Rebuilding with Intention: Concierge Design, Architecture, and Fire Recovery with AAHA Studio

Anastasia Casey: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into The Interior Collective podcast episodes now on Patreon. Unlock access to in-depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions. Subscribe now at patreon.com/theinteriorcollective or linked in the show notes, join The Interior Collective Patreon community, and let's continue this conversation. If you've been listening to the interior collective for a while, you probably have heard all kinds of software recommendations and maybe even tried a few, but if your system still feels kind of all over the place, I totally get it. That's exactly why I wanted to share Materio. That's M-A-T-E-R-I-O. It's an all-in-one platform built just for interior designers from concepts to install and everything in between. You can try it for free at getmaterio.com and Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their first month. AC: Hello, Harper and Erin. I'm so excited to be chatting with you. Just so everyone knows, we owe them a huge thank you for being so graceful because I totally missed our first interview. It had been rescheduled and something had gotten miscommunicated for our automated technology. So the fact that you are here for a second time, thank you times 2 million. Harper Halprin: Of course, thank you for having us. AC: I'm really excited to chat with you guys through your really unique background, at least unique to us on the show, as well as through your partnership. And it's just so invaluable anytime we can talk to someone from an architecture perspective, because that continues to be one of the more, I don't want to say challenging, but tricky relationships to navigate as an interior designer. So I'm so grateful for your wisdom as we dive in. So Harper and Erin, can you take us back to those early days at USC, what sparked your shared vision of the studio and what it would eventually come? Aaron Leshtz: Sure. So we actually met on the first day of architecture school at USC. The way that the curriculum in architecture works is you have very little time for your general education classes. So most of the architecture studio tends to take all of those classes at the same times because your windows are very small. And so we had every class together that first semester. And so we just kind of naturally became friends and we had a pretty tight knit friend group. And so from the very beginning of our friendship, we were doing projects sitting next to each other. Right. We were in studio, even if we weren't in the same studio, you know, during the times that you'd be working on things, we'd be back in the dorm rooms working on projects together, we would be helping each other finish our projects, you know, once in a while a group project. So we naturally kind of grew up, so to speak, doing work with each other. And so I think it was kind of an inevitability that eventually, you know, we would see if that could turn a profit. AC: My sister is an architect and went to architecture school. And I remember her, people who were in her studio were like, that was her family. And it was a dream that they would get to work together someday. And they all went off, you know, and everybody did different things. But it's fun to see them now, like 10 years later coming back together to work together. So what was, what was the journey post USC? HH: Sure. So I guess it started before post USC. We actually spent a semester studying abroad together in Italy, in Como, Italy, which was an amazing, amazing experience. And I had always wanted to study abroad. I convinced Aaron that he also wanted to study abroad. So we ended up being able to go together, which was awesome. That just wet our pallets for travel and for being in other locations. And we spent the subsequent summer as well, traveling and working actually in London. And from that experience, we realized that we were both born and bred Southern California natives and we wanted to kind of experience other places. So we decided that we would actually end up in New York for post-graduation and being able to be by coastal interviewing wasn't really coming to fruition. So we kind of packed a bag and ended up camping out on a friend's floor for a month while we looked for jobs and ended up being in New York for a month and finally landed a few positions and started our life in New York. AL: Yeah, it was a challenging year to graduate school. It was 2008, though there were not a ton of jobs. And we ended up getting a job at the same studio for a little while doing really high-end interiors and high-end architecture for a firm called Studio Sulfield working under Bill Sulfield and Emma O'Neill. And they've done some fantastic projects, you know, including the entire kind of Tom Ford identity. They worked on the Gucci projects while Tom Ford was still there. Lots of high-end residential. Jackie O's old apartment that we worked on on Fifth Avenue that was being renovated. So really got our, our teeth on interiors and really what the interior informs the architecture. He's a trained architect. There was trained architects on staff, but the focus and the craft and the detailing was really what the emphasis was at that studio. And that was not what we expected to do out of school. You know, we had high ideas about working for OMA and doing big conceptual things and, you know, urbanism and all these things. But, you know, in 2008, you kind of took what you can get and it ended up being a huge blessing in disguise. Cause I think for both of us, definitely working in New York and for me in particular, working for Bill Sofield was a really formative experience in how I can see the world and architecture and interiors. HH: We spent five years in New York really learning the ins and outs of the area and just collaboration with artisans and all the different interior designers, architects, et cetera. And because we're from LA, we realized, okay, time to rip off the bandaid and either stay here or go home. And we had gotten married while we were in New York and we realized raising kids in the city was probably not the best idea for us. So we ended up moving back to Los Angeles. And right upon our move back, we were freelancing a little bit for other people and figuring out, you know, what we were going to do. We were taking all of our licensing exams so that we could get licensed in California. Yeah, yes, it was a process. I mean, and we did it very fast altogether so that we could just pound them out. AL: Yeah, I should say she did them very fast. I had to retake a few tests. She went through enough and then one by one, but I had to circle back a couple times. HH: You know, to each their own, to each their own. But so once we had finished the tests, we decided, okay, now we can get full-time jobs and really dive into our professional careers at Los Angeles. And from there, he was working for a few different people. And I ended up working for interior designer who was actually looking for a architectural partner to have in-house. And that was a really great opportunity for me because I could do what I had been doing in New York, which was very interiorist based, but in LA and start learning that process as well. So I was there for about a year and then decided that I was not going to be continuing to work for them. And fast forward a week after I had left and then I found out I was pregnant with our first daughter. And so I said, it's not for me to go get a new job somewhere temporarily. I'd rather just kind of wait and then do this later. And Aaron was like, okay, well, yeah, why, you know, if you're freelancing, that's awesome. Why didn't you put up a website so that people know what you can do? And I said, okay, cool. And so I did that. And then he's like, well, you got to post it somewhere because no one's going to know about it if you just create a website. And I said, okay. So I posted on Facebook because why not? And all of a sudden everyone was like, oh congrats. I didn't know you were starting a firm. And I said, whoops, neither did I, but here we go. It was that organic. It was always something that I had talked about and my dad has been a serial entrepreneur throughout his career. He's in the legal profession, but he had always said, go to school and then you have the opportunity to hang out your own shingle. And it was just something that stuck in my narrative of what I was going to do when I grew up, so to speak. I said, okay, well, here we go. And during my pregnancy with our daughter, I just kept freelancing and actually started kind of setting up projects that I would start post-maternity leave with her. And so in 2016, I hit the ground running and I just never really looked back. AC: That's amazing. And so Aaron, when did you jump on board? AL: Actually, eight years ago today was when I left my last job to join Harper, just coincidentally. So I was working for a few different people. I worked at a commercial firm in Clover City that was doing high end TI for tech companies and things like that. And then I moved to a residential firm in Santa Monica called Bellberg Architects. So I was working there and met some fantastic people and kind of on Fridays and nights and weekends was helping Harper with the projects that she had. And that was only sustainable for so long. So that lasted a couple of years. And then I eventually jumped ship and kind of went in with her full time. AC: Amazing. Well, happy anniversary, eight years is a long time. Okay, you describe your studio as concierge style. What does that actually look like in practice? And how does it differentiate your studio from a more traditional architecture or interiors firm? HH: I think the idea to us was just that when you are at a really nice hotel or you're going to a concierge, right, the idea is that you feel very taken care of. You can walk up and just ask anything and no matter what the request is, even if they don't know, they will find out for you. And that really was the impetus of what the idea of our studio wanted to be. So we definitely don't know everything and we don't pretend to know everything, but we wanna make sure our clients understand that we're here from them through thick and thin from start to finish. And that means that if they have a question that has nothing to do with architecture, if we don't know, we will hopefully help them find the people that do know and we'll be able to guide them through whatever process they're looking to do. AL: And will make their dinner reservations for them. HH: Yes but really it goes down to just really having that service mentality and being there to guide them through the process because it is a really life transforming process when they're going through whatever they're doing, whether it be, you know, high end residential and you're doing someone's custom home or whether you're doing, you know, retail and it's a business for them, whatever it is, it is very life transformative to them. And so to help them through that is, you know, hopefully a noble cause that they really feel is a huge benefit to them. AL: I think there's a mentality to that, traditionally, and I think this is changing, but traditionally, a client would go to an architecture firm and wait for their design to be handed down from the mountain. And like, OK, what am I going to get? This is exciting. These are the things I want. Then hand me the design. And for us, it's a lot more collaborative. Not to say that other people aren't collaborative, but it's much more of a joint exercise, I think, for how we treat our clients and how we treat the projects. You know, we don't traditionally like hand people a packet and be like, this is the house that we're presenting to you. You know, we really bring them into the process and walk into the model, talk to them about, you know, what we're thinking and what the changes are. Not that we don't have opinions or very strong design ideas, but we bring them into that process so it's more friendly. You know, it's less of a you know, we're over here and you're over there kind of a situation. It's really, we're in this together and this is what the process is like and let's go along this journey, you know, as a team. HH: And because we do both architecture and interiors, we talk them through the process holistically while we're in the architectural phase. We're not necessarily figuring out what the interiors are, but we have conversations that need to happen along the way so that both of those disciplines can be integrated from the beginning. AC: How do you feel like you're able to remain really solution driven in the design? You're super collaborative in your process. And for those who are wanting to integrate that more into their process, what are some of the ways that you feel like you're getting to really understand both the client's needs, the things that they are able to articulate to you, and maybe the things that they don't know to articulate to you, like the questions that they don't know about. How are you getting that information? AL: So we start every project with an intake survey. So we give, it's like a three page document that asks all these questions about the project. These are for larger projects mostly, but ask lots of questions about the project of the clients, but they are not prescriptive. It's not, tell me what kind of tile you like, tell me what kind of windows you want, tell me how many square feet you'd like. It's more about what's your daily routine. What do you each do for a living if it's a couple, you know, or a family? How old are your kids? What do you know? Do you like to cook? Do you like to entertain? Do you like, you know, the outdoors, right? HH: Are you a morning person? Are you a night person? AL: All of, yeah, exactly. All of these things that in combination with, you know, either a Pinterest board or inspiration images or some, you know, manila folder of magazine cutouts that someone's been saving for 20 years. Our job is to take that information and synthesize it right in and take what somebody is telling us that they want. But put that aside and try and see what they need. Right. Or what they what they actually want versus what they're telling us they want. And the thing that we go back to often is that we say like more square footages and better square footage And that's to say lots of people will come and say I need a 4500 square foot house. Okay, great. Why what is that? Why is that a magic number? Don't tell me you want 4500 square feet Tell me what you want to do with that 4500 square feet and let us figure out what that actually means as far as numbers go HH: And sometimes in LA proper, know, your property value is very important. So sometimes people say like, if I'm spending the money to rebuild or add or whatever you're doing, I need to max out my lot because otherwise it just doesn't pencil. There's no ROI on the actual process. And so that's an okay answer. That's not a bad answer. And then in that case, like, okay, if we are maxing out your lot and that allows you 4500 square feet. What are we doing with that 4,500 square feet, right? And that's really what we're talking to our clients about. And it is a very iterative process. And it is also about pushing back, like Erin was saying about what their preconceived notions of what they need or what they want are. And really not in a combative way, but really pushing their perception in the envelope of like, okay, that's what you thought. But what if we really approach this from a different way? What if we said, okay, you you like morning light, so let's have your room face this direction. You're like, well, oh interesting. I never thought of that. Like, okay, I always thought I wanted to be in the back of the lot instead of the front. But you're right. I do really like morning light. That makes sense for me. So really just coming with a very clear, open head and thought process and diving in and kind of setting yourself free from all these ideas is really the biggest part of our process. AC: I have a question that I personally struggle with when I'm talking to our clients just at IDCO Studio, honestly, just about branding and marketing, the concept of like, what do want this to look like at the end? And I feel like when someone, we're going to get into this later about the incredible work you guys are doing to help rebuild LA, but when someone is building a home or completely renovating or starting from scratch, it does feel like they could answer these intake questions in a very like aspirational way like, I'd love to have a home gym because like I would love to work out and if it was at home, I would do it or like I'd love this paint studio because I've always wanted to get into painting or even things that aren't necessarily that black and white. How do you help decipher between helping someone achieve their like dream aspirational life in this space that you're creating and also advising them on the spaces that they would actually most likely use. Is that something you come up against? AL: Absolutely. Yeah, HH: No, I think it comes down to the questions we ask are we've asked both what their current status is and what their future desired status is and really honing into like, what do you do now? And maybe what you want to do, but if what you want to do is nothing like what you do now. And we're in urban info lots most of the time in LA. So like there's not infinite amount of space. So when we're talking about a home gym, you're giving something else up or a paint studio. Like, no, that doesn't most likely happen unless your house is like 10,000 square feet, right? Or if you're an avid painter and that's like all you do, then maybe you're losing a bedroom to get a paint studio. Like that makes more sense for you. But we really do make sure that our projects are grounded in reality. And part of that is starting the one of the first conversations we have is what is your budget and what is your scope? And if your budget does not match your scope, that's OK. We're going to be very honest with you and say, are we following your budget or are we following your scope? Because those two don't see eye to eye. And you can say my budget's two million dollars. I'm like, that's a lot of money. That's great but then we can't build a 10,000 square foot house, right? Like we just have to make sure those two match because if we go into this process with things that don't work, then we're never gonna survive to the other end. As a relationship together or you with your project, it just won't get built. AL: And in addition to that, it's continuing to have that conversation throughout the process. It's, yeah. Hey, I want X, Y, Z. Yeah, definitely. But it will add to. Yes, you can definitely have that. We are happy to draw that in and provide that. But it's not my checkbook that's being opened up. So what that I just want to let you know, that's going to be something that, you know, might break your budget or you're going to have to find that trade off. So it's having that conversation continuously through the process because we have had that situation come up where people said, I have a very strict budget. It's, you know, whatever million. OK, great. And then through that process, but I want this. OK, but it's going to make the budget bigger. I want to see what it looks like. OK, great. OK, but I also want this thing. OK, we can draw it in, but it might make the budget bigger. And they start to get pricing back. And they're like, what in the world happened? And we're like, look, we have the receipts. You know, you have to take some accountability in this process as well. Right. You know, it's not the architect's job to make sure that you can afford what you're asking for. It's our job to tell you that what you're asking for, you might not be able to afford based on what you told us, right? HH: We’re creatives, we want to build up people's dreams, but unfortunately in this market, we often end up dashing people's dreams. And it's really, really sad situation to be in, but you have to just flip it on its head and be like, I would much rather you hear the truth from the beginning and then we can move past it and get into the fun part rather than doing the fun part and then get to the truth and then realize what we just did was a total waste of everyones time. AL: And there's a lot of people, contractors, architects, I'm sure interior designers as well, that will just tell people what they want to hear. They'll say, yeah, absolutely, we can do that. No problem. I can build this for you for $400 a foot. Oh yeah, definitely. We can do that. Because they want to get their foot in the door. And we have had clients come back to us after they say, hey, no thanks. Somebody else said they could give us what we wanted with their tail between their legs saying, OK, you were right. Can you help us now? AC: As you have been listening to this podcast, you have heard a wide range of software recommendations, tools for sourcing, invoicing, time tracking and beyond. But if you've tried piecing them all together, you've likely ended up with a system that can feel disjointed and you are not alone. The truth is it is not you. What you needed just didn't exist until now. Meet Materio. M-A-T-E-R-I-O. A powerful operating system built specifically for interior design firms. From the first mood board to the final installation, Materio brings every phase of your project into one streamlined intuitive platform. Procurement, client billing, task management, it's all connected and it actually makes sense. Design smarter, stress less. Try it for free at getmaterio.com. Interior collective listeners receive 50% off their first month. AC: Yeah, absolutely. But I really like what you said, Erin, about having the conversation of like, okay, so are we sticking to the budget or are we sticking to the scope list? Because a lot of times people just don't know how much things cost and they can say, you know, I have $2 million. That sounds like a lot of money. And then once they actually see what, yeah, and it is and once they see what $2 million can actually get them, then, you know, in the best case scenario, there is more money to be contribute, like they find more money to be able to increase that scope as they're looking for. So this is amazing and we've dug in so deep already, but I do want to step back so I don't forget to ask this question. Walk us through your team structure today and how your team's navigating architecture to interior design and back. Like how do you guys divide and conquer and who's supporting you? HH: Yeah, so there's nine of us total. We've grown really steadily in a very, you know, prescriptive manner. We never are just hiring to fill workload. We definitely want to make sure that we have runway to fill the people that we're hiring. And so on the architecture side, there's Erin and I, and then we have three, three people below us that are on the trained architects, they are not licensed, but they are trained. They all went to school for architecture proper. On the interior side, there's two people, full-time interior design trained. One is more on the furnishing and procurement side, and one is more on the architectural interiors and specification design side, so that they each have their own hats to hold. And then we have a, I'm sorry, I misspoke. We have four on the architecture side, not three supporting us. I can't even count. Oh boy. And then we have a full-time office manager, which was a really big deal for us because we decided to hire her. It's been almost two years in October now, and it was one of the best things we ever did. We were really nervous to jump in because it's like, oh my gosh, it's a non-billable person. What are we going to do? But it's such a big necessity for us because we both still want to practice architecture and interiors, we don't want to just do the business. And she massively holds a lot of hats in PR, HR, social, billing, like all of the things that we can help oversee, but we don't have to be the ones, you know, doing all of the legwork for it. AC: Okay, let's talk process. I'd love for you to break it down, start to finish. Assuming that someone is hiring you to design the physical shell in the architecture side, as well as all the way through to finishes and furnishings. How do you break up that design and deliverables phases? HH: So when we issue proposals, we'll issue the proposal for architecture and then we'll also issue a proposal for interior. So they're completely separate scopes of work and that allows us to have the flexibility that a client can hire us for just architecture or for both. It also allows a lot of transparency because when we used to clump the two together, I think people were confused as to what was the cost of each? And they could never compare apples to apples. And this allows them, nothing's ever apples to apples in this world, but more so at least. And so in our scope of work, we have, you know, traditional architectural phases, schematic design, design development, city permitting, construction documents, and that's all very transparent. Those are fixed fees. It allows people to really understand you know, what the process is and be very clear cut from the beginning. And then we have additional services that people can use us for, most often they do, but isn't necessarily part of that process. So that would be bidding and construction administration, helping them through the construction process. And then on the interior side, we have the same level of services. So we'll have schematic design, design development interiors, and then oftentimes we'll do construction document interiors depending on how robust the interior package needs to be and how much we did on the architecture side versus not. And the way that this works is that we'll start a process in architecture, we'll start in schematic design, we'll go through the design process with them, really let the architecture work its way out and the concept be apparent on paper. And then because we are an open studio and very collaborative after that process, the interiors team as well as Aaron and I, because we have a background in interiors as well, we'll go through it with more of a fine tooth comb and say like, okay, this room is really cool architecturally, but like furnishing this may be really complicated. Like what is the goal of this room? How are we actually making this work? And also like, okay, this would really want really interesting lighting or this would really want great mill work. So what if we adjust the floor plan slightly to accommodate that? And so that goes through that initial first process during schematic design. And then we keep going through all the architecture. And once we're in the city, usually during that process or when we start construction, that's really when we break into the interiors holistically because at that point, the budget is set and we'll know how robust the interiors can be for the client. We'll know if we can kind of go a little bit crazier in the world of finishes or if we need to tone it down because the architecture got very expensive. And so it allows us to be a little bit more flexible so we're not redoing the interiors package more than once. Unfortunately, it does compile it and compress it to a point that we hopefully aren't catching up in construction. We are giving ourselves the runway to still procure the architectural interior materials, but it is a little bit time sensitive at that point. We can't be super lackadaisical about our interiors package. We really have to make sure that we're flushing it out pretty quickly. AC: You just mentioned something so interesting that I've just been hearing from our own clients coming up more and more, just like in the ecosystem we're in that projects that they're doing full construction on, they're getting to the phase of actually doing furnishings and budget has either been used up because it had to get allocated to architecture and construction materials, or they're just at like a spend fatigue and whether it was part of you know, whether you're within that original spend agreement and budget that was agreed upon, they're just kind of at the end when they're like, I'm not even going to get as far as the furnishings and style, let alone styling. I find that the fact that you break up the two, two scopes in your proposal is really interesting because it does, it's just so smart from a business model that you can kind of protect yourselves because if the spend's going one way or the other, it is still within house. But I'm wondering if do you guys come up across that as well where people after they get to the bill, then suddenly the furnishings budget has been depleted or is looking less desirable for them? AL: Absolutely. And that is certainly frustrating on a design side, but on a human level, it's understandable. I think we are fortunate, I would say, in that our projects are not with astronomical budgets. They are not billionaires who can just spend and spend and spend. Most of our clients are young families, two working professionals. This is something, fire is notwithstanding, that they've been thinking about for a long time and have been planning for. But what they need to invest in now is sometimes the infrastructure, which is code for the architecture. And so once they get through that process, which is a very long process and can be grueling in some ways, and even having an architect or a designer who is really holding their hand and making sure that they are satisfied and happy through the process, it's a long time. These projects are not quick. Even if they don't have spending fatigue necessarily, they've been doing this for two to three years. They have decision fatigue. So like the last thing they want to do is like think about the fabric on the sofas. They're just like, we've been like going through tiles and going through this thing and this problem in construction and that issue and all of these different things that it does get hard for them to be like, OK, I'm going to do all this right now and also they're eager to move in. They're like, look, I have the sofa. I have a few things. I have my pieces. Let's just move it in and get in there, feel the space out, and then we can figure out what we need. So that's completely understandable from a client side. From a design side, it can be frustrating because you're like, I'd love to photograph the house. I want to get you in where it feels really turnkey, where there's an install day and a beautiful reveal and the bus moves out of the way and you go, ta-da. Realistically speaking, that very rarely happens unless you have a client with a huge kind of a budget and the means to do it like that. HH: Yeah, or they have a place that they're living that they don't have the heartburn of holding two mortgages. I think that's like the or a rental and a mortgage. Yeah, so I think often what what happens most of the time is. We'll do architecture, we'll do architectural interiors, we'll say we'll help furnish pieces as time progresses. Like we, for instance, will be photographing a project in a few, in two weeks that we finished three years ago or two years ago because it's taken them and us that long to fill the space and even still it's not fully filled but you know we'll be selective about how we're photographing it. AL: Or they don't want to spend money right now on doing the full landscape. So I'm not going to photograph a house with a dirt yard because they're just like, ran out of money right now and I need some time. I need to get my kids in. I need to unpack them. They need to start school. These are realities of life. You know, not everything can be how you want it from a design side. And that's part of the concierge style and the customer service idea. You know, and I think people forget that at the end of the day, Interior design, architecture, design in general is a customer service business. You know, we are serving a customer it is, we are not all, you know, Frank Gehry and Jean Nouvelle and, and, know, whomever else that can just kind of, you know, like I said beforehand, our designs down from, from on high, like you need to manage people. It's about people, you know, and the design oftentimes, and maybe rightfully so comes second to that part of the business. AC: I think that's a reality that a lot of designers, as we kind of come down from this COVID boom, are facing and really realizing and kind of like taking a bite of humble pie that like, yes, some people are going to need to postpone a project. They're going to need to take a pause. They're going to need to take a six month spend break. Can you guys talk to us a little bit about the strategy and how you communicate with a client to go back and shoot something that you finished three years ago? Because I'd love for people to hear that like, hey, that can be an option if you articulate and communicate it right with the client. AL: Yeah, I think first off, it's about maintaining that relationship, right? So again, it's about the people. And if you end a project, you know, on rushed terms or not great terms, or you haven't taken care of them in the way that, you know, they that particular client needed to be taken care of, it's going to be rough. It's a constant touch. If it's going to be a year or two, it's every few months. Hey, how's it going? How are the kids? It's some of that kind of sales nature of the business that's just relationship building that's, really important. HH: And also, I mean, we spend years with these people and once you wrap up a project in its like biggest form, you get a little bit of withdrawal when you, it's like seeing a friend that you see every day and then all of a sudden, like you don't talk to them. It's kind of a sad moment. You're like, no, I'm not ready to be done with this project. And so I think that it really also breaks down to when you're constantly checking in, you wanna see like, hey, how are you? It's been a while. You know, like Aaron said, like, how are your kids? What's going on? You know, how was your last trip? Are you doing anything fun for the summer? Just little touches or like also, hey, can we help you get anything? Are you still looking for that sofa? You know, is there something that we can like get you samples of or? AL: Hey, I was in the area. Can I stop by and say hi? Things like that, right? So I think that really the crux of it is the constant touch, you know, over a long period of time. And then as far as strategies of shooting something later, it's, hey, are you going on a vacation at all this summer? You know, are you going to be gone for a couple of days? You know, and if they are, that's great, because then they're not in the way. They don't have to stress about people being in their house in the same way. HH: And us tearing apart their house, moving all their prize possessions. AL: Putting it back together back together, but in order to do that You need to have built a relationship and the trust that someone says yeah, I'm going out of town for the long weekend here are the keys, you know you really that takes a lot of a lot of time to build that kind of relationship with somebody AC: Yeah, that's such an interesting idea. I was just going to ask you guys, what are the logistics? What do you offer to a client in order to be able to get into their house? But by having that level of, honestly, friendship, professional friendship, to ask them, especially over summer, are you guys traveling this summer? Could we get in? That's actually such a great way so that you aren't paying for their hotel, paying for their dog to be boarded, or all those other things that come into it. So I love that advice. Thank you so much. So a lot of our listeners are interior designers obviously who work with architects as outside collaborators. And a lot of times they're brought onto a project, know, ideally interior designers are always like, want to be involved from the very beginning, but a lot of times someone's already started with an architect before they start to reach out to the interior designer. What are some ways designers can adopt more of this integrated thinking in their own project approach, even if they're not under the same roof with their architect? HH: I think that it really goes down to having relationships with people on other side of the aisle, so to speak, right? Like we have great relationships with other interior designers and other architects. So we'll collaborate with those interior designers a lot where we don't do the interiors. We just are supporting them in their role. And vice versa, we have relationships with architects where we're only doing the interiors and they're doing the architecture. And the benefit of that collaboration is that we speak both languages, right? But that takes practice. And having conversations with architects and with interior designers on a consistent basis so that you understand from a macro level what the process is and what goes into it, then it's a much clear collaboration and less of like, I'm not here to step on your toes and more just, I'm curious and I'm here to help. Again, the service mentality of like, I want you to succeed and I want to help you in what you're doing. And so I think being able to have those relationships and also just checking in with those people all the time, hey, what products are you working on? How's it going? You know, then they'll be more willing to bring you into the process from the beginning instead of them working with clients and you just kind of coming in when it's your time to start your process. And also with the clients, educating them on the fact that it is beneficial for these two disciplines to overlap. So if you're talking to a client and they have an architect already, be like, hey, that's amazing. I'd love to meet your architect. Can we all go out to lunch together? Can we have a coffee? I think us being able to be on the same page from the beginning and them understand what you need from a furnishings perspective and me to understand what you want from an architectural perspective, those two things will come together and really it's just about being a team. So if you're showing the client that you can all be a team and you can all, you know, be nice in the sandbox and play together in a, in a productive way, I think that's the best way to be collaborative. AL: Yeah, I agree with everything Harper said. I'll also say that there's a tendency for architects to not want to get too involved on some of the interior things or not show too much of an interest and vice versa. Interior designers are like, oh like structures that's not my thing. You know, I don't care what's behind the walls. Just, you know, that's, that's not of interest to me. And from both directions, that's, I believe the wrong approach. I think that architects need to listen to outside interior designers and understand what their intentions are. You know, understand what kind of things that they want. What are they paying attention to when they walk into a space? What are they paying attention to when they are looking at plans and trying to plan? And vice versa. Interior designers, the more they know about the architectural process, about the building process, the construction process, the better that they're going to be on that side. And that was one of the lessons that Harper and I both learned working in New York is those two things really need to harmonize. From what kind of plumbing is in the wall? Well, that matters, right? From the simplest version of like, is it a deck-mounted faucet to a wall-mounted faucet? OK, well, there's different things we need to think about here then, right? Is this a wall-mounted toilet or a floor-mounted toilet? There's different things that we need to think about, not just to focus on plumbing. But you know, having architects understand the different requirements for drapery, for instance, or drapery tracks or roller shades and things like that is really important so that we can plan for those things and vice versa, having an interior designer who understands, okay, what can be changed? What can't be changed? And not just come in and be like, well, this is what I need. I need my six inch pocket. Okay, great. But there's structural framing up there that we can't cut into. So let's have those either have those conversations really early or let's work together and figure out how we can do that. But the better that these two parties understand the needs of the other, the more that Venn diagram is going to overlap and the better the project is going to be for the client. AC: I feel like this is a perfect opportunity for me to ask for like a Cliff Notes version. Those were amazing examples. No, no, no, no, I want more. I'm like, can you give us more examples of things that an interior designer could go to their architect and be like, I know I want to do this, this, and this. And these are things that you guys come up against frequently that like the earlier they can tell their architect, the smoother the process is because I think just like those examples you just gave from the plumbing to the drapery were amazing that maybe a newer designer doesn't realize that needs to go all the way to the architect. So it's not something the builder's trying to figure out, you know, come install. HH: Well, one of the biggest things that we do when we do our interiors packages, when we're detailing all of our millwork and really understanding what that looks like is windows start to shift very, very quickly and not like, I'm moving this window seven feet, but like even moving a window half an inch, a quarter of an inch to align with the sink because your cabinetry needs to be standard or whatever the reason may be that affects the structure because you may have a shear wall that needs certain nailing for five feet and if you don't have five feet then you got to redo the structural calculations. So just small minutiae that like make the interior so much better. If you walk into a space and you have a beautiful interior millwork package and the sink is amazing and the faucet is amazing and the window is not centered you're like what the heck that's horrible like that was such an easy thing to change, but if you didn't know to ask for it, then they can't just change it because they want to. That to me is probably one of the biggest ones, how windows align with what you're doing in the interiors, whether it be millwork or furnishings. Like okay, what are the codes? Every city has different codes for second floors, for instance, for window heights, sill heights. Some cities require 42 inches, some cities don't and how does that work with headboards and nightstands? And how does that work with, you know, benches and all these things like windows and interior design are the biggest kind of clash, not in a bad way, but just they are the thing that boil down to structure that often when you get too far into construction, when you're dry walls, some people are like, that's the perfect time for the interior designer to come in. I'm like, no, that's way too late, right? They can't then make the changes they need to make. AL: I think that having a clear understanding of the order of operations in construction is important. So like Harper saying, the drywall is complete, bring the interior designer in. Well, the interior designer may say, well, we actually wanted flush baseboards. OK, well, that seems simple enough. But that means in order to do flush baseboards, the baseboards are going in pre-drywall, or the reglet is going in pre-drywall to do that. So not only does that mean that has to go in first, but that also means that that's going to up the drywallers budgets because now they have to add a different trim at the bottom of their drywall, and they need to laser level the whole thing and hold that up. Right? So that little change of, do I have an applied base or a flush base, actually can significantly change the order that they do things on site. So little things like that. And again, having an understanding of that stuff, so the interior designer can first, you know, really early say, hey, I'm thinking about flush baseboards. Is that something that we can accommodate in the budget? Right versus coming in afterwards saying, well, can't they just cut the drywall out of all of this? Well, sure. If you pay the $15,000 change order. HH: If that's it. Or also another one is like doors, interior doors. Now, what are the details around the door? Is there a casing? Is it not cased? Right. Is it more of a kerf jam or in bathrooms? Are you doing a Schluter or like, oh my God, I cannot do a Schluter. This comes more into modern design, less than traditional design where you can hide things with coves and that type of stuff. But like if you're doing a modern interior. You have to make sure everything lines up exactly. And if you don't want a Schluter, OK, maybe you have to do double layer of drywall. And that detail matters. Or this is also another big one is we could do this all day oh my goodness. Showers, right? Having a curbless shower, that actually goes down to structural details. So that is something that needs to be discussed when you're doing foundations, not even like down the. So again, there's so many, but this is where having that really strong conversation between the architect and the interior designer from an earlier stage is super important. AC: Amazing. Thank you so much. I'm like, I know everybody's writing this down so privously. I would love to talk about your client experience and business philosophy. You have a fairly large team. I mean, you're a decent sized studio and I'm curious who's actually the point of contact when it comes to your clients. HH: It varies on what they're asking. And we have to train our clients to know who to come to when. And this is still very much a work in progress because although we are technically a bigger studio, I would say we still very much function as if we're like maybe four people. So every project has a project manager, whether that be on the architecture side or the interior side. And then if we're doing both, a project will have both an architectural project manager and an interior project manager. So that's where when we get into interior, sometimes the client gets confused on who they're supposed to talk to. So we kind of just say, copy everyone on every email and they'll all be in the know and then they can field questions as it is within their discipline. And it requires our architectural team to start understanding interior requirements and our interiors team to start understanding architectural requirements. So as a studio, we are educating each of our own disciplines to know when they're responsible for what and what conversations to have. Again, still very much a work in progress, but also teaching clients that we now have an email for billing. This was a really big one. So billing does not come from Aaron or me or the office manager, billing comes from its own email and when they reply, yes, we all see it. But it goes to a specific email so that they don't think when they're asking a question about billing that they're asking it directly to us. And that separates it in a really beneficial way where we can still have a very positive relationship with a client, if they're miffed about a bill or whatever it is, we can kind of keep it separate. But internally, everything is still kind of coming up the chain to either Aaron or I. So we're involved in, I don't know, at least 80% of every decision that happens in the studio. And that's a lot for us. So we're working on that and figuring out how to adjust and give people a, you know owners of their own projects as we grow. AC: I'm curious what like systems, softwares you guys are using, especially because you are on both sides, both disciplines. Do you guys use like a design software like studio or Materio or anything like that? And then also on the architecture side, is there like a project management system or are things spreadsheets like through and through so you can carry them between the studio? AL: It's mostly Post-it notes and red string. On the architecture side, we use ARCHICAD, which is a BIM software similar to Revit that some people might know. So everything that we do is in 3D, a save for really specific interior materials. So that, from a drawing perspective, that's what we use. The interiors team uses our AutoCAD and SketchUp, depending on what it is, but we're kind of slowly trying to bring them onto the dark side of ARCHICAD. Then as far as project management goes, we use monograph for project management and invoicing and timekeeping and things like that. We don't use any of the kind of traditional interior design softwares that part of the business isn't robust enough where we need to have its own system. So we use Dropbox for all of our, all of our documents. And then we've been using Dropbox paper for a long time, which is like Google sheets, but it's kind of within Dropbox which is really helpful because we can tag each other and it kind of integrates with all the files and things like that. There's still a few errant spreadsheets here and there, but we try and kind of do as much of it as we can in a few different softwares. HH: So we're integrated across disciplines. From procurement side, we're still a little old school. We're going more with Excel and that type of thing and project tracking. We use Dropbox paper for project tracking and that kind of dovetails in with procurement, so that is beneficial. AL: We don't do a lot of like a more traditional interior design practice would. We don't do a lot of, what am I thinking of? Like we don't take payments. HH: Oh got it. Yeah. when we're from one thing we've made a cognitive decision about is that we if we are procuring for clients, if we are purchasing for clients or specifying furniture or hardened materials, we're actually using their payment method. So we're not doing it as like a reimbursable expense so that it's not going through our books. The detriment of that is that we aren't marking up on those things, but the benefit of that is it keeps our books a little cleaner, a little bit more streamlined. And instead of making money on markups, we're making time and materials cost basically. AL: Accounts receivable. That's what I was thinking of. HH: Sorry. Yeah, because then then for monograph, it goes into QuickBooks, right? And then through QuickBooks, that's where we're doing all of our accounting. So, yeah, it's it's a lot of software, not to mention Slack. We use Slack all the time and Zoom because we are still hybrid. We're part in office, part at home. And so there are a lot of software tools that have to come in to play every day to make this office run. AC: Okay, as we get towards the end of the show, I want to make sure we get a good amount of time to talk about the incredibly heart-wrenching and inspiring work that you guys have been doing as you've been involved in over a dozen fire rebuilds so far, and I'm sure that there's even going to be more. Can you walk us through how those conversations began and how they've helped kind of reshape your process? Because working with someone who's rebuilding and going through the insurance claims and all of the horribly drudging steps and politics that they have to go through. How does that affect your design process and your ability to work with someone and really like the timelines and just all of it. HH: Yeah, so we, this is not a situation that we were anticipating, nor were any of the people that were involved for that matter, but we had already been working in the Palisades for a number of years when the fires happened. So I would say we've been doing Project in the Palisades for the last five years at this point. And that really gave us a sense of the community and the people that live there. And also there's a number of different communities within the Palisades. So there are projects that we had done in some of the more Eastern communities, closer to Bratwood, so Riviera and Huntington, and some of those areas didn't burn. And then the other projects that we had done on the more Western side of Huntington, Marcus Knolls and other spaces, those unfortunately did burn. And then some that we had done in the hills were right next to burn sites, but they didn't burn. We had kind of a gamut of project types and it really put us in the middle of the fires for sure when we were having live conversations with our clients in tears, us and them both included of like, these are our labors of love, these are their forever homes and are they still standing? And so the very early hours of the fire, both Tuesday, Wednesday, and even pre-Tuesday, where everyone was kind of looking down the barrel of the gun, we were having conversations of, you know, where is it, what's happening, you know, are you safe, are you evacuated? And from there, again, it goes back to our clients are our friends, right? We may not hang out with them every day, but we are very close to them. We are in constant communication with them. And these conversations were very emotional. so being there from the very beginning put us in situations where people were just scared and didn't know what to do. The minute they knew they lost their homes, they're looking for guidance. They've never been through this process. And so our clients would give our names to their neighbors and be like, can you please just talk to them? Can you help them understand what their next steps are and how they navigate this? Like, you know, they're not ready to make a decision, but they just need someone to talk to. And we had also had previous experience in the Woolsey fire, you know, back in 2018, we had done few rebuilds there and walked clients through the insurance process. So I had told our clients like, hey, if anyone has questions on insurance or how to talk to a public adjuster or any of that, like we're here, use us as a sounding board. And people took us up on that offer. And I would say the first, I don't know, two, three weeks of the fire, like I was on the phone or on zoom constantly to the point that like we actually, we have four kids and we sent them to my parents' house because I was like, I just need to be able to be accessible to people. And also the smoke was horrible, so it was better for them to be out of LA proper. But it gave us the opportunity to just really give whatever we could to people and help in whatever way we can. Again, service, it's all about the service. And it came from a very real place of wanting people to feel better. That then trickled down to a lot of Zoom conversations about what's the process from hiring standpoint, right? Like then people were like, okay, thank you for all of your help. But now if we want to hire you, what does that look like? And we had to discuss and then realize like, we're not going to be able to help all these people. There's just no way. And so we had conversations with everyone. We did not say like, if your price point is here, we won't talk to you. But as we said from the beginning, we're very honest. If someone's like, hey, I, you know, I'm not getting any insurance money. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, okay, that's great. We'll walk you through it, but we're not the best fit for you. Or, you know, hey, I, you know, just want an off the shelf design. Can you just sell me want something you've already done? Like that I can refer you to someone, but that's not a good fit for us either. We decided we weren't going to change our process. We really wanted to still walk people through the whole process, start to finish. And in the same way we would do it traditionally. Maybe it's a little faster, but it's faster from a permitting side, not from a design side. We did not want to rush the design component. So our process hasn't changed. We've just, you know changed how we're talking to people because their perspective of why they're doing this has changed. AC: Do you feel like there is a difference in designing for emotional recovery. Like, is there, I understand that you're talking to them differently about like what the process is and like how you're actually like holding their hand through it. But is there a difference in the design when someone's been through something so traumatic as to how they're looking at their home that they want to make different choices than they may have if they didn't have to live through that? AL: Absolutely. And it comes down to a sensitivity. Previously, or if you're building a house, and it's something that you've thought about for a long time, you come at it with a certain level of excitement. This is an anticipatory event where you really thought about this, you can't wait to dig in for a lot of people. In this particular instance, it's something they're doing out of dread, and they're doing out of grief in a way of the life that they lost, of the home that they lost, of the possessions and the community that they lost, this is still something that they need, right? So there's other pieces now of the conversation that came in of, that people are grappling with, that they may not say, but a lot of people are grappling with, do I want to be back in the Palisades, where they loved that community before, but right now there isn't a community that exists. Is that somewhere they want to live, right? And if they're coming to us to start this process, most of the time they've still they've kind of decided the yes that they do, but it's still a question that nags them in the back of their mind, right? So our job is to not only shepherd them through the process of rebuilding and to, you know, re the redesigning their home or reimagining it somehow, but trying to help them find the opportunities in rebuilding and not just, okay, I just want to put back what I had there before, right? In a non selfish way for us, you know, not like, well, you could do this and you could do that. And what if you made it this? No, it's more like, OK, we get that you have to do this now. And that frankly sucks. Excuse my language. But, you know, now that we're here, you know, and once you dig a little bit with people, you realize, oh they did want to change this little thing about their house or they always kind of want this thing. So if you can help them through that slowly and understand what pace they want to go at then you can help them find the opportunities, right? And you can help them find those gems within this horrible tragedy and this emotional cacophony that they're dealing with of insurance and mortgages and remediation and relocating their kids in their school and all these things and knowing that it's gonna be a long process. But within that process, there are things you can give them that they can latch onto that are like, anchors that can help pull them through this knowing like on the other end of this I might have something that I really really love. HH: Or they maybe lived in this house for a number of years and they were in a different lifestyle than they are now. So maybe they raised kids in these homes or they moved in pre-kids or they now are in a space they're aging in place and they need a different thing than they had before. And so we're trying to walk them through again, as Erin said, what are the opportunities for this and re-imagining what you have now in two years, but also what you're going to be doing 10, 20 years from now if you are staying. And I think that people, it's emotional and you have to be ready to ride that roller coaster with them. And it is difficult from a design perspective, especially because we are wanting to help people. are a bunch of empaths, right? And you do take on that burden to a certain extent but I think it really also moves us through because it allows us to feel like we're helping someone and we're really helping them navigate. Okay, we can get to the other side and you can create whatever life you wanna live down the road. AC: Guys, thank you so much for your time. This has been amazing. I've learned so much on this episode. Thank you more so for the incredible work that you're helping your community and for shipping your kids off to the grandparents so that you could fully devote yourselves to your clients and your neighbors and your community. I've really, really appreciated our conversation today and I can't wait to catch up with you guys again very soon. HH: Thank you so much for having us. It's been an absolute pleasure. AL: Thank you, really appreciate it. AC: Bye guys. HH: Bye. AC: For more in-depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples, and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or at patreon.com/theInteriorCollective. Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Kwin Made. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible. And the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible. Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is The Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living. AC: Are you running your design firm with a patchwork of tools? Materio brings it all into one intuitive system, finally. Try it free at getmaterio.com and get 50% off your first month as an Interior Collective listener. That's G-E-T-M-A-T-E-R-I-O.com.