[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Hi, welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey. Today's guest embodies what it means to learn at the highest levels before going out on your own. Coco Greenblum spent over a decade honing her craft at five different 8100 design firms, each with its own aesthetic, leadership, style and process. For from her very first role at Emily Summers Design in Dallas, through Creative Chapters in San Francisco with Jeremiah the Wiseman Group and Ken Folk to leading Jeremiah Brent's west coast studio, Coco was very intentional about what she learned, who she learned from, and why.
In just two and a half months, she launched Studio Coco Greenblum in Los Angeles, a full service interior design studio built on the lessons she gathered, the mentors who shaped her, and the pitfalls she vowed to avoid. Today we'll unpack how she strategically chose each firm, balanced creative vision with operational rigor, and ultimately weighed the risks of leaving brand name studios to build her own. We'll dive into everything from team structure and pricing models to client onboarding rituals and mentorship philosophies, practical insights you can apply in your own practice. Whether you're dreaming of opening your own studio or aiming to level up in your current role, Coco's story offers a masterclass in turning experience into entrepreneurship.
[00:01:25] Speaker C: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective. Podcast episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions.
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[00:02:05] Speaker B: This episode is presented by Laloy, makers.
[00:02:08] Speaker D: Of handmade rugs, pillows and wall art.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: Available to the trade.
[00:02:11] Speaker D: Laloy was founded by Amir laloy in Dallas, Texas 21 years ago. It's an incredible story of hustle and hard work that I learned all about in my recent podcast interview with Amir's son Cyrus Aloy. Since then, Laloy has grown to over 650 employees with five warehouses, five showrooms and thousands of textile collections across all price points. Learn more about LOI and start a trade account at Liloy rugs.com that's L.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: O L O I rugs.com hello Coco and welcome to the show. This is so exciting. This is such a juicy episode.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I can't believe I'm here. When I got the email, I thought I was being punked. So thank you so much. I'm so excited.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Well, you are not being punked. This is a pinch me moment for myself, too. So let's go ahead and dive right in. Before we begin dissecting the last 10 years at incredible design firms that you have spent time at, can you lay the groundwork for what your formal education looks like before going into your professional career?
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Sure. Yes. So I went to the University of Georgia, and I originally enrolled in the public relations track, and I thought that's what I wanted to do. And after the first week, I immediately knew it wasn't for me. I was always a very creative person, doing things with my hands. I loved furniture and antiques from a young age from my parents time abroad. And I had a few girlfriends who were in the interiors program. And I didn't even know that that was a career option, to be honest. And I shadowed them in class. I enrolled in some studio classes, and I really fell in love with the world of interiors. And I ended up putting a portfolio together, applied to the program fully, was enrolled in furnishings and interiors, and didn't tell my parents because I was scared of what they would say. But once I told them, they were like, yeah, it totally makes sense.
And I also interned for Kendall Wilkinson in San Francisco, Betty Lee Phillips in D during my my summers in college, and I really felt like that was also part of my formal education.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Oh, that's fantastic. I knew this episode was juicy, but I didn't know it was going to be like switching majors and not even telling your parents until after the fact. Okay, so you finished school, you got your degree, you started your career at Emily Summers Design Associates out in Dallas. Walk us through how you got that job with two internships under your belt and how that what that role right out of school really entailed.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: Yes. So I feel so fortunate that I started my career with Emily. I had followed her work for a long time. In my eyes, she was the first woman in the south to truly do contemporary work.
So after college, I was originally going to go to California. I fell in love with San Francisco after working with Kendall Wilkinson, but I had some family things going on at the time that I felt like I need to be back in Texas. I'm originally from Austin, but the firms that I was interested in were in Dallas.
And I found Emily's just Info email on her website. I put together a portfolio from school and a resume and I applied. I didn't hear back for one week and then two weeks and I emailed probably every other day. And then I ended up calling the front desk, kind of like in a nice way harassing them because I just felt like I needed to be there.
And I got an interview and I got an in person interview and I assumed the interview would be with an operations manager. And Emily greeted me at the door and it was an hour long conversation, just her and I. Door closed. And I felt like it was more of her wanting to know who I was as a person and what I wanted to do for her and how she could help me. I don't even think we went through my portfolio. I think it was just connecting on a personal level and we just kind of fell in love with each other in a way. And it was such an incredible experience. I was the only design assistant for the New York and the Dallas offices for probably half my time there. And I was there for three years.
So I was really able to touch every phase of the design process. I was immediately client facing, which was essential to me and my learning experience.
And I, I still think about those experiences daily and refer back to what I learned with Emily and I just, I just miss them.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that is so sweet. I love the hustle, the commitment to getting that, getting that job. A couple of follow up questions. A.
When you were putting together that portfolio from school, can you walk us through the logistics of in your personal experience and what you felt comfortable doing? What work were you comfortable sharing? Because you had had two internships at that point, Was it strictly just stuff that you did in school? Did you include work that you, you, that you worked on while at the other studios? What exactly was included in that portfolio you sent out?
[00:07:21] Speaker A: It was a little bit of both, to be honest. With Betty Lou Phillips in Dallas, I helped her put together one of her books, which was a great experience, one of her design books. So I put some of that work in there. With Kendall, I created a mood board and some concept work for a project in Tahoe. So I definitely put that in there. But of course that was maybe like one to three pages. And then everything else in my portfolio were different residential projects, different palettes, different things that I had created models or renderings of and tried to like create a story of and try to sell like my perspective in a way because, you know, in school everything is kind of make believe and nothing goes wrong in those projects. So there's only so much that you can show, but I think as a young designer, it was more just trying to find the confidence within yourself to kind of like impress your principal or want them to bring you on in some way. Like, what can you bring to the table and what. What can you offer?
[00:08:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So many times, as you've heard on the show, we're talking to designers who are hiring designers with degrees for their technical skill sets.
How did you articulate or showcase the technical skills that you had from your degree or were you really leaning into. I want to be designing, like on the creative side. And yes, I have the skill set in these softw softwares, but you were really pitching your eye.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: It was a little bit of both. I. There was one project in school that was, I think, a house in Rhode island, and it was kind of like from concept through the bid set and all the drawings and then to renderings or like, what the install would look like. And so I. I do want to showcase all of my CAD work because I took a very intensive CAD program. We learned Sketchup Revit. I don't even know if it was around then, to be honest, but I did want to showcase those skills because a lot of the senior designers at some of these firms actually didn't know cad. So a lot of the principals were looking for those design assistants to bring those new skills.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, great. So in that first job, the. That two and a half, three years that you were there. I'm sorry, you said about three years. Emily Summers, what were some of the first business lessons you learned there? And how did getting that client facing experience differ from what you were taught in school? Because we always talk about how school teaches you to design, but it doesn't teach you to run your business unless you're also getting your NBA on the side. So talk to us about kind of like what that experience was.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Yes. So watching Emily present to a client, I felt like I was almost like watching a movie. I mean, she was so professional and elegant and just how she, like, presented a palette. But, like, I felt like she was kind of putting on, you know, her best face. But. But we are salespeople in a way, you know, like we're selling our ideas and our concepts and trying to get our clients to buy them, literally. So I think just watching her interact with clients, and one big lesson I did learn was that the client is always right, even if they aren't. And if something shows up wrong on site and it not necessarily the client's fault or the Fault of the studio. She would, you know, almost cover those costs, but in the long run, it paid off because those clients would come back. A happy client makes a successful project, and repeat clients are gold and amazing. And so I think just how she valued her clients was so important for me to see at a young age.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: That's such a helpful reminder because, like, we are such a systems and processes studio, and it's like what we teach at design Camp. But I think that it's such an important reminder that, like you said, a successful project is really if the client is happy or not, no matter how much you loved the project or love the finished piece.
So thank you for sharing that. I.
You guys are just gonna, like, your minds are gonna be blown when you hear where else Coco has spent time. So just walk us through your next.
I guess it would be four more studios that you were at, and we'll talk about where you ended up before launching yours. So talk us through what happened after you left Emily Summers.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Yes. So I've definitely been around the design firm block.
I am a crazy person, but I. So I was with Emily for three years, and it was my goal to be at my first studio for a minimum of three years. And at that point, I was 25, I was single, and I was like, if I'm ever moving to California, it's now or never. And I kind of had the same process of finding my Dallas firm. I think I applied to 25 to 30 studios in San Francisco because I really didn't have connections there. I had interned for Kendall Wilkinson, but besides that, I didn't know anyone and especially anyone in the industry. So not only did I want to find, like, my new home in a design firm, but I also just loved the interview process. I loved meeting new designers, seeing their spaces, how they worked. Like, I. I really loved interviewing and just meeting people in the industry.
And I interviewed with Lauren Jeremiah from Jeremiah, and she was. I immediately could just tell how creative she was, and it was.
I just. I wanted her to, like, rub off on me in a way. And her background is heavily based in art and art history and kind of, like, the importance of art in a home and what a story that can bring to a family and a space as well.
And I was with her for about a year, and then I moved to the Wiseman Group under Paul Wiseman, and a completely different design aesthetic. I mean, like, when you think of Northern California design, I really think of Paul Wiseman. It's very comfortable, cozy, a little bit larger scale, neutrals, very Large scale projects. I absolutely loved everyone at that studio. I'm still very close with a lot of my coworkers there.
And I had sent my portfolio and my information to Ken Folklore years prior and they weren't hiring. And so they had had my information on file and had reached out to me only a few months after I started working with Paul. And I obviously wasn't going to leave after a few months. I was happy there and I kind of felt like I was like cheating on a lover, you know, Like, I had been emailing back and forth with Ken Folk Studio for, I mean, almost eight months, and I finally felt like my projects with Paul were in a good space and I was kind of craving color and texture and I missed. I missed that. And I was feeling a little creatively stuck just in my own way.
And then I moved on to Ken Folk and I was with him for almost four years. And I would not be the designer or person I am without that experience. I mean, it was a whirlwind, truly. But I learned so much. I was exposed to commercial design, which was something I'd never been a part of before. The clientele was so specific because of his aesthetic. Everything, you know, he did was very theatrical and dramatic and it was just a whole new palette and material fringe, you know, I never used before. And so it was just a great experience. So I got married and my husband and I wanted a new, fresh start in a new city.
And I had been playing with the idea of opening my own studio, but I wasn't sure if I was quite ready yet. And I interviewed at probably 12 studios here in LA and I had three interviews with Jeremiah Brent Studio. And then my final interview was with him.
And it was a very similar feeling of what I felt with Emily. Like I was just like, I love you. You know what I mean?
[00:15:08] Speaker B: He has that effect. She absolutely does.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Totally. And I just felt like he was such a good person and a good human being and I just wanted to be around that. And of course, his work is beautiful and stunning and really like Evok Emotion. And so I had never done work in that way.
And I was with him for almost three years in LA. And then March 1, I officially went off on my own. And that's my story.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: What a story. I mean, Jeremiah Design, Wiseman Group, Ken Folk, Jeremiah Brent. That is quite a roster. Not to mention Emily Summers. To kick things off with that incredible wealth of knowledge and experience, can you share one management practice from each? And you can leave them anonymous. But if you were to come up with five different, like, key pieces you learned from going to those different studios that you've carried over to your own.
Can you tell us? Everybody get your pencils.
[00:16:13] Speaker A: Yes. So I guess with Emily, kind of what I mentioned before is just, like, how important clients are and to make them happy. And I.
I always want my clients to feel satisfied and good with our communication, and I am always available to them. And again, we are in the service industry, so I think just having that line of communication always open with your client, I want them to feel really comfortable with me. And I don't think a lot of people understand how personal this job is, and, like, we really have to understand how a family dynamic works and in order to truly design successfully for the space to function for them. So from Emily, I really gained. Gained that. And with Lauren, she was so collaborative, and she always had, like, amazing ideas popping through her mind, but she wanted to hear from her team first. And I always thought that was so amazing and such a great trait to want to hear what your team has to say before you put your own thoughts out there. So I think just having, like, a very collaborative open studio was really lovely.
With Ken, I think a lot of other studios don't let the full team go to site sometimes, and I think that's because of hours and how, you know, if you bring a full team, it gets really expensive for the client. But with Ken, a lot of it was fixed fee. And so we had the opportunity to bring the junior, the assistant, the principal, the senior. And so for the younger designers, it was so crucial to have them on site and see how a project has really grown from concept phase to reveal.
And so I think that was just a great opportunity to have a full team on site.
And with Jer, oh, my gosh, I learned so much. But I think the art of beautiful presentations and how important that is to sell your concept and that everything going out the door has to relate back to brand identity.
And, you know, your website, your Instagram, everything has to correlate with one another and that it's all part of your. Your firm's story. So I think just making sure everything is cohesive and makes sense together.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: That's amazing.
My mind is just, like, racing right now thinking about all of that incredible experience with. With each firm.
I'm assuming each firm is run differently. I feel like, just universally in this industry, every firm is run differently. And that's part of my mission, is to make it a little more transparent so everybody can see, okay, what could be the standard or what Do I want to take from it to. For my own business?
What corporate. Str. Corporate. And, you know, I say that loosely. Corporate structure did you find the most helpful as a younger designer?
Specifically, like, how many people to a design team and like, what mentorship looked like or lack thereof. If it was more like just throw. Throw me in the weeds, and that's most valuable. Allowed you to learn the most. While having creative room. We hear so often from the top what a studio looks like, but for someone who was not necessarily working from the bottom, but was certainly not the principal designer, which.
Which corporate structures worked really well for you moving throughout those studios, I think I prefer.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: And I've worked a lot of different ways, obviously, but I think I prefer a team with a senior, a junior, and an assistant. I just think for the types of projects I've worked on, in the scale of the projects I've worked on, I think the flow of work makes sense in that way. And I've worked at some studios where the design assistant really has no relationship or communication with the principal. And I don't love that because everyone is designing kind of in the name of someone else, and you have to adapt and learn what they like. And I think it's harder for the younger designers to do that if they really don't know your principal on a personal level. So I think having larger team meetings, at least weekly, where they can be exposed to the principal's ideas or what they're doing that week, or at least get to know them in some way is really important. And the divine assistants really are doing the brunt of the work, which is really the most important. So really, I feel like they're the most valuable sometimes.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:41] Speaker A: That's.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: That's great feedback.
So you walked us through your path through 5,8100 firms, and it seems like it was very strategic. I know to those listening, it's like, okay, that was. You know, you mentioned you were somewhere for eight months, you were somewhere for three years.
Five firms in 10 years can feel like a lot.
Um, what criteria did you use to decide when it was the appropriate time to move on from one firm to the next?
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Yes. So it was 12 years, and I'm still crazy for that. But, yes, it was a very long time. I. I never wanted to leave a firm if the project wasn't in a good spot or the team wasn't in a good spot. And so I would always wait until something had installed or something had been kind of handed off to the client or it felt like a Natural time for the manager to transition. But I also, if I wasn't getting what I needed out of the program or of the studio, I felt like it was my time to move on. Like, if I wasn't learning what I needed to, then I felt like for me, I didn't want to waste my time or theirs if I wasn't super, super invested. And I gave each studio a year, minimum of my time just to see how it went. And I don't regret, you know, working anywhere. I've learned so much from each and I've, I've had incredible mentors at each and have amazing relationships now with all of them. But I think if I, if I wasn't learning, that was kind of my time to reevaluate.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Okay, so if we were to flip that coin to the other side, to those listening who were like, how do I find great talent and how do I keep great talent? And I want to create a path for them so that they feel like they can grow here. I know that there is this feeling in the industry that people get a little skittish that like, oh, my designer's going out to start their own firm or they're going to go to another studio and they get freaked out by that. What are some, what is some advice you could give having gone through that as an employee, to those principals listening to facilitate a really great community and path for your designers working for you?
[00:22:57] Speaker A: I think going back to the idea of open communication and being collaborative, like, I think when teams or principals were closed off, it was really hard for me to feel inspired or want to do a good job. Like, just as much as I said, having flappy clients makes a successful project. I think the same in terms of, of being like inside of a studio. If you're, if your team and your employees are feeling the same way, I feel it's going to be really hard to make a project successful. So I think just having a very family like feel, and I think JR did such a good job of that studio was a family, and I hope to always be a part of that family in some way. But it just felt. It just felt good to be there. I don't know how else to explain it.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. This can be answered more generically, not necessarily specific to you, because I don't mean to put you on the spot, but how much were.
Was financial situ. Financial considerations part of being at those studios? Both, you know, salary or hourly, however you're compensated, plus benefits or, you know, maternity leave or those sort of things. How much was that weighing on you as a designer looking to gain so much experience and knowledge, also contributing to those decisions?
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Yes.
So I would say compensation and benefits were a very large factor. I mean, there were some studies I applied to that gave no benefits. And even though I really wanted to work there, I just, it didn't make sense for me financially, especially as, like a young woman in California.
So I, I mean, that was huge. And I will say, every time I moved firms, my goal was to at least increase my pay by 10k, like, no matter what. And so I was always, you know, trying to negotiate. And I think people forget that you can negotiate your contracts. I negotiated every single one, and I think I got that from my dad. But I, I think that's very important to always, like, bet on yourself and like, they, if they are offering you a position, they want you for a reason and you have. It's the only time you're going to have while you're there to really try to get more out of your contract.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: I always say when you're making the jump between jobs is the biggest jump you'll ever have in your compensation package, it's not going to be that sizable within the same company. So that's super interesting and thank you for sharing that so candidly. So some studios probably taught you more about creativity and craftsmanship, and others maybe more about the process side of things. Or those, those were the big key takeaways you took.
How do you balance learning creative vision at one firm with learning project management at another? Like, how are you? How were you collecting all of this data knowing that someday you were going to have your own firm?
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it kind of felt like a natural progression of, like, my quote unquote, professional education.
Because as a designer, we're always wearing so many hats daily. And so I don't think it was one without the other. Like, I feel at every studio, it was kind of. I was learning both at the same time because to progress into a senior role or project manager role, you have to learn kind of all aspects of the design phase and how to also, like, manage client expectations at the same time while also creating a concept presentation. So I think they go hand in hand. And I think that was kind of like the beauty of seeing all these different firms of. Of how I could learn both of those in different ways from different principles.
[00:26:36] Speaker B: Looking back, is there a single project or moment that stands out at one of those firms that pushed you the most outside of your comfort zone?
[00:26:45] Speaker A: Oh, yes. Well, there was a lot of. A lot of hard moments. But I. There is one that I will always stick out to me. But in San Francisco, I was at a studio and it was the week before Christmas and most studios close the week between Christmas and New Year's because clients are out of town and vendors are closed. But we had, we had a client meeting on site and my senior at the time asked me to get there early because she wanted to talk about something. And she told me that she was leaving the firm. And I wasn't, I wasn't surprised because I knew it was coming. But when I asked, you know, when was your last day? She said that was her last week. And we had two huge installs coming up in January right after the break.
So I inherited all of our work and these two huge installs. And I had never managed a full scale install for projects that were 15,000 square feet completely on my own.
And it was actually the best gift she could have given me because it really pushed myself to step up and have the vendors and the principal and the client and design assistants come to me during the install and asking me, where should this go? How high should this be hung and all of the things. And I literally feel like from that moment on I was like a senior designer. And it like naturally it just. That's kind of the transition that happened. But I don't know, I don't know if it would have happened better in any other way. Like, I almost think it was such like a beautiful tragedy, you know what I mean? Because it pushed me so much.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: I love that example. Because we have had at Eco Studio, there has been reasons that someone had to.
We don't have a very high turnover, but someone's left or really I'm thinking of a time that someone had to go on maternity leave two months early in a scary situation, and it caused someone else who wasn't in that senior role to have to step up. And as the boss, it allowed me to see what this person was really capable of in a situation that if it wasn't exactly that situation, I never would have seen them having to take that level of responsibility because they had a senior. And so I think that this is also a great learning opportunity for people to realize that it can feel like the world is crumbling when someone's leaving, but it actually, actually is a golden opportunity for you to see what the rest of your team's capable of or to make room for new talent joining your team for sure. Okay, so we definitely want to talk about Jeremiah. And so Jeremiah Rent Design. You were the most Senior team member physically on the west coast for the west coast studio. What did that leadership role teach you about scaling a team compared to how you are building studio? Coco Greenblum.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Yes. So I was able to be part of the interview process and hiring process for my own team, and that was the first time that I'd been on that side of things.
So it was really invaluable to see how upper management wanted to hire and, like, what we were looking for. And I really had to think about where my projects were, what phase they were in now, but also what phase they were going to be in three months from now. So you're hiring someone now, but you're really hiring someone for, you know, the year and, like, where your projects will be in the future. And so understanding project needs, team needs, and really, like, looking ahead was really great for me to be a part of. And that's definitely how I view my own hiring process.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: So you had mentioned that working at that studio and what makes working with Jeremiah so great is just such a good person. It just feels like family.
And from our conversations with Jeremiah, both here on the show and when he was at Design Camp, it's like he's such an amazing storyteller and can evoke so much emotion. I'm curious how you took experiencing that firsthand and are carrying that over to your own studio. When it comes to brand storytelling and also client project storytelling, you know, creating that environment for someone to really buy into the vision.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's so important for brand identity, especially Mia, such a new baby firm, like, making sure, like I said before, making sure that all of your website, your Instagram, everything is aligned. And I was with Jer when he went through a little bit of a rebranding process. So I was able to see how that developed and how all the documents kind of adjusted and adapted to a new look and how important it was for any documents, any presentations to all be aligned for it to be in a beautiful package for a client to see.
Because anything going out of any studio should look extremely professional and look really lovely. And it really helps enhance the concept, like how everything is laid out. And so I'm. I've always been very, very picky how a presentation looks. We were very particular at Ken Folk how presentations looked as well. Obviously, Ken and Jer's looks are opposite of each other, but I think now in my own presentations, I just want them to be very clean and very easy to read, because something that might be easy for a designer to understand and read might be really hard and confusing for a client to understand.
And so I've been in meetings where an architect has brought their presentation and the design team has brought their presentation, and how those two presentations differ and how a client reacts differently to those two presentations because they might get frustrated if they aren't connecting to something on the page because they just can't understand it.
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So, okay, after 12 years of executing other people's visions, what was really the tipping point that made you say, it is time to launch my own studio. I am. I am ready today.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: There wasn't really like a tipping point, like nothing bad happened. I. And, and I think that's. That's always been the case for me, like there was nothing ever bad that happened. I think, I think for me at my last studio, I had been wanting to work for myself for a long time and I was very, very open even during the interview process, that that was my goal. He had asked me, in five years from now, where do you see yourself? And I said, years ago, I want my own studio. And so that's always been out in the open. And I think I just got to a point where, again, I was, you know, leading a lot of the team and I felt like I could do this. And I think I.
There was a vendor said something to me that I wasn't sure I was going to share, but I'm going to share it. I was at an upholstery workroom in the winter and there was some detail that he wanted me to approve really quickly. And I took a picture and I was like, I want to show the team and him just to make sure, you know, it's approved. And he said, you know, you have more experience. Why can't you make this decision?
And no one had ever said that to me before and I'd never thought about it like that. And I think after that, you know, I went home and thought about everything that I had done and I'd been through and that I had been, you know, building up these other people for so long. And I was like, why can't I do this for myself and finally be brave enough to do it?
And then that was that. So thank you to that vendor for saying that.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: How did you weigh kind of the financial and reputational risks of leaving such established, you know, 8,100 firms to go out on your own? What. How much was that portion a consideration? Were you scared about getting clients? Were you like, I, I'm sure I'd assume that there was non competes happening and that sort of thing. So how did you get the courage, not just like, I can do this, but like, I technically, logistically can do this?
[00:35:45] Speaker A: Yes. So I had signed a really large project over Christmas break and it was the first time people were coming to me for design help, not the firm that I was at. And I think between that and what that vendor had said to me, I was like, oh my God, it's, it's time. But I felt financially comfortable because I knew I had this one big project there and ready to go once I had left a studio. So I'm actually going to tell you about the day that I gave notice. So it was January 7th and I was working from home that day and I called Jared to tell him I was leaving.
It was probably the most incredible conversation I've had with anyone. I cried for an hour. He was so gracious.
And that was in the morning. And by that afternoon it was the fire in LA and that project had burned down. So the project that I had left for no longer existed. And it was devastating on so many levels. I was so sad for my city. I was so sad for everyone that had lost their homes. I was so sad for my client. I still get emotional.
Thinking about was really hard. And I think on top of all of that, I just lost, you know, the financial stability that I thought I had.
So it was really tough for everyone. And I'm so lucky because I have my home. And so that's, you know, I'm not, not complaining, it's just a part of the journey. And so I obviously told Jaron upper management what had happened and they asked me to stay and I, I just felt like I still needed to bet on myself and make it work. And I knew I would figure it out.
And I ended up staying at the studio for nine more weeks, and we ended up helping each other because I needed to get my shit together and they needed to find someone to take over my role. And it was a beautiful time because there was no hard feelings. We were helping each other, you know, with my last stages at the studio, and they found an amazing person that I ended up training. And so that was a challenge, but I think it was just also another great opportunity and learning lesson along the way.
[00:38:11] Speaker B: Well, I'm so sorry that happened. I'm devastated for your client and everyone else who's affected. I do feel like I need to go text our friend Jer, who's what we're going to call him now, and be like, jeremiah Jer, we need to know the other side.
Like, how do you get in the head space of just being so happy for, you know, your right hand, the person who's, like, running this show, to be in such a great space, to just be so supportive? And I do fully believe that that is absolutely just who he is as a person, but I know that as a principal, that can be really scary and hard. So I'd love to talk about how challenging it can be to gracefully leave a studio and go elsewhere, or even more so, go on your own. What advice do you have to make this transition the most amicable and successful possible without burning any bridges? Because I've mostly heard it from the principal side that there's, like, fear about it, there's jealousy, there's worry that, you know, I just taught them everything, and now they're going to go use it somewhere else. But it sounds like you have really incredible relationships with all of these people that you've worked with over the years. How. How did you foster that to happen so gracefully?
[00:39:32] Speaker A: So. Good question. I.
Well, first of all, I think giving two weeks notice is nonsense. I think it is too short of a time. It's really hard to find good designers that you can trust and also have a good eye. And so I always gave each firm minimum, like, four to six weeks notice. Even when I called Jer on the 7th, before, you know, we knew what was going on at the fire, he had asked me, you know, when are you leaving? And I said, whenever. It works best for you. You know, like, I wasn't in a rush, and I never wanted to leave a team or a project or a client in a bad space. So I think just having open communication, I keep talking about communication with clients and with your team because it's so important, and I think just Having a good, honest conversation about what works best for both parties. And if it needs to be longer than two weeks, then, then I think it's a really amazing gift that you can give the studio because they've given you so much. Like, I always felt like it was the least I could do.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. Okay, let's fast forward to today and talk about your own studio. Can you talk to us about your current team structure? If there is a team, how many people are on your team? And if there aren't yet, what roles are you prioritizing first?
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Yes. So we're four months old, so we're still very young. But yes, I already have a team in place and that was very important for me to set up and recognize what I needed early on.
So my first hires, I hired an accountant that helps me with everything tax related and everything in California is very confusing and that's not my forte. So I hired an accountant, I hired a separate bookkeeper and I used studio designer. So he helps me with cleaning up everything, all the payments going in and out, making sure everything is balanced, understanding expenses, reimbursables, how financially we're doing. So we have a call at the end of every month just to recap. And I always have a list of questions ready. And I think understanding where your business is financially is really important because as designers, our minds don't work like that. Like we're creatives and you know, sometimes I don't understand all the money things. And so I think having that support that I can rely on and trust is really important.
And then I know this is probably controversial, but I hired a full time PR team and I know it. Sometimes young companies don't feel like they need to do that. And I agree, I think it depends on the principle. But for me, I just really wanted to get my name out there. I had work that I knew I was going to start photographing and I wanted a game plan of where we could place it.
And it was an investment for sure as such a just a young company, but I felt like even if I got one project from it, it would pay for itself. So I hired a PR team before I hired my design assistant. So I actually hired a part time design assistant last month and she's remote and I really just needed help with presentation, development, a little bit of sourcing, some research for materials and things like that.
And she's been amazing and wonderful and I am planning on hiring a local assistant in the fall.
We just got some new projects which are very exciting.
So that's My team right now, and obviously we're young and we're going to continue to grow. But going back to the team structure that I felt like made the most sense for me was having a senior, a junior and an assistant. And of course it's very project dependent. And I don't want to bring on a full team until I feel like the studio is financially ready. Because once I bring them on, I want to have them as long as I can.
So that is my game plan.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: Talk to me about the cadence. You just mentioned you're planning to hire someone locally this fall.
What makes you. How are you dictating, like when that feels good? It's like when you have a project kicking off, when you feel like, okay, we've saved up, you know, a salary of six months, so I feel like that's the time that I could do it. What, how, how are you timing that?
[00:43:38] Speaker A: A little bit of both. I have had a few smaller projects close out and I just photographed a big project last week. And so I wanted to make sure that I had at least three other full scale projects in the works and had that money flowing in in terms of markup and time billing to be able to afford a full time design assistant in California. And most of my projects, I would say 70% are in California and the rest are out of state. So having someone locally just to help with going to design center, doing errands, it would be really, really nice.
[00:44:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I bet that would be really nice, especially with California traffic. So thank you for the very smooth segue. After working at so many design studios, you've probably seen numerous pricing models which have. Well, again, keep this anonymous, but talk us through how you saw things priced as much as, you know, and maybe that's not totally disclosed to a, you know, junior designer or even a project manager.
And then also which you found most effective for your team as you are setting up these systems and processes in your own studio?
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Yes, every, every studio has priced very differently.
It's really fascinating understanding and knowing how they've worked. But some studios have marked up 50%, some studios have marked up 30, some have done markup on top of retail, which I thought was kind of crazy and a little bit unfair.
So for me, I think what makes the most sense for my studio and my clients is doing hourly, not fixed because there's just so many unknowns and scope always changes. And it's really hard for me to estimate hours and do and offer like a fixed price. And so whenever I send a contract, I do estimate and I get them a range and I of course say that it depends on scope and if things are added, if anything, you know, happens to timeline. But I think doing hourly and I charge a higher amount than my design assistant and keeping that pricing hierarchy is very important. And then I also charge a markup. The standard markup I feel like right now is 30%. I'm doing 20 because I feel like I shouldn't be doing the standard yet because I'm so young. But I think that will work the best for me and hopefully at some point I will increase my markup.
[00:46:04] Speaker B: Fascinating. So I know at the top of the show you mentioned that Ken Folke was at least on some projects doing flat fees.
How if you have any insights into how that studio or a studio like that, if they were interested in flat fee, gained enough internal data to be able to come up with a flat fee, that they were confident that, you know, this will be a profitable, profitable project even if, you know, something goes sideways.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: I would say the majority of theirs were fixed. And Ken does an incredible commercial work. And I feel like most commercial projects ask for fixed pricing.
So with Ken, I was on majority commercial boutique projects and one large residential. And I'm honestly not sure how, how that contract for the residential was worded because we didn't track our time.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: So even internally, interesting. That is not what we advise.
[00:47:09] Speaker A: So.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: But good to know.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: And that was a long time ago.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: That was a long, but good to know that, you know, even the best of the best are, you know, make it, making it work somehow. Okay.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: I will always, I will always track my time. I think just to understand who is spending their time, where and how and why is really important, is just for hiring in the future, understanding how projects are progressing. I mean just having that data and understanding internally is really important. And sometimes clients do ask, like, what are you spending time on? Like, why is this so high? I think it's really important to always.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Track time and even just to begin to collect that database of information to be able to give more accurate proposals, even if you are going with a flat rate model. So yes, thank you for sharing that. Everybody track your time. Okay, so having worked at all these 8,100 firms, one can assume you were working with high net worth clients.
And I'm wondering how you tailor your discovery and onboarding process to set expectations from day one with such kind of like high dollar amount clients.
Not that you should have any sort of a different system between, you know, a $100,000 project and a $10 million project. But I assume with the experience that you've had, you're probably going after similar type projects. And so how are you setting up that discovery and onboarding process to both appease them? Like you said that you learned at your very first role to make sure that the client's always right, but also protect yourself.
[00:48:53] Speaker A: Yes. So as much as a client is interviewing me, I'm also interviewing them during our intro call, which is usually about 45 minutes. And I also, I always do consultations free and I, I would rather talk to someone over the phone than over email. I just think it's more personal and I want to hear them speak really and just know more about them. But I, I've been in tough situations in, in the past where the principal did not manage client expectations and it put the team in a really hard spot in terms of timeline especially. And so I ask a lot of questions about project schedule, timeline, when their ideal move in date is, and what is your budget range. And I actually said no to a project for the first time ever last month because the timeline and the budget were so unrealistic. And I tried to have that honest conversation with her and kind of bring her back down to earth. And we just weren't seeing eye to eye. And I also just wasn't getting a good vibe. And if I don't immediately like sense a good energy from a client, I in my gut know that it probably is not going to be a good working relationship because these projects are minimum a year and you're going to be working with them a long time. But I think just setting expectations and correctly at the very beginning is so important and, you know, if hopefully I'll happily surprise them later on, you know, things are quicker and less expensive. But I always want to be open and upfront.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: What is one system or process that you've observed? Perhaps it's like a project management tool or an internal kickoff ritual that you learned that you absolutely took over and adapted for your own studio.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: A client questionnaire I Most firms I've been at have had some sort of intake form of like getting the client's information, general project info. And for me, I've created my own questionnaire that I send out and it's about four to five pages long.
I adjust some of the questions depending on the client and the location.
And I would say half of the questions are not even about style or design. It's more about getting to know them and their family because again, we have to understand their family and how they function in order to really Design something that makes sense for them as a family.
So I really want to get to know them if they're allergic to anything, if there's anything, like, historical, we should know about the family or them. And it's been very helpful because a lot of my new clients I really have no connection to, and I don't know them at all. And so this one form really helps me get to know them aesthetically and personally, and it kind of sends me in the direction that I know I'm going for the project.
[00:51:41] Speaker B: Do you ever get pushback from clients that they don't want to fill out a form? That is something that we've experienced with particularly higher network clients, they're like, no, I'm going to tell you these things and you can jot them down. Or like, I just don't have time to fill this out. How do you actually make sure you're getting that information?
[00:52:02] Speaker A: Yes. So typically with the client questionnaire, I also ask them to do a little homework and send me inspiration images of, like, anything they love or hate. And I would say 50 out of 50. I never get pictures back, and it's fine. And usually during my first presentation, I do a full concept design. And so we'll go through images and they'll point out things that they like or they hadn't seen before, things that they hate, because that's also really important to know. But I've actually never had a client so far not give me a form. It's taken some of them five weeks to send it. And if it takes that long, then I go ahead and start the presentation because I don't want the presentation to lag or take too long. And I want that first meeting to be enjoyable and not feel like it's taken so long in between our intro call. So if they don't fill it out, then it might be more time billing, because I need more of, like, an exploration of who are you, you know?
[00:52:54] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Of those five firms you worked at, who were the mentors that made the biggest impact on your leadership style, and how do you pay that forward now?
[00:53:06] Speaker A: I would say my first manager at Emily Summers had the biggest impact on me. I call him my first husband. He came to my wedding. We talk every day. He is the most creative person I will ever know. And he was just so caring and lovable and so creative and, like, free. And it was so amazing to work with him for three years because I just wanted a little bit of him to rub off on me. And he really took me under his Wing. And it was just, I can't even express how much I learned from him. And I hope to give that to my design assistants. Like, I want them to feel loved and I want them to feel a part of the project and the project is just as much theirs as it is mine. And I really want them to like, take ownership because I feel like if they have that sense of, oh, this is also my work as well, they'll want to do better and design better. And so I feel like I really learned that from, from him.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: I love that. For designers who are listening, who haven't either yet had the chance to work at a top tier firm, or don't necessarily plan to go work at another firm, what advice do you have for building credibility and refining their brand process without that hands on experience?
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Credibility to me means strong relationships in any industry and not only in terms of relationship with your client or your principal, but also with your vendors. Like, I mean, we're only as good as our vendors and it's their product that's placed and photographed and you have to have this immense trust with them. And it's really collaborative and working together. And if you design something but like functionally it won't work, I'm leaning on them to tell me that, you know, that table is not going to be sturdy, even though it's beautiful. So I think having credibility in terms of vendors and making sure that you're fun and easy to work with will have them wanting to work with you again. And I'm always finding new vendors on Instagram and in publications. And I love working with new artists and artisans because they're so good at what they do and they're truly professional at what they create. And so I think being credible is just having a good reputation.
[00:55:23] Speaker B: I want to preface this question with really emphasizing that I firmly to my core, believe that there's no one or right way of running a design studio. But I do hear a lot about imposter syndrome from designers who are running their own business without that big firm background. Or maybe it's not with a design degree. What path do you most recommend to those considering taking the leap into the design world? Let's say that they don't already have a degree. And now that you've worked at all of these studios, what would you say is like in your experience, the advice for before you start your own studio, do go work somewhere else or just start doing it. You will learn on the job. What do you think that path looks like for someone?
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Yes. So just to be Clear. I am an imposter. I don't feel like that feeling will ever go away. Sometimes I'm like, what am I doing? Even though I've worked at all of these studios. And so I feel like for someone who's jumping into this industry and switching careers, I think having the confidence in your own background, because having experience doesn't mean it has to be interior design experience. It can be other experience. And actually, one of the hires at jb, she didn't have as much design experience, but she was so mature and so professional, and I could tell that she really, really wanted to learn. And I just felt that. And she's one of my closest friends now, and I miss working with her. But I think just understanding that just because you don't have that AD100 experience, which not everyone needs, that you still are bringing your own type of knowledge to the table. I love that.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: Thanks, Coco. Okay, if you had to go back to day one at Emily Summers Design and give your younger self a single piece of entrepreneurial advice in this industry, what would it be?
[00:57:26] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I know this is so simple, but just enjoy it and enjoy the ride. I mean, I feel like designers are working at a million miles an hour and, you know, always trying to do the next thing and be the next thing. I think just enjoyed the process.
And this job and this work has saved me so many times. And I think especially in the past few years with all the craziness going on in the world, I'm constantly feeling overwhelmed and sad, and I feel so lucky that I can, like, dive into these beautiful worlds of creative freedom and, like, lose myself in that way and have that work to lean on. So for me, it's not a job. It's like, it's everything. And so I just. I would. I would just tell myself to, like, take every moment on site, every meeting, be in the moment, be present, and just have fun, because that's what Interiors is all about.
[00:58:27] Speaker B: Okay, I love to wrap up the show with a little sneak peek of what you might have in the pipeline. Whether it's an incredible project you just signed, or, I don't know, maybe you got a book deal, or maybe you and Jer are going off to Portofino soon. What can we look forward to for you?
[00:58:44] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I. I would love to join Nate and J anywhere in the world. I photographed a really exciting project last week. It is a historic mid century home with an amazing client that's become a very good friend. So look out for that to be published soon and I have a really great Austin project being published in print in the winter and I just signed yesterday A Home in Boston.
[00:59:08] Speaker B: Well, congratulations. That is so exciting. And next time you are in Austin, give me a call. I would love to get together in person.
Coco, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for your incredible wisdom and I just think you should be so proud of all of the hard work that you have put in over the years and I'm just so excited to watch you absolutely blow up it. Your trajectory is just phenomenal.
[00:59:33] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I still can't believe this podcast is happening and I am so grateful for you and I just want you to know like how you've changed my life and so many other young designers and your podcast gives such incredible insight and it's so invaluable. So thank you for just doing what you do well.
[00:59:51] Speaker B: Thank you. You're gonna make me cry at the end of the show. Well, we will talk soon. Thank you so much for joining and I hope we get to continue this conversation again with new developments very soon.
[01:00:01] Speaker C: For more in depth analysis of this interview including exclusive downloads, examples and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to a candicon conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
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