[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Hi, welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host Anastasia Casey and today I'm thrilled to be joined by Sam Sachs, Ontario based interior designer, former magazine editor and consummate storyteller whose work masterfully blends creativity, strategy and historical context. As the founder of Sam Sachs Design, Sam has carved out a niche working with highly analytical clients. Think lawyers, doctors and financial professionals who don't just want a beautiful home, they want to understand the why behind every decision. In this conversation, we're diving into how Sam has built a design process and presentation style that speaks directly to the left brained client. From using architectural history as a strategic storytelling tool to delivering visually refined yet logic driven presentations, Sam shares how she earns trust, builds alignment and avoids hour of costly back and forth. You'll hear how her time as a writer gave her the language to translate intuition into clarity and how her detailed intake process process filters out client compatibility from the very first conversation. We also impact how she structures presentations to maintain creative control while still appealing to highly analytical thinkers, essentially selling your design process like a business case.
Whether you're refining your presentation style, working with more corporate clients, or just want to build a more efficient and aligned process, this episode is full of gems.
[00:01:28] Speaker C: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective. Podcast. Episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions. Subscribe
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[00:02:09] Speaker B: If you've been listening to the Interior.
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Collective for a while, you probably have.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Heard all kinds of software recommendations and maybe even tried a few. But if your system still feels kind of all over the place, I totally get it. That's exactly why I wanted to share Materio that's M A T E R I O. It's an all in one platform built just for interior designers. From concept to install and everything in between, you can try it for
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Hello Sam, welcome to the show. I'm so so so excited to dig into this because after like reading your history, your background, I just have like such a girl Crush on you and reviewing your portfolio is so inspiring. I just can't wait to dig into all of that so deeply and right back at you.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: I think everything you're doing is amazing. I love that there's a little bit of a beautiful business focus on design because I think that's the thing that we all struggle with. Nobody's trained for it.
So, so excited to talk about it all.
Yeah.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: And actually that we get into that as we talk about kind of no matter what your background is, no matter how technically trained you are, this is the side of things that doesn't seem to be really taught, even if you went to school for this or if you've been figuring it out on your own. So I'd love if we could start from the very beginning. Sam, you came into the design world through editorial, not a tr. Traditional design degree.
So what did that path teach you from that formal training? Might not have. Let's talk about what your background is and why you think it actually is work to your benefit.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: So I.
So my. I thought I was gonna write like the next great feminist novel. That's what I thought I was gonna. I was gonna be the Margaret Atwood of my generation in my. In my, like, sort of late teenage dreams was what I always thought.
But I was always obsessed with design and I always saw myself as an artist of some sort. So I start my career and I'm picking up like any writing gig that I can get, and I end up with a bunch of clients and one of them is House and Home magazine, which is kind of the big Canadian design magazine. And I end up writing about, among other things, including like, women in investing and tech, which I should never be writing about either of those things. I end up writing about design for a few outlets, like also a bunch of the papers. There's another great magazine in Canada, Canada called Style at Home. I'll start that again. There's another great magazine in Canada called Style at Home. So I was writing for them as well. And eventually I landed what I thought was my dream job, and it was as a features editor at House and Health.
And by that point I'd been writing about design or producing design TV shows for about 10 years. And so I was like, it was just this amazing, amazing, like it was like a 10 year education of just talking to everybody who is anybody in the design world. Like, I felt like I interviewed.
I remember interviewing Vincent Wolf and thinking what an incredible. Like, I just couldn't believe I was talking to him. I still have a book signed by him.
I spoke to Bunny Williams about, like, what her favorite sheets were. Like, I just got to ask all these people and then all of my Canadian icons as well, what, what they're like, what they've done right and what they've done wrong and what they wished was different. And then I also got to sit alongside the other editors at Hess and Home who were vetting which projects were going to make it into the magazine and which weren't. So I really got like an inside view into, into everything that made a great space.
And also, like, this is kind of weird, but I think I, I got like, I kind of see my rooms in vignettes. Like, I see them in that visual. Like, like we just renovated our house, but before, when we renovated it the first time, I was obsessed with this one sight line down to this fireplace that, like, made the room largely unusable the way I wanted it to work. But, like, I was, I was, I'm obsessed with those sight lines and I think that's where that came from. So it just gave me this incredible window into and like a 10 year study of design from some of the masters.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: It's so interesting you say that about the sight lines. Anytime I'm like, designing one of my own spaces, like, I always know, like, this is the shot, this is the shot, this is the shot. And I figure out how do I get to live with that shot every time. But I think we have such an interesting kinship there because of how you've gotten to interview some of the greats. I mean, I still can't believe who I get to talk to on this show. How do you think that those conversations had helped you shape a point of view on how to actually run your firm? I understand that, you know, you learn from them from, like a design perspective, but were you able to get an inside look as to, like, what was working or what wasn't working and how, you know, so many people were running their businesses?
[00:07:49] Speaker A: I wish, I wish it just, it, it was before. So I hung out my own Shingle in 2008 and when I was, when I was, you know, I was, I was too young and dumb, honestly, to ask those questions of people.
Now that's like my number one question. So I regularly meet with, with a bunch of principals in here in Toronto, but also, like, across the board. And I'm. And I'm listening to your podcast and I'm like, I'm just learning constantly. And it, and my, my takeaway, honestly from all of it is we're all dealing with the same thing, like it doesn't matter.
You know, somebody called me up the other day, I think she's super talented.
And she had this question for me, like, Sam, how do you, you know, how are you getting to this point? And really what she was asking me about was how, how am I getting so many of my projects photographed? Because what invariably happens to, to a, all of us is that the clients run out of money for the end the, the final stretch that's going to bring you to sort of photography. Ready?
And what I was able to say to her, which was like kind of helpful, but probably not helpful, you know, strategically, was like, we're all dealing with it. And that's my takeaway from talking to people endlessly. Like no matter how many times you think that you've honed it and fine tuned it and you've got your, you're never going to come into this problem again. You discover you've just backed into it in a different way.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Yeah. To answer that question actually, because I have heard so many people coming up against that, especially right now with the economy as it is. People get spend fatigue, they get decision fatigue. Two things I have heard a lot of designers are in their contract allocating 10% of their furnishings budget to accessories and that's upfront and that's collected with the furnishings money. When you take that initial, you know, full deposit and that's just allocated and usually those items are not pre approved. It's like approval once it's installed. And then I was just on set with a client last week where we literally brought in everything to style the house and she brought her team, I think she had five or six hands on deck. And they moved out every Lego from the house, they moved out every, you know, dish that was theirs and brought in everything. So it was perfectly styled because it was their biggest project to date. And not photographing it would have been detrimental. It wouldn't have propelled them forward. So those are two things that a, like you can start to protect yourself by allocating 10% of your budget. That is what I have found to be in just your standard. Some people might argue it's closer to five, some people might need more than that. But just so you have a benchmark and then also if you need to bring your own stuff in, bring your own stuff.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: That's my move. Exactly. I bring in like, like we were just having this conversation in my office because I'm literally like, I'm driving like, like in this tiny balled up position because I'm surrounded By everything I own. And it's a huge amount of work. I always say it's like throwing your own own wedding. You know, you have to bring.
It's exhausting. Your body hurts because you have to pull all of the clients items out and then put all of your stuff in. And it's huge.
But she was really talking about. And this happens regularly when people say, like, okay, you know what, we're just gonna, we're just gonna use our sofa or we're just gonna put in. You know, there's sort of like the pieces are just a little bit too substantial to be bringing in your stuff. And it's a, it's a tricky one.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think what you were saying about how you, like, see everything in vignettes, because that's how you were receiving submissions and that's how you were picking back way. And it must have been season one or two. When we talked to Jake Arnold, he's like, if you can only shoot the vi.
Just shoot the vignette, like, just get the shot. And even three to five photos from a project can tell a whole story if you can't photograph the whole house. But I feel like we've gone totally off track now. But I just think it's such a relevant conversation and it's absolutely happening across the board, like you said.
So, Sam, talking about your background, you had all of that time producing interiors for shows as well as working as an editor in written printing form as well. I did not hear that you had any sort of technical design experience.
At what point in your career were you like, hey, I think I want to do this.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: So I, I, what, really what happened was in 2008, when I started, that was right when the bottom sort of fell out of the magazine market. If you're, if you're too young to remember there was a recession and, and everything, everything sort of shifted. So all of a sudden there were like a million writers looking for jobs. I could sort of see that world shrinking. I had always wanted to hang out my own shingle, and I literally just did it. Like, I sent an email blast to my contact list, and it said something along the lines of, like, you know, I'm. I'm starting out on my own and my rate is so dirt cheap. And that was kind of it.
And I think the fact that I had, you know, that this sort of name of the magazine in my back pocket was very advantageous. But I had zero training. Like, zero actual, like, I mean, there's so much, like, I always say it's not brain surgery, it's design, like, and, and you know, I think training is great.
Whether or not it's a four year degree, I have some big question marks around. I'm sure that at some schools a four year degree is, you know, really worthwhile and it's super rounded. But there were pieces that, So I always, I'll start this by saying I had this massive imposter syndrome, like I was starting out. You're going to make mistakes when you start out no matter what. So I'm like making all the classic mistakes and then there's the piece where you're not really making the mistakes, but just stuff goes sideways because it does. And there's so many, you know, you've got, and you've got so many.
There's so many.
There's a domino effect, as we know, to any project. And I'll tell you that I started more of the decorating side before I got into the construction side. And I was really clear about not taking on things that felt over my head construction wise. But I always had this, this fear that like every time I messed something up, like it was because there was this thing that I didn't know that all these other people knew and they were all so good at it and this would never happen to them. And I'm very grateful for my friends in the design world who were already working and were like so generous and weren't, weren't competitive, like, weren't threatened by, you know, another baby designer on the scene. They were just happy to talk me through whatever it was.
But what was I gonna say?
[00:15:29] Speaker B: That you just had felt like your biggest fear was that because of what you didn't know, these things only are happening to you and it doesn't happen to real designers.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: So I had, I, I just lived with this terrible fear for the longest time. And I think most creatives have some imposter syndrome no matter what. But it wasn't till I started hiring people that I realized how much I actually knew. And, and, and also I was deeply shocked by what they were not learning in design school. So, like the people who were coming out of the schools that, you know, there's a, there's a big major university here that lots of the designers come out of.
There was no history of textiles, like none. So nobody knew if you said, I want crewel or, you know, cut velvet or any, any of the things that weren't like the basics, nobody knew what they were. But they also didn't know what the history of those fabrics were. And like, if, if you understand the history of architecture and the history of the textiles, then you understand why one works well inside the space of another.
And they didn't have any of that understanding. And I had that honestly, from writing, like from research and writing. So I was writing about things that I didn't know about at all and then taking a dive into, okay, this is a Gothic revival home. Like what, like, let me research that. What does that mean? What are the, what are the hallmarks of that architecture? So they didn't know that. And then the other piece that people really didn't have was. What's my other one?
Architecture? Textiles. I'll remember in a minute. But there's just, there were just these huge gaps and it was very reassuring to learn that I had this.
And then some of the other stuff.
Oh, I know what the other thing was.
I think I.
There's a history of design. Like the same way that we would recognize that there's sort of a literary canon, there is a design canon as well. And I think that there's like, you know, we can talk about privilege and like all of the stuff that led to that being recognized as the canon for sure, but you still need to know what it is and then you know what you're pulling from. And you also understand like inside that canon are some greats. Like they're sort of the greats of, of, you know, of, of the, the design world. And if you don't know who those people are and you can't reference it and you can't, you kind of, you don't even know what you're playing with. Like, you're just, you're just kind of doing whatever it is you like. Like, I just feel like you need to know that stuff. You need a body of work to build your own work from.
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I know, I've heard from so many people firsthand who did go to a four year program for interior design that they left and they had no idea how to run an interior design studio or in a lot of ways even participate in an interior design studio. So they gained that technical asset, those technical skills with being able to do their CAD elevations and have all of those things which we have found over and over again, so many self taught designers outsource to them because they don't have that technical skill set. And so it really has become what I feel like finding this perfect marriage between, as you call, self taught designers who tend to be more like hustlers, and the technical designers who have that skill set who went to the university to gain those skills, they end up kind of becoming that perfect marriage to execute that visionary's plan. I.
You had mentioned prior to our interview today that a lot of your clients are super analytical. A lot of your clients are in industries like law and finance and medicine. And that language is, is very different than ours. So what were your, what are your first steps to getting them to understand and trust your creative process?
[00:20:00] Speaker A: So I have this very clear process that I've honed over time and if I can lay it out for them really, really clearly. So I lay it out in my sort of first phone call with them, like, here's what you can expect for the first, the first phase of the design process.
And, and it's, it's sort of really clear. Like we start with a Pinterest board and then we take a deep dive into, in. And we only speak in images for the first little while when we're talking to you about what you like and what you don'. If you say modern and I say modern, they can mean totally different things.
And then once, once we feel like we've sort of got the essence, like we've kind of got like we've whittled down these images and we've got a handful of hero images that are going to guide our overall vision, then we get into the initial phase of the presentation for you and it's really, really clear. And it's clear what they can expect in that first phase of the presentation.
And usually it's like I, depending on the scope of the project, it's what I call a budget light. So we'll have said like, like if we're doing, let's say we're doing the main floor with a powder room, a bunch of millwork, and the second floor with a primary bathroom, we'll kind of have, I'll have a cost per square per linear foot for the millwork.
I'll have some of the tile priced out per square foot.
And then I'll have things like two faucets, like at different price points. So I might have like a really gorgeous high end one and then something that's a little bit more palatable budget wise.
And then same for like, I'll have like a couple of amazing light fixtures that I think are just going to be like the statement piece. But then if you're freaking out and you can't, you know, you're not ready to go there, I'll have a backup. But by no means have we budgeted out the whole space. But it's enough. I've sort of my goal in that initial presentation is I. And I work in 3D like because I'm not, I'm not trained in CAD.
I work in 3D. So that first presentation is actually in 3D and it'll give them a sense of, of flow. It'll give you vibes. It's got presentation boards like design boards with, with our hero images. It's got this budget light and then it's also happening in our studio where I've got like as many materials out in front of us for everyone to touch and feel and then we take it away and then we come like we take their feedback and then we come back with our, you know, what we're hoping is our final but is rarely the actual final and we're looking for sign off at that stage. But that's sort of like when I lay it out to people like that and they understand what they're going to get, it's much easier for them to sign on.
We've got like, you know, lots of this is all it also then you know, before, before I do the initial phone call, we send them a bunch of information laying this out and then I talk about it in our phone call and then there's like a few more kind of pamphlets that come out sort of highlighting what to expect.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: As you have been listening to this podcast, you have heard a wide range of software recommendations, tools for sourcing, invoicing, time tracking and beyond. But if you've tried piecing them all together, you've likely ended up with a system that can feel disjointed. And you are not alone. The truth is it is not you. What you you needed just didn't exist until now. Meet Materio M A T E R I O A powerful operating system built specifically for interior design firms. From the first mood board to the final installation, Materio brings every phase of your project into one streamlined, intuitive platform. Procurement, client billing, task management. It's all connected and it actually makes sense. Design smarter, stress less. Try it for free at getmaterio.com Interior Collective listeners receive 50% off their first month question for your clientele those really analytical people when you're sending that initial information this is pre like discovery call. Have you found it to be most successful for it to be just laid out in an a simple email or is it like a PDF, you know a designed presentation something I found at our own studio doing you know, branding and web design for interior design clients is kind of the higher end client the simpler the proposals seem to be successfully. So I'm just wondering with these, you know, doctors, attorneys, what have you found to be kind of that sweet spot when delivering that initial information?
[00:24:59] Speaker A: You're totally right. Like, they're sort of just the facts, ma'.
[00:25:02] Speaker B: Am.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: But because I want everything to look polished, it's it. I put it in a PDF and the language is sort of, you know, I try not to go on too long. The language is sort of folksy in that PDF. I'm just trying to say, like, here's what. Here's what you can expect.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Do you have any certain, like, phrases or terminology when presenting to analytical clients? Have you found, like, if I lean into this, whether that be the budget light and say, like, you have options. This is what I really love.
This. I am okay with. I'm good with. What are some of the things that have helped build trust instead of confusion with clients who are, you know, that left brain.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: So I sort of. The. One of the big takeaways that I had when I was doing an exit interview with a client one time, and this client was super analytical, and I'd really had a difficult time getting her to sign on to any of the. She. Like, my clients are always hiring me because they've seen work and responded well to it, and the work is a little bit different. So it's like not.
You know, they're. They've come to me for a little bit of an adventure, and then often it's really hard to sell them on that in the moment. So this was what was happening with her. And they want. Everybody wants a guarantee, like an. And honest to God, I don't know if it's going to look great. I'm also crossing my fingers and crossing my legs and hoping it's going to work out, but, like, it's always a risk. And I just hurt. Hurt. I had asked her, like, what would have been the faster way for me to get you on board? Like, how could I have sold this to you faster?
And she said, when I explain what I'm doing. So, for example, you know, the reason. There was something I was explaining to a client yesterday, and I'm just trying to remember what it was. Oh, I know. I had a ceiling detail.
It was like a scallop ceiling detail in their dining room. And they asked me if we could switch the direction of it. And I explained to them that the reason I'd had it horizontal was because the room was long and skinny. And I wanted to sort of put some emphasis on the width and then they're like, okay. Like, they kind of.
They need. They. They are used to having a reason for everything.
And they. And. And the, the problem for me with all of this is this, like, my design work. And I think most, like, lots of people's, it's largely gut. Like, it's just like this. I just. This is my instinct, and you're trusting me for my, My, My instincts. And it's an artistic move. And I could break it down for you with a whole bunch of words, which is what I tend to do for people.
But the, the real reason is because I.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: It's.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: It. I think it's going to look good.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Like, that just feels right.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: It just feels right.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I think that that's something that so many of us come up against. It's like, I can. I can research and come up with an answer for you, but. But if you can just trust me, I know that this is the right option if we can explore it further together. Yeah. You have mentioned that clients are most receptive when you're explaining the why.
How. How do you balance those expectations with the reality of hourly billing? So if someone wants you to break down the why behind all of these things and you're billing for your time on an hourly basis, have you had conversations or how do you have a conversation about? I'm happy to explain this for you. For X, Y and Z. I can tell you exactly why we're doing the light sockets this way, but I am going to charge you for that time. How do you kind of manage that?
[00:28:59] Speaker A: I don't. Is the short answer. Like, I am most interested in having a trusting relationship with a client from the top.
Like, that's my number one priority. And I'm hoping that if we start with that and I can spend the shortest amount of time getting there and I can be, like, respectful about not only my billing, but their time. So if you've got somebody super busy, if I can answer those things quickly or every now and then, I, I just say to them, I can't tell you why. Like, I can come back. I'll think about it and come back to you. But I. This is just my, My gut. And at a certain point, they do get it and they'll leave it with you, but they, they almost like they're people who are at the top of their own game. They're used to. They're used to having people report to them with really clear, concise answers. And I try my best to meet them there.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: I'm just curious. Do you kind of, like, read a client beforehand and anticipate that they're going to need to know the whys for things. And so you have that pre for your presentation or do you go back with wise when it's asked for?
[00:30:11] Speaker A: I just. I'm pretty good. Okay, so this is the other thing about writing.
So years and years of writing about design, you are explaining every move in a home in. In a written word. So I do have some of that stuff kind of sitting in my back pocket.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And you can pull it out when it's needed? For sure.
Okay, well, let's talk about your writing background and how it's translating into your designs, because you have described design as storytelling, and your clients are the main characters. How do you start gathering their plot?
[00:30:50] Speaker A: So that's. That's what I think I'm good at. Like, I think I'm good at, like, kind of getting the nut of a person. Like, I'll get. I'll know, like, even if I've got, like, a super young couple with, you know, I. I can tell if they're traditional. Like, I can just tell. Kind of. Like, I can. I can tell that they maybe don't want a TV in their living room. Like, I'll just know. Like, you can just start and. And you just start.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: Or.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Or that they. They. They are gonna want proper reading lights next to their bed. And if you put that in front of them before they've asked, they're gonna be really appreciative of kind of things that. So I take. I'm going to start again.
I just take a deep dive into those clients. Like, I want to know about them. I want to know what they want. I want to know. For example, we're styling a place right now, and we know we want to put. We. The. The bookshelves are kind of clean enough that they need to be styled. Like, they're not going to be stuffed full of novels. They're going to be a little bit more refined than that. So we were looking at coffee table books, and I don't want to just buy a whole bunch of design books. I want to know, like, what do you guys want? Like, what's. Like, like, what would you flip through? Like, what do you want? You know, I'm trying. I'm trying to get into that client. I'm trying to understand how they live. I want to know if there's, like, if there's a piano. I want to know if the dog's on the bed or on the furniture. I want, like, all of those pieces, like, do they want the kids, you know, do they, do they want the kids doing homework in the kitchen with them? Or do they, like, all of those things are going to formulate kind of how we're laying everything out. So that's kind of the deep dive into who the clients are. And then I want to tell this kind of very romantic story about them. Like, I want them to, I want them to walk down their stairs and look at everything and feel like this is me being reflected back and I am awesome. Like, I am just the best version of myself when I look around my space.
[00:33:08] Speaker B: Yeah. What happens when you meet a client or a potential client and you're just not, like, vibing with their story? It doesn't resonate with you. Have you ever. But it's a good project.
Have you walked away from a project for that reason? And if so, can you talk us through how you excused yourself from that project?
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I've, I've walked away from lots of projects. And I'll tell you, money's a big thing, so. So if I, like, if, if we're slow and I need to fill a slot, I will periodically fill it with a client that I know is not a good fit. And it's always like, I, I, I sit on the fence of regret with that because I know that there was a really good reason for it. Like, I didn't, it's not like I didn't see those red flags. I saw them, but I still, you know, it was a moment in time where I weighed up the scales and decided it was more important to go forward with it. But it's super easy. Like, if you haven't somebody, it's super easy to say, like, oh, my gosh, I'd love to take it on, but, you know, it's, we're really busy at the moment. We can't, like, there's a million reasons like that. The, the one that I have done a number of times that I think I, I think it's a good call is if somebody is looking for too many bits and pieces. Right. Or I won't be able to make the kind of impact that I want in a space that's a really good opportunity to say, like, come back to me in a year or two years or five years when you're ready to do more. I'd love to work with you.
But right now, those pieces that you need aren't going to be, you know, for the costs associated with hiring a designer, you're going to walk away feeling like that wasn't really worth your while, and I won't have made the impact that I want to leave you with. And that's not great for either of us.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a brilliant way to build trust with them, whether they do decide to come back with you. They found another designer who's happy to do the two powder baths, you know, whatever that might be. But I think that's building that client trust right from the beginning, especially when we are talking about more analytical people. They can understand that one plus two is not gonna equal three in the way that they're asking for it. I'm so fascinated with the fact that your clients do tend to be more analytical because you are so romantic and ethereal in how you explain things, and you're such a writer. So clearly, how do you present design as something more emotional than visual? Especially when you are cl. Talking to clients who think in metrics and not mood.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: I, I think people, no matter what, people understand mood. Like a good example is if you go on holiday, like, people are always willing to spend on a really great hotel, and part of, like a big part of their holiday experience is waking up in the morning in a beautiful space.
So there's like a clear value attached to that. And so if you could wake up in your own space like that, then, you know, it's, it's, it, it's. It's quite logical to spend on it. The piece that I really struggle with on the spending side is we do work hourly. And I've just found that. I know, I know lots of people have moved away from it.
I've tried kind of every iteration of this. So I've tried.
I've. I have. I have tried a set rate or a fixed rate. I've tried. What are we saying? A flat. Thank you. I've tried a flat rate. And I explained to my clients, now I give them an upfront estimate of what I believe their overall costs are going to be. And it's really. I've taken the last, you know, three bedroom, two bath, one kitchen, one powder room homes. I've taken the last few of those. I've looked at exactly what those have cost and then I have given them an average.
But it really, it's still a stab in the dark. I don't, I haven't worked with them before. I don't know how much time they're going to want from me. I don't know how many reviews they're going to want.
I have it in each estimate that this is based on two reviews for each drawing phase. Like, it's sort of really clearly laid out, but you are attaching a dollar sign to your worth, and that's.
And. And we all know as creatives that what we're doing isn't really. It's not done in nine to five, and that there's no question that I was lying in the bath and thinking about this person's whatever or Sunday morning, and I'm going through a magazine or Instagram or whatever, and all I'm doing is thinking about your fill in the blank. And there's no way I'm billing for that time.
But clients, when you're giving them an hourly, still want to see that hourly. And the idea that you would. You know, I've used this analogy before.
You would never look at an artist. Artists painting, and say, how many hours did that take you to paint? Oh, okay, well, then I'm paying you your hourly rate for that. Like, so it is a. A hard thing to explain to people that this isn't just widgets.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: You work across a really broad range of aesthetics, which is fabulous. From everything from deeply traditional to more modern. What do you feel connects all of your work, no matter the style?
[00:39:13] Speaker A: I think it's all super livable. So. And it looks like the client. Like, each one of these projects is a collaboration with the client. So it's like I've sort of found their design bent. So maybe they're hyper traditional. Like, maybe that's their thing. Right. But then I've kind of found, like, their way into that traditional. Because it's never, you know, I never want to recreate exactly the. The thing. I don't know that this. The hyper traditional white kitchen. Like, it's a hyper traditional white kitchen, and it's, you know.
You know, I don't know. There's some modern chandelier, something, right? Like, there's that. We've kind of spun it a little bit, so I'm trying to find the client's way in.
But I also. Like, it's. It's. It's also my stamp. Like, I love. I love design across the board. Like, I could eat it up. Like, I'm. I'm always. I'm like, I've got. I still subscribe to all the magazines. I love. I love just flipping through them, and I love flipping through them like domino from 2007.
Like that. That world of magazines. I have all of them, and I still go through them. And that's like, there's so much in there. And so I'm so happy to take a deep dive into something that isn't the same thing I did for the previous client. It's different.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: So for the example, let's talk about this hyper, traditional white kitchen. And you just, you know, off a cuff said, with, like, a really modern chandelier. How do you help clients understand that loving multiple styles isn't contradictory necessarily? It's part of the evolution of design itself. Like, how do you get someone who is super analytical and says, no, I definitely like traditional to be like, well, it can still be traditional, but as you described it, that design bend.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: So I.
I'm all always. I'll start again. I'm always working with images, and that's the fastest way to bring anybody on side.
So if I can show them a really great image of something, and even better, if I can show them a really great image of something we've done, then I can bring them on side and I can point out, like, as we were talking before about, like, you know, being able to explain to somebody what's been done in that space. So, for example, and. And there's two things. There's also the history, like, the. The history of a space. So I had. You might remember there was. There was the name of a really cool wallpaper maker who was doing it was Toile.
And I think they were out of New York, but it was all like, gangster Sheila. Like, Sheila.
[00:42:13] Speaker B: Wasn't it from Sheila Bridges?
[00:42:15] Speaker A: No, I. Well, maybe. What was the name of the. I'm trying to remember the name of that wallpaper line.
It also had, like. Anyway, they. Basically, it was so tongue in cheek. It was brilliant. So I'll start again. There's. There was a wallpaper line out of the States that was doing sort of this. It was like a punk take or like a gangster take on Toile.
And so there was this. This wallpaper called the Harlem Toile by Sheila Bridges that had this gangster take on Twal. So Twal traditionally has, like, images of, you know, farmers in the. In. In. In the rice paddies or, you know, these. These sort of country scenes in the south of France.
And in. In. In this, they're like shooting each other up. And it was. It was hilarious in.
Witty.
In the powder room of a Victorian home. And it was a really great way to explain to a client, like, here's the history of Twil. Like, basically, you know, there was, you know, the. The British were traveling the spice routes, bringing stuff back to England. It was becoming popular.
And then people were designing with it at the same time that the Victorian houses were being built. And this was, is why it looks great in here and then here's like an intelligent, witty twist on it. So it just gives people like, if you can, if you can layer in some, I don't know, smarts to all of this.
People respond really well.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: You have a really transparent budget forward system for presenting your fees and hours. You've talked to us about how you come up with that average and you're using past data of your own projects to come up with that average for that three bedroom, three bath, single kitchen, powder bath house.
What does, what does the actual proposal for those hours look like? Are you giving a range or is it actually like this is the average and it's kind of a flat number? You said it includes two rounds of revisions per drawing phase. But I'm just curious how you are protecting yourself as you get close to that because they did end up needing way more revisions or because they were slow to make decisions.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: So yes, I, when I, when I put together the budget, I create a range, my budget estimates. And they're, they're like a big range. Like, you know, there's, they're like, maybe I'm adding another 25% into that range. So just for like, you know, let's say it's somewhere between 75,000 and a hundred thousand. Like that's kind of where what that range might look like. I've also said to the client verbally and in the contract that this is an estimate and I don't know them yet and I don't know and, and I've explained to them how I got to that number, that I'm using hard data to get there, but that, you know, they may want more time with me and if they do, I'll give them a heads up like. So we are, we bill internally, hourly. And what I've chosen to do to sort of quiet some of the noise around invoicing is that, let's say, let's say it is $100,000 is what I estimated the design fees to be. There's a phased, there are phases, like sort of points at which they need to deliver bulk sums and those are in the contract. So we might need 25,000 to start and then another 25,000 at a certain point and we hold that money in account for them and then we bill against it and we don't submit their invoices every two weeks and it just stops. Like I had this PTSD and I still have it from every time the invoices would go out, I would get this rally of questions from clients and I'd have to go back and comb through them. So instead, and clients don't necessarily understand, even though I've explained it to them, that the upfront portion of the design process is really the most labor intensive. And so rather than have those conversations, I've just chosen to take the lump sum bill against it. And then I'm watching exact how they're tracking. And if I'm seeing that for that first 25% they're tracking over, I can give them a heads up and I can say, you guys, I just want to let you know we're billing more than I anticipated to. Here are a couple of ways to pull it back if you want to, but we're here for you as much as you want us.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: So when you're collecting those retainers and billing against those retainers internally, can I ask what those kind of phases are? Are they based off of just like time, so, you know, like internally for your company? Okay, in four months we'll get another 25%? Or is it like, okay, first round of drawings have been delivered, now we collect that next retainer.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: It's first round of drawings that been delivered, now we collect that next retainer. So it's not really a monthly amount. It's more like it's really clearly about exactly what they've spent and how much time their project has taken. And the other thing that I say to these sort of very analytical people when I'm describing, describing our process is that, you know, if I'm going to give somebody a flat rate or flat fee, I need to add in a buffer because I really don't know where we're going to land.
So it's a, we're kind of playing a game of chicken about who's going to, who's going to be the loser and who's going to be the winner in this game. Maybe they're going to use more of my time and I'm going to lose out out or vice versa. And they're going to lose out.
The most fair way that I have found is if somebody is being billed for exactly how much time their project is taking.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: I completely agree. I think even flat rate should be based on hourly.
I am curious to circle back to something you talked about earlier in the show. For those hours in the bathtub, for those hours that you spend on Sunday mornings.
That's just part of being a creative. That's just part of gathering inspiration. It's part of Doing the research. We say that hourly is the most fair, but then we're also like, of course I'm not gonna bill them for that time. How have you processed just internally to get to the point of deciding that that is how I'm going to run my firm. I am not going to include those creative moments because I don't freaking wanna take out my phone to log that time because I'm flipping through magazines.
I'm just curious kind of how you got to that decision to not include that.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: I am endlessly having these conversations with clients where I'm justifying my value. Like, it's just, it is. The reality of this industry is that, you know, people, you know, the, the, the other thing we don't do is build. You know, I don't, I don't take a finder's fee from a contractor. Like, I'll connect the contractor with a client, but I'm not taking any money from that contractor. And I, I try and make that really clear to the clients because it allows me them to really trust that I'm their advocate. And if they're not happy with something, they know that I'm going to be a fair. Give them a fair response. But I know that if the build was 1.45 million or 1.55 million, the clients actually don't bat an eye.
Like that extra hundred thousand that, that the contractor put in there is kind of neither here nor there for them. But somehow that hundred thousand when it's going to the designer to direct the entire thing, like, nothing would look the way it did if the designer hadn't been considering every square inch of your house. Growth is like, questioned endlessly. And I just, I've sort of figured out where my line, like, what I'm willing to go to battle over and what I'm not. And also, honestly, like, what's making me more valuable in the as a whole. Like, I, I would read that on Sunday morning anyway, and, and it makes me, it helps hone my eye and keeps me informed. So that's kind of where I draw that line, I guess.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That totally makes sense. Do you ever struggle with how much of your creative thinking to share? Like, how to decide what to explain and what to kind of protect as your own zone of genius? Just for instance, when there is that moment when you're like, it's my gut. Like, I just know that this is what we should try and you get pushback, that it's like, well, I really want to see more options. I really want to explore this or, you know, I just don't think I like yellow. Even though they specifically called out yellow in a few different instances. How, how much do you defend having to have an explanation for things versus saying, at some point, you have to trust me?
[00:52:12] Speaker A: Well, I'll, I'll say, and clients should really know this. At a certain point, if you, if you pick it apart too much, your designer will stop caring.
Like, your designer will be like, okay, I'm just gonna serve them up exactly what they want. And I'm sort of bummed and I'm not gonna think about shooting this. And it kind of is what it is. And there's, there's, there's two worlds for that. For me. There's, there's like, every now and then I'll get a client who's like, I just know where they, where they're at and I just want to give them exactly what they want and I'm happy to meet them on their terms. And, and they should have exactly what they want. And it might not be my jam, but whatever. And then there's another, another world where people, somebody is just picking it apart. And I think part of is, part of it is anxiety. Like, your home is the biggest investment you will ever have. Like, and it's the only investment people on the whole that really understand.
So we understand. We don't understand our investment portfolios. We leave that with the pros and they decide what to do. We don't understand our taxes and we, like, we never. Nobody ever says to their tax account, you know what? Like, I think you should have moved that over to line 165. Like, or maybe they do, but most people don't. But people are really, really comfortable telling the pro that they hired to helm their design project exactly what they think they should do. And, and they're, they're. There is a point where I will. Either I'll push back and then I'll realize, like, I'm, it's not worth it to me. And then I kind of, I might stop caring.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think that there comes a point when the design just gets so watered down, you, you, you lose ownership over it. You're like, okay, then at this point we're just delivering a product. You've described your work as an artistic practice.
How do you reconcile that with, with the reality that you're working in a service based, budget driven business? Like, how do you find that harmony?
[00:54:32] Speaker A: I don't find that harmony. Like, it's really hard. Like, and we are working in the service industry. And I am like, I don't know. I think, I think also if you're like, if you're a self starter, like, if you're a hustler, you're probably also a pleaser. Like, you're looking. You're looking for a goal star from your client. Like, you really. You really want to knock it out of the park. Like, that's, that's where I'm always coming from.
It's like, I just. I just want this to be amazing and I can't wait to show it to you. Like, it's like, like I'm coming with my little. Like I'm. I'm the dog with the. With the bone in his mouth. Like, can't. I can't wait. It doesn't matter how far along I get in my career, I'm still that, like, dog with the bone, bringing it to. To show it. And. And it is. It is really, really hard to be pouring so much into something and so excited and so invested when the client is really on the dollars and cents side. So I have just tried to really understand, like, the best thing I can do is understand where they're coming from is. It's so stressful. Like, this is your largest investment. You probably had to move out to do the renovation. You relocated your kids. They're, like, not around any of their friends. It's cost way more than you think you would. It was going to, not because of me, but because of like, the contractor or the. Just the reality of a build and you're fighting with your spouse.
And like, nothing could be more stressful than that moment that we come in and say, hey, what about this crazy thing? And yes, it costs like one gabillion dollars. And no, I've never seen it before and neither of you, but I sure hope it looks great when we're done.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: With it, like, because it feels right. So we should definitely spend it.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: It.
[00:56:39] Speaker B: You had mentioned that designs should feel like elevated versions of the client's own story. How do you know when you really hit that mark? Particularly when we go back to the very beginning of today's show talking about that project that, you know, they ran out of money at the end, and it's a killer project. The mill works amazing. Everything that, like, all the hard services that went in are amazing. How do you, like, get to that last exclamation point that you feel like? I did deliver an elevated version of their story, even if we had some bumps in the road.
[00:57:17] Speaker A: Just give me a little bit more. Tell Me. Like, do you mean, like, how do we. How do we finish it? Like, how do we make sure we've got the funds left for that? Or how do we make sure we've got the energy left for that?
[00:57:31] Speaker B: Maybe a little bit of both. How do you end a project on a really high note that has had. Had budget inflation because of construction complications, or they're just a financial fatigue and they don't want to necessarily spend that last styling element? Like, how do you make sure that the client feels like their story has been told in an elevated way with the complications that come up in every project?
[00:57:59] Speaker A: I think one of the other hats that, like, all of the principal designers have to wear is a cheerleading hat. That. And part of what we're doing is, like, we're the hype girls for whatever is happening in a house. So I try and I just. I try and remember, and I try and encourage my clients to remember it. Like, this is supposed to be fun. Like, this is a huge luxury to be able to be able to renovate your home and tailor it exactly the way you want it to and express yourself this way. Like. Like, let's try and just remember despite, like, all the stress that we're going through, that this is supposed to be a really positive thing. And that's what I'm trying to remind them the whole way along.
And it gets the. The point that it gets really hard for me is if a client gets frustrated with me personally or expresses their frustration at me. I, like, I try and navigate that as diplomatically as I can, but I really, I. I am so in their corners. Like, I am so, like, I am the one going to the contractor questioning, like, if this could be done differently. I've spent, you know, five hours before bed just seeing if I can't get whatever it is for less, because I know.
I know it's going to make the design, or I've removed my markup completely from something or passed along my full discount or cut hours because I just need them to have it. Like, so if I've done all of that and I'm cheerleading, cheerleading them, and they're pissed with me, that can be a tricky spot for me.
But my goal is really to sort of just write through it, be like, this is just amazing. Like, this is exciting or empathetic clothes. Like, I know that this is so hard right now because it really is. Like, it's stressful. And then people have, like, massive life events while it's happening. You know, somebody gets sick in the middle of all of it, somebody loses a family member. Like crazy things happen in the middle of huge, like, you know, while your life is blown up. And so I just, I, I try to be their ear in all of that. That.
[01:00:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Sam, so as you continue to grow your studio, what are you most excited about next, either internally with your team or just creatively on the horizon?
[01:00:36] Speaker A: So I have, I have spent the last, and this happens regularly where I'm spending like a period of time putting out fires. Like that's kind of what happens as things get a little bit, as you get growth in your business.
You end up, you know, just problem solving, you know, working alongside your team to, to figure out solutions, popping into clients to like assure them all that kind of thing. And last weekend, sort of last week I realized that I hadn't had like a good flow session. Like I hadn't had one of those. Just like I'm just running with a design. Like it's, I'm just, I, I'm like, I'm just coloring in. I like all of the lines in a way that's so exciting for me. And last weekend I had it and I worked all day Friday. I didn't get out, I didn't get dressed until about 4:30 in the afternoon. I worked all day Saturday, all day Sunday. And then we presented to the client yesterday. And I was super excited about just honestly being in that space, like feeling fully connected and losing track of time and just, and just creating. So I'm very excited to see that project through.
[01:01:55] Speaker B: That is so exciting. I can't wait to see it.
Sam, this was amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your candor and just your hyper relatable balance between your incredibly artistic mind and the realities of working in a service industry that involves a lot of money and what kind of clients that comes up against. So thank you for your wisdom and your experience today.
[01:02:21] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me and for talking through all of it.
[01:02:25] Speaker B: I will talk to you soon and we will catch up as soon as.
[01:02:28] Speaker C: Possible for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective. Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conferences conversations. A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time. I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the the Business of Beautiful Living.
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