The platform and kind of the market itself has shifted because you can monetize that authenticity directly on the platforms. You aren't reliant on brand deals in order to make money from creating content. And so I do think that that lets you be a little bit choosier with deciding if you want to work with someone at all as far as a brand partnership goes. And then also like what fits how, how do you evaluate opportunities like press partnerships or collabs through a business lens, not just a branding one. Like at this point where you've had that realization two, three years ago, what are you looking at to make sure that it is staying on track?
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question. And I'm going to give an example that I'm sure we're going to get a lot of pushback for. But it was up till recently that earlier on we were getting a lot of brand campaigns where they would give us product and we were giving that free product to our clients, not charging them.
And we were putting in a lot of time and energy to make the content the best that we could. And it became another job for us really.
And we weren't charging our clients for that. So now we're going into anything that is going to be gifting or in exchange for photography. Well, that is work for us. And that, you know, that might be another expense for us if it's down to a high res photographer.
So now we look at everything from a business lens and being like, okay, what does this really mean? What are those deliverables? What are the usage that they're using? Are we just creating free content for them to post unlimited? And now they're going to get hundreds of thousands of dollars off an ad we made.
So fortunately we hired a manager, which I think was the best thing for us as a business that can really help us go through and redline those contracts.
Because I was just overseeing everything and anything.
So that's been very helpful.
[00:37:32] Speaker A: Yeah, and hiring a manager was a really big turning point for us. You know, understanding how to price and usage rights and that was huge.
And then also I think that when we look at brand deals, we look at a couple of different things. One is we want it to be something authentic. So like what products and what brands would make sense for us to work with and make sense for our audience to see.
And the other is kind of, we always look for things that are, we can have longevity with. So annual kind of, you know, ambassadorships where we can post content over the course of a year. So it's not just one thing, like one, okay, here's this brand that we're working with for this one thing. But if it's a brand that we talk about with our audience in our content over the course of a year or sometimes multiple years, then that's, that's good for us because it's more authentic. And if it's a brand that we actually use and love, then it's even better. So that's kind of like what we look for. That ticks all the boxes for a brand, a partner.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: That's so interesting.
You guys are both very public facing in your brand, obviously. Like you are on the YouTube videos nonstop and you definitely have built, I mean your whole brand is built around the two of you.
How do you prevent burnout? When it comes to the business having so many like front facing demands, you're in front of clients, you are the ones going through that. But then also you have this whole public Persona in a very public place. I mean, I imagine you guys are stopped walking down the street all the time. In addition to this whole digital side of things. How do you prevent burnout and how do you keep some privacy?
[00:39:19] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question.
[00:39:21] Speaker A: That's a great question. And I mean, we've realized that we need a team and we need help and we can't do everything ourselves.
We want to move more and more in that direction. Are good, you know, part of this New Brownstone voice 6.0 that we're doing right now with having the project manager, I mean we're really only 3.0. It's right to the point.
The idea is that we aren't going to be as involved. You know, we're not going to be at every client meeting. We're not going to be on every design presentation. We'll be on, you know, we'll be there at certain milestones in the project and probably pretty often, but we can't be at every meeting and we, you know, we can't be part of every single decision that happens and across every project.
And so that's, that's part of the, the changes we're making.
But it is tough. And I think that we need to, you know, we need to explain that better in our marketing materials that we have about our services so that clients know that they're working with a team. And it's not just us doing everything. So we've done a little bit of that. We need to do more. And I think we could also do that in our content because I think that, you know, our content people ask us all the time, if it's just the two of us, is it really just the two of you guys doing all that? You know, it makes it look like that in our content. Not intentionally. It's Just how we've always done our content. But, you know, as we grow and evolve, we should probably grow and evolve there too, and, and start making sure that anyone who reaches out to us kind of understands that it's not just us. Because, I mean, in a lot of ways that, that, that could even help us get more business. Because some people might even say we want a team. Like, we don't just want these, these two guys who seem great, and I see them on Instagram all the time. But, but is there more, you know, is there a team backing them up?
You know, am I going to have. Is my, my project going to be properly covered?
[00:41:16] Speaker B: So are you guys stretched too thin when you're doing all of this? Yeah, it could. It could look that way.
I think that's such a growing pain that so many people, even if they don't have this, you know, social media celebrity level to them, clients.
When we've built businesses as the face of the brand, clients come to expect. Like, what do you mean you're not the person answering my text messages? Like, what do you mean that? Like, I can't just, you know, ask Anastasia this, this and that, and so many, so many people. I feel like we've all gone through it. It's like you get to a point where you have to explain to a client, you don't want me being your point of contact, like, I am not the best person to serve you. And so finding where those sweet spots in the project to come in and still be the face of the brand and make them really excited and feel really great or settle nerves if they're, you know, a tricky part of the project really is key. So I'm excited to follow back up with you guys in 6.0 to figure out where those, where those really big milestones are.
Do you have thoughts, like, just even off the top of your head of where you feel like. Yes, we will always be at, you know, plumbing or we'll always be doing these walkthroughs and the client will be invited to that.
If you feel from your experience like those are really the pivotal parts of a project.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Yes, we have a series of design presentations that we go through with a client, will always be on the design presentations.
We may not be on every revision call or every, like, ancillary call, but the main design presentations.
I think we'll always be there for kickoff and what we decided to do. Amer projects usually run for 12 months or so on construction, so we thought we'd be there at least monthly and then There might be other times, but, you know, and there are certain milestones throughout a project that we would want to be at, but we'd probably align it with our monthly on site visit. So that's our plan right now, is just to make sure that we, you know, we're kind of. We're. We're steering the ship and we are, you know, putting the process in place and everything is approved through us. So even when our employees are putting together design work, you know, we were approving everything.
So layering in those checks of us being, you know, leading the process, but also giving everyone else space to do their work.
[00:43:47] Speaker C: Yeah. We've spent so much time this past year really revamping and structuring our business for it to be this best version of Brownstone Boys 3.0. We just got a studio space this past October, which has been a game changer internally because now we're collaborating as a team. And we're also really, you know, before we were all in our own little silos and, you know, meeting at job sites when necessary, but now we're like, really, like, working together. And I'm so excited for this. And I think the team energy has just changed drastically since us being there since November.
And then, you know, Barry and I also.
I don't know if you know this. I'm sure you do, but we're life partners. We're business partners. We're with each other 24 7.
And it was up until recently we were doing everything together. And then we realized after we had a very powerful three day work session with the business coach that we need to divide and conquer in order to achieve our full list of everything that needs to be done. So there's items that Barry is solely responsible for, which is for the better. Because I am not a project manager. I'm way too emotional and I recognize that. So I should not be involved in these really tough conversations with clients. But instead, I'm really a strong creative and I should be, you know, driving the marketing side of our business.
So now that we're kind of like more running our own P and L, if you will, it's been really beneficial. And I could see, like this conversation that we're going to have with you in a couple of maybe a year is only going to be the best version of Brownstone Boys possible.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: Can we talk real quick about Business Coach?
It sounds like you had a really good experience and it was like a three day work session. Can you just touch a little bit about, like, why you feel it was worth it what made you decide it was time for a business coach? I think just knowing your timeline, you'd already hired a manager for your content side of things, you had already hired your employees. What made it time for a business coach? And did you feel like it was worth it?
[00:45:56] Speaker A: I mean, we've always felt like there's so much that we don't know.
And even if we're doing things the right, most perfect way, it.
We never know. Like, we always doubt ourselves. You know, we might be doing things like, exactly the way we should, but we have no idea because how would we know?
And so it was really, really helpful for us. We was. We've never worked for another design or architecture firm.
We started our company without having that knowledge and that background. And I was all think about all the time, like, this would be so much easier if we. I spent five years working for another firm and then we split off to make our own. We would kind of know how to do it. We'd have a model of how to do it, and we never had that model.
So it was really important for us to be able to just talk through how we do things and see where there are holes and get someone else's opinion on, you know, who we should hire next and how we should, you know, structure our employee pay and, you know, how we should think about our process we go through with our clients. And so, yeah, it was, it was very, very helpful.
[00:47:03] Speaker C: And we researched a lot of business coaches and they were all, they all brought exciting and interesting. And I think the one that we moved forward with, the thing that sold us is it was an entire service that we were hearing from everybody, but it was a three day and her company is called Fast Forward.
And she did every work sessions not only with us, but every person that we interact with, whether it's our team or our manager or subcontractor. She talked with them. She had one full day to assess, and then we had an operating plan in place after these three days.
So we gained so much knowledge. And it was an intense three days, but it was all streamlined. Because what I was fearing is that the ones I was hearing with everybody else was just an ongoing service.
And yeah, it, I knew the benefit of moving forward, but I knew that we had this time, this limited time that I wanted to take full advantage of.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, instant results. That's what, that's what we're all looking for. Well, I'm so glad that I got to have this interview first so I could reach out to Fast Forward before everybody Listening does.
[00:48:17] Speaker C: We're also a little scared of her, which I think you should be kind of scared of a business coach.
[00:48:21] Speaker B: Yeah, you should be. You should be uncomfortable.
Question when you were looking, I. I just find the concept of business coaches so interesting, and I think that they can be so beneficial to some people, and I've never worked with one. Did you decide to go with someone who was, like, in this industry, or did you specifically want someone who was not specifically in this industry?
[00:48:41] Speaker A: We went with someone who does a lot of work in the industry, but also a lot of work outside the industry.
So she was more of a general business coach. Not necessarily. You know, there's so many people doing, like, interior designer classes and online classes, and I think a lot of them are really, really great. Because if you want to start interior design business, it is. It's great to. To kind of, like, understand it's a very specific industry. But we kind of wanted to broaden it a little bit because we not are not only an interior design business, we also have our, like, brand and marketing side. We also do, you know, licensing deals, and we, you know, have some other things going. A book came out a couple years ago. We just have a.
We felt like we had. We wanted a little bit broader of a conversation than just about how to run an interior design business.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: How much credit or, like, weight do you put into the fact that you are so geographically specific?
[00:49:44] Speaker A: We put a lot of credit into that. And it's. And we, you know, we always say, like, Brooklyn is the third brownstone boy, and New York City in general is kind of like a really big part of what we do.
We love the community. You know, we love. That's one of the things we love about the buildings that we work in is we really, really love the types of communities that they create.
And it's really important to us. And we actually. We have so much work here. Most of our work is in Brooklyn, and we live in Brooklyn, and our studio is in Brooklyn, and we do have some projects in Manhattan as well. But. But, you know, it's really great to be able to be here and close to all of our projects. And we haven't really had the need to go outside of New York just because of the amount of work that we have here.
[00:50:32] Speaker C: We did take on a Chicago project, and I love Chicago, and I wish our firm could be kind of all over the U.S.
but the demand of work in Brooklyn and New York City is just spectacular. And we're so fortunate that our niche is so right here. And it's like literally 20 minutes away that we walk into one townhouse, and it's just. It feels like an entire different project, even though it is a townhouse, a row house. But these houses, not. Not one is built the same. And there's new things to explore on each and every project that we tackle.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: How do you.
How do you use that to your advantage when you're talking about content and you're looking for, you know, what matters is the most possible views. And so you're trying to appeal to a wider audience, but then you have this incredible pipeline literally in your neighborhood.
[00:51:28] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a hard question.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: Well, we've thought a lot about how. I mean, you know, we're also a business, and so we're trying to figure out, like, you know, we can only take on so many projects a year, and we get a lot of inquiries, and we have even a bigger audience who wants to engage with us and frankly, wants to work with us in some way. And it's. It's one reason why we started our substack is to be able to, you know, kind of monetize on that a little bit more than we were.
We also have some other ideas on how to potentially provide something that anyone in the country or world can buy from us if it's not, you know, working directly with us as a service. It's tough in the service industry. You know, you can't sell an unlimited amount of units when you're a service industry. We only. We can only take on six or eight projects a year, but we, you know, we might have 300,000 followers on Instagram. Then, you know, what about the rest of them? So, you know, we. We're looking for ideas for that. We have some ideas of some things we want to do on our website, and we, we started our sub stack for that as well.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: No, what is something super top secret that you're working on that you can share with us as we wrap up?
[00:52:44] Speaker A: I guess we do have something.
[00:52:46] Speaker C: We do. So we are working. We just finished design, and we're about to get the permits for a dream project, and it is revamping a carriage house, and it is for celebrity Lizzy Kaplan and her husband Tom Riley, which I was. I'm such a fan of her and him, and they've just been so lovely throughout the entire design process.
And we're really, really, really excited to kick this project off. So that's been like a dream in the works, and it's like, on this perfect street in Brooklyn and.
[00:53:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's that's probably our, one of our more exciting projects that are kicking off this year. And then we also are working on a little TV thing right now that is going to come out and it's going to be definitely on a young YouTube and, and possibly on streaming network as well.
[00:53:46] Speaker C: Yeah. So the show, they've been working on it for a while. It was greenlit. So now we shoot the, at the trailer, whatever.
[00:53:54] Speaker A: The pilot.
[00:53:55] Speaker C: The pilot. Thank you.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: The word.
[00:53:57] Speaker B: Yes. I'm in TV too. Didn't you know?
[00:54:00] Speaker C: There you go.
So the pilot. But yeah, I hope we bring a little of the Brooklyn to this as well, which can always be a fun project.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: That is so exciting. And you have a new puppy and a new office, so things are moving and grooving.
So for designers listening, who would want to grow beyond client work someday beyond just trading time for dollars, what is one mindset shift that you think that they could make now in anticipation of that later?
[00:54:38] Speaker A: I mean, I think it's like what, maybe what we were talking about with how, you know, we don't, we don't think about our social media as a way to get clients for our design business. It's not, it's not the goal of our social media. It really is not. It definitely does that for us. You know, like 99.9% of the clients that reach out to us and inquire about working with us start with, I've been following you for years.
They know all of our projects. They know them by name and that, you know that. So it works. But it isn't what we're trying to do with it. And, you know, we're trying to reach a larger audience. We're trying to, we're trying to develop more of a brand with our social media and our content strategy. And that's one of our goals too, is to, to, you know, to be a brand and to, to be a recognizable brand, to have products and licensing deals and, you know, the sky is kind of the limit there and that there's a lot more opportunity to reach a lot more people and to develop your business beyond just working for two or three or four or ten clients or whatever you can do in a year. And so that's always been our goal.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: Well, I can't help but think the fact that you, your goal is not to get clients on social is exactly why you do get clients on social.
Yeah. So I think that that is a really honestly refreshing insight because I think that sometimes people can put so much pressure on creating the perfect content that's going to attract exactly that next client, when in reality, like you said, you can only take on two, three projects a year. So do you really need to put all of these resources into attracting those exact people on your social media, or could you be looking at it as a different opportunity?
[00:56:23] Speaker C: Yeah, and I think it goes back to what I said earlier about being authentic and when you're not authentic and you're not promoting something that you feel so strongly about. For us, it's restoration. So anytime I lead our content with restoration, a, we're enjoying it, B, the audience is enjoying it, and C, it's just, it makes sense. And I would just say to anybody out there that is wanting to explore content first of all, like realize what your passions are and then lead content with your passions.
And that would always, for me, always drive a successful content strategy.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: Well, guys, this was amazing. As always. You have just won me over with your charm and openness and graciousness. So thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you for rescheduling for me and I just cannot wait to see what comes next out of the Brownstone Boys.
[00:57:25] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Angelica. This is wonderful. A dream come true. So thank you for having us.
[00:57:30] Speaker B: We will talk again soon, I'm sure, for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so so much for tuning in to to this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
