Building a Product Brand Alongside an Interior Design Studio with DuVäl Reynolds

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:05] Speaker B: Reynolds is the founder and principal of Duval Design, a studio known for its layered, highly curated interiors. But alongside the studio, Duval has also created a completely separate brand, House of Duval, an e commerce destination for furniture, lighting, decor and objects that reflect his design perspective. In today's conversation, we're talking about what it looks like to build a product business as an interior designer. Duvall shares why he intentionally kept the studio and retail brand completely separate, how he approaches sourcing and developing products, and what it takes to run an e commerce company alongside a design firm. We also discussed licensing, including the debut of his new upholstery and case goods collection with Sheryl furniture brands at High Point Market, and of course, his wildly popular Curse of a Designer social media series. If you have ever thought about expanding beyond client work and building a product driven brand, this episode is a great place to start. [00:01:00] Speaker A: This season is presented by Laloy, makers [00:01:02] Speaker B: of rugs, pillows and wall art collections that are grounded in ethical production, innovative craft and meticulous design. Learn more about Loloy by visiting their [00:01:11] Speaker A: website loloirugs.com that's L O L O [00:01:14] Speaker B: I rugs.com and follow the Loire Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. Today's episode is sponsored by Design Assist, the staffing solution built for interior design firms style starting around 1250 an hour. It's professional production support with full time overhead. Scale smarter with designassist.com IDEGO that's design [00:01:34] Speaker A: with a Z. Hi Deval. Welcome to the show. It was so fun catching up with you for a few seconds before we hit record. I have so been looking forward to this conversation because I told you my team like geeks out about you. We're working on your website right now and like you are the talk of the office every day. Everybody is like what is Duvall doing? Did you hear what he said about this? Did you do this? He is just like the light of our life and we are. I'm so happy we get to share your magic with everybody listening. [00:02:09] Speaker C: Well, it is so mutual. I've told you before. Favorite podcaster. I am nervous today. I'm so excited to finally like sit down and chat with you and listen. Anything you have to ask. I'm ready. Let's do it. [00:02:21] Speaker A: All right, let's dive in then because I can't wait to talk all things licensing, all things like product development and kind of brand development because we are going to get into your viral Instagram series as well at the end of the show. But okay, so before we dive into house of Deval and the licensing side of things. Let's go ahead and knock out the designs to the incredible design studio side of things. Can you tell me a bit about how you began the design firm and how it has evolved to where it is today? [00:02:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking. So, yeah, so the we. I was a designer at a company called California Closets and I was with them for 12 years. So I actually also manage other parts of their company, HR and payroll, et cetera. And then I was with them and after they had an acquisition where the corporate office bought back the franchise, a private franchise, I just felt like I could do this on my own. And so during the time that I was there, I had gone back to school to get my degree in interior design. And. And then in September 2018, I was like, hey, I'll go on my own. And so we've been out for, what is that, eight and a half years now so far. So that's kind of how it started. It was a slow roll. I don't think we, like, we weren't out the gate, you know, and on the scene, but we've grown slowly, so it's been good. [00:03:33] Speaker A: That is such an interesting foundation. The fact that you were like running the business side of things before too, is an incredible education. But then also I super admire that you actually went back and got your interior design degree. [00:03:48] Speaker B: But that is so fascinating. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Also, I didn't realize that they franchise their offices, so. [00:03:53] Speaker C: They do. [00:03:53] Speaker A: Interesting. Yes. Okay. Okay. So now eight and a half years forward, you guys have gone through the COVID boom. You started before that, you had your feet wet before that craziness. We're a few years out of that now. [00:04:04] Speaker B: What does the team currently look like? [00:04:06] Speaker A: How many people are on the design side of the business today? [00:04:10] Speaker C: Yeah, so on the design business, we have about a total of eight of us. Six are full time. And then I have my wife who kind of acts as an advisor and she comes in on different parts of the business. And then we have our videographer photographer, who we consider a full time team member because of how much we work with them. So the. About eight of us. [00:04:27] Speaker A: Okay, amazing. And then do you have contractors, like in addition, outside of that or. Everything runs in house. [00:04:34] Speaker C: All of that runs in house. We have other contractors, I guess you say. I didn't even think about it like that. We have obviously an accounting team, a bookkeeping team of a couple people. We have. I have a virtual assistant. I have some drafters that I use separately, but that doesn't include, you Know, our contractors and team members that we pull in like that, and then we have assistants in different aspects of things I might need. But for the most part, I would just say, like, a core of eight of us. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's still a big team. That's a large team. Okay. I think so. When we've. Yeah, as you've listened to the show, I feel like eight plus contractors on top of that. That's a. That's. That's a large team to be managing. [00:05:07] Speaker C: In my head, I guess I still see myself as, like, a grassroots small team. And, like, I think I see myself as a small business. And so, for me, I'm just kind of like, gosh, there's so much more room to grow, but I'm not looking to grow. I'll say that. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Interesting. We'll get into that, too. With that team of eight, like, core people, what is your sweet spot workload? Like, how many projects are y' all managing at one time? [00:05:29] Speaker C: Yeah, if I can. If it's. If I get my druthers, it would be six to seven projects a year. That's all I'd really like to work on. Currently, I think we're at, like, 15 or 17, and it is too much like, we are overloaded at a very slow year last year, and then it just picked up at the end of last year. And so for some reason, we're just kind of drowning, and that's not been good for me. But six to seven or six to eight, I think I'm good with. [00:05:53] Speaker A: And is that six to eight new projects starting or carrying six to eight total? [00:05:58] Speaker C: I would love to just carry six to eight total. So, yeah, I would, because we do a lot of new builds, so from ground up, so some projects, of course, were on for a couple years, and so there's so many jobs that we haven't shown for the last couple years because we're still building them out. But I think that's my sweet spot of just a few good, solid, large projects. We're good to go. [00:06:16] Speaker A: Okay, Deval, can you also break down what your team structure of those eight people look like? Are there separate design teams? And then also, where do you fit into that? Like, how involved in design are you when you're managing? What I feel like is a sizable team? [00:06:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm happy to share this, too, because I feel like I don't. Maybe we run our firm a little differently than other designers. So with a total of eight of us, I am the only designer on the team, so I'm the design Lead. Every project that you see comes out is just me. And so the. I just brought on a design assistant. So that's two of us. I have a purchasing agent who does all of our handling of, you know, the accounts, orders, repairs, et cetera. We have a project coordinator who's the one who's on the job site, is taking a look at the projects, updating that. I have an ops coordinator who will actually handle onboarding the client, making sure the projects are going well. But he also oversees furniture and kind of like hospitality of the team. We have a CAD specialist. He's also our second architect who does all of our drawings. He does my autocad and then puts things in renderings for us. Then I have my wife who's kind of like our business advisor, and she also kind of oversees one of our other businesses and then our videographer and photographer. So everyone kind of has their own department, which is how I like it. And they have autonomy to make decisions for their line of expertise. [00:07:30] Speaker A: Wow, Wait, that is so fascinating. So you were designing everything. Okay. And you just recently brought on a design assistant for those listening who are like, wait, that is my business model. That is what I want to do. Can you talk to me about what you've decided? And it's probably a work in progress, but what you've decided to delegate to that design assistant, what type of things that they'll be working on. [00:07:50] Speaker C: That's great. Yeah. So this took a while to get to this because I think I just felt like I had to do everything. But one of the main things is our specification sheet. So when everything is already selected and we like put everything in our design file or our program, she knows exactly what I'm looking for. So all of those details needs to go into specification sheet so that we can calculate numbers, et cetera. She also does our. We get samples of everything we present to the client. So every tile, sample fabric, sample, finish, sample metal and wood. I make sure we have samples of everything as much as possible. So she has to get that. She labels everything, coordinates, and puts it on like where our. Where we collect our design projects and then from there. Yeah, she does a lot of sourcing that we need. [00:08:34] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. [00:08:35] Speaker C: And that's a full time job right now? That's a full time. Just those little small things. Oh, and also like updating our presentation files and. Sorry, let me go back. She also works in our 3D rendering program. So if I'm like trying to figure stuff out and I need to like see it in CAD or something, like that she can update all that while I'm working on something else. [00:08:54] Speaker A: Got it. And until she was hired and you said that was a recent hire, you were doing all that stuff? [00:09:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I was doing all of that stuff, actually, not everything. So let me be very clear. Last year, we had a slow year. Not that this was a part of the conversation, but we had a slow year. And so I did have a design. A design her on for a while, for the last year and a half. And then we were too slow to keep. Everybody unfortunately, still love her. It didn't work out. And then so she was helping in kind of the same capacity. She had a little bit more autonomy than that. But from that point till up to just recently. Yeah, it was just me doing it. It's too much. [00:09:28] Speaker A: It's too much. That's amazing. Okay, so in eight and a half years, at what point in that portion of your lifetime career did you begin thinking beyond client work and start considering product or retail as a part of the business model? [00:09:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I fell into this because what happens for us and how it started, it wasn't a matter of me wanting to be like a product designer. I wasn't like, oh, I have these great ideas. It actually started because I had a design assistant when I first started out. And as I was thinking to try to train her to make selections that I liked, I was like, oh, if I just put everything in one location, and then it might be easier for her to, like, at least initially source there. Right? Like, she could just pick from what I know I like so she can feel safe, and then the rest of the pieces that she can go elsewhere. And of course, you know, sometimes we use the same sofa silhouette. We might use the same chair. So easy stuff, right? So something that you could change with fabric and trim work or whatever. So the easiest way for me to do this, because we build websites, I was like, oh, I could build a backlink page and just have, like, everything listed. And then as I was doing that, it started categorizing itself. Like, oh, I have case goes here and here's some lamps I like. And then it became a little bit more complicated. And I was like, oh, at this point, it's basically a website. Like, I can turn this client facing. And that's kind of what happened. And so I wasn't thinking anything more than just like, oh, like she could use the site. She could source from it. If somebody else saw it by any reason, they could buy it as well. And that's how it kind of all started. Does that make sense? I don't know. [00:10:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:10:58] Speaker C: No. [00:10:58] Speaker A: You're blowing. No, it's not weird. It's genius. So you built essentially an internal catalog. [00:11:04] Speaker C: Yes. [00:11:04] Speaker A: For your team to shop from. And then it was like, well, why don't we sell this to other people too? [00:11:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:11] Speaker A: And you just happened to technically have built it as a website because you had experience doing so, and that's where you were cataloging everything. [00:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's funny because it was working and I was like, they would pull stuff and I'd be like, oh, I like that. Only to realize obviously I already like pre selected that I was like, yeah, these are. You're doing great. So that's kind of how it started. [00:11:31] Speaker A: Yeah. But I mean, that's such a great resource for your team to have like this existing list of like, these are kind of our starting point. Go tos at the very least to reference and be like, find something similar to this. If not exactly this. [00:11:44] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:11:45] Speaker A: So what I think is really interesting about House of Duval is that you have chosen to have it exist as a completely separate brand from your design studio. What made that a conscious decision? Because when we are working on sites, a lot of people come to us and they're like, we're a design studio. We have an e commerce site. We want them both to live on Shopify. And I want to be able to toggle between the two. But I think it's really interesting as well because a lot of people end up deciding they want to sell the e commerce side or maybe they want to sell the design studio side of something sometimes. And when everything's so integrated, that can be, you know, just another step that you have to separate them out. So why did you decide to keep it so separate? [00:12:25] Speaker C: You hit it on the head. Like, I thought, what if I could sell it one day? If I could sell it, like, what could I do with it? And so that honestly was probably the whole. The whole reason that I did do it that way. And so I'll start with that. Like, I thought to myself, okay, if I could separate the brand, keep my design business, keep let House of Duvall run on its own, that was one thing. But then as we started to collect more product onto the site, I noticed that vendors who we wanted to partner with were talking to us differently. So they, they were like, yeah, if you have it on your site, they don't really want to use you or they don't want to partner with you. And then if you had it as a separate business, they were a little bit more interested. And so that even just kind of kicked it over the, you know, that just kind of took it to the next level of, oh, let's turn this into a real separate business. And then we went from there. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, kind slightly off topic or you didn't know I was going to ask you this. When are there advantages to your clients, your design clients that they receive, or business advantages for you internally to have this separate E commerce? Like, does it help you get, you know, stockist pricing on things that then you're putting into projects? Like, what are some of the advantages to getting there? [00:13:38] Speaker C: I don't think that we had any stocking differences just because we're on an E comm that I noticed that that usually has to be a retail store, so we have a showroom, but it's not quite a retail. So that hasn't been really the benefit. One of the benefits that was kind of surprising, I didn't really think about at the time is especially when we were doing virtual design. So every so often we'll open up our studio for virtual design. When we do that, we will then source from our site to select and it definitely shows up as a product brand or whatever. And then the clients can see that it's still the shoppable Duval design look or they feel like it's still a part of the process. So I think that's been good. And then as far as it being something that I felt like was so different for our brand and our design company, I don't know, unless somebody brings it up, I don't think I have anything quite on top of my head, you know? [00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you feel like what you have created at House of Duval and those selections are a mirror image, direct reflection of what you spec for projects, or do you feel like they are serving different clients? [00:14:45] Speaker C: It was serving different. I don't know if it was different clients, but it was serving different purposes for me. So for me, I know that we don't have an esthetic. I don't really feel like I have a brand aesthetic. Like some people you can just clock when you see their work, which I love. And so I don't think that we're there yet. And I'm not sure if I want to get there. I like the idea of it just being whatever we want to do and whatever the clients are asking. And so when we started making House of Duval and I started selecting, I was being very intentional to only select what I like, and that's how that look came up. And Even for the brand as we were building it out, it came from what do I personally like? So I wasn't thinking about the client at the time. And so I still think that that's something we're working on. Just kind of like navigating, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it'll change. It'll change. Once Once our line is out and everything is like we're pulling it together, we'll have a very distinct esthetic. It will be very, very clear that that's what we're doing now at this stage. Were not quite there. [00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah. How did you approach building the visual identity and voice? Because I know you said that, like, you have pulled it all from, like, what you like, but. But was it just like anything? Because to me, it feels so aligned with your design perspective while still being independent from your studio. [00:16:02] Speaker C: Hey, I'll take that. I think that's good. I think, you know, all designers, we have a filter, and it probably have a filter of just kind of like, alignment, color palette, and, like, clean lines and font details. So it probably is some through line that I probably don't even notice because it's just from my lens. But one of the things I know that I wanted to do, I wanted to make sure it felt like comparable and competitive to retail stores that are out there. Crate Barrel, Pottery Barn, you know, our House, Ethan Allen. I wanted the people who shop at those sites to come to our site and navigate it the exact same way. I did not want it to feel like you have to understand the site to be able to, like, you know, manipulate it and the interface. I want it to be so intuitive that if someone saw our stuff from another brand, that they felt like, oh, this was at least competitive. That was a huge driving force into why it looks the way it does. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Was there ever a moment where you questioned whether running two parallel brands was going to be too complicated? [00:17:02] Speaker C: Every single moment of my life, Even in this podcast, yes. It's always tricky. I think it's one of those things, like, as an entrepreneur, which I think I'm an entrepreneur first, and then I'm a designer, where I think a lot of people may feel like they're a designer and then they had to run a business. I feel like an entrepreneur, and I feel like I want to create and I want to do, and I love business. And so I think I didn't know how much it takes. I don't think I really understood, like, how much commitment you have to have to one and the other. And yes, I question it all the Time. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Yes. You are a visionary. You're a big picture person. [00:17:37] Speaker C: I'm a big picture person. [00:17:39] Speaker A: But you obviously can absolutely execute the details. You were telling me before we hit record that you have never hired pr. You do all your own marketing, you did your own website until now. [00:17:48] Speaker B: We get to work with you now. [00:17:49] Speaker C: Yeah. I did not anyone touch this site and I have waited a couple years cause I was like, I know I gotta get my money right, I gotta get my attitude right. I gotta be ready. I have let no one touch this until you guys. Yes. [00:18:03] Speaker A: And so I just think your ability to also execute the details is I think something that also makes you uniquely impressive. Like you are this visionary person, but you will do all the steps in between to get it in line. So, okay, let's talk about the E commerce side of things. Because E Commerce is to all of our existing E commerce clients, we love you, but I think everybody who has launched an E commerce business knows that it is very complicated and what feels like a shiny gold pillar and like the next step for them. I spend a lot of my job talking people out of launching Ecom because there is a lot of logistics around it. So it's very different from running a service based design studio. What are some of the biggest operational differences that you had to learn quickly? [00:18:54] Speaker C: Gosh, it was all of it. I think I didn't understand how much content you have to put into the site for you to have everything just be again intuitive, like understanding like your disclaimers and your timelines and all the details for the product itself and sizing because that's what people want to know. You can't just have a pretty photo. Like you actually have to sell the product sight unseen. That was one thing. And not really understanding like the back end using CSVs to be able to just like actually do it all at one stroke versus one product at a time. That was how I was initially doing it. I have to give a huge shout out to Katie, who's on our team, who's our purchasing agent and our product specialist. Like without her this would not be possible. Hands down, no questions asked. She is the best thing for that business and she knows it. And if she doesn't know it, Katie, you're a rockstar. I think that was one of the first things I didn't really understand is like how much time it takes to upload all the information and then from there the constant shifting of is it in stock? Is it not in stock? When people ask you that. And then if somebody makes a sale on there and it's not in stock, then you're having to return money, money. So you think you're going to lose money just because they returned it. And it's a, it's a lot. And I think the other thing was logistics, you know, with the design team and we're based in the D.C. metro area. So in Fairfax I have my receivers. So when there is a company that doesn't offer to drop ship a product, I have my receivers that I know what their costs are. I know how to add that into the cost of a product itself, into the goods. But when you have someone from Utah, I have someone from Louisiana, we have some from Washington state asking for a product that does not drop ship. I mean it's a logistical nightmare in some cases to be able to figure out who's going to pick it up, who do we trust, how fast will they get it to them? And did I mark this up enough to be able to cover the cost of a shipping, A shipping team member that I've never worked with before. It's a lot. [00:20:42] Speaker A: Okay, so the logistics, this is the part that I always cause people to pause on because I'm like do you have a plan for the fact that your receivers in D.C. and Sally in Alaska just bought this sofa? What is the plan? Okay, so when someone is transacting on housewift vault now and they're buying something that is not drop shipped, they purchase something at the retail price. And is there like some sort of disclaimer that like we will contact you with the exact shipping quote. How, how are you handling that logistically from someone ready to purchase? [00:21:15] Speaker C: That's a great question. One is that you could only do but so much on your IMAP costs, right? Like you have to have a certain number and like you try to like whatever. And so we try not to exceed that. And so to competitive to all these other places where they're saying they're going to ship for free for something over a thousand dollars. Typically it's those big product items that are going to go to receiver first. Right. And so I can't really add in like additional fees to stay competitive. What we did do is that when we started doing bigger products we would get an average cost of where things were located based on what the shipping the shipper is. So let's say we use a furniture brand if they're in North Carolina. We had mapped out like how much would it cost to go to Massachusetts, how much would it cost to go to Montana, Washington state, all of these places and then we averaged out a cost to make sure. All right, in this line, we're going to have to try to, you know, sell enough products for us to get our money back for something that we lost it in one product, and maybe we gained it in another, if that makes any sense. [00:22:06] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. So then for. For each piece you are providing already, someone at checkout knows what their shipping is going to be. [00:22:15] Speaker C: Not necessarily, because it can still be free shipping. I think on the back end, we had to understand, like, yeah, I'm not getting. Hey, Duvall, if we want to sell this product, you're not getting your percent margin or whatever the margins we have in it. You're going to get 20. Is that worth us putting this on our. Yeah. On our site? [00:22:30] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. That is so brilliant. Okay, so you took the average of. Once you price that all out and you already had your receiver that you normally function with. [00:22:39] Speaker C: Can I add another detail? I don't know if this matters or not, but another detail is that we also try to partner with brands that. Excuse me. We try to partner with brands that we felt like had a national presence, too. So if someone did hit me up from Idaho, my furniture vendor has probably worked with someone in Idaho and said they probably have. Right. They have design teams there that we can reach out to to be like, hey, who's the receiver you trust? So we didn't want to work with people that we just felt like we had to figure everything out. We wanted to use their partners and, yeah, kind of work from there. [00:23:11] Speaker A: Have you. I mean, I don't know who wouldn't want to share all of their information with you because, like, you're the most fun person ever. But have you come up against any challenges when you do reach out to people of being like, are you willing to share your receiver? And they're. [00:23:25] Speaker C: No. Oh, yeah. Well, if it's the furniture brand. No, we never have a problem like that because the furniture brand wants to sell their product. They want to get it out. Right. But yeah, you have a couple people that act like, oh, I'm not too sure. Let me check, or something like that. But I don't even know if I let that stay in my head. I'm just kind of like, cool, got it. Move on. [00:23:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. You're looking for the answer. Okay. And then just to clarify, you're talking about when someone from Idaho hits you up and you want to. So are people reaching out to you to request a quote before purchasing, or do you mean someone has already transacted and now you're like, how do we make it happen? [00:24:00] Speaker C: Girl? They've already transacted. We're like, how do we make this happen? Yes. Okay, there's very few, there's very few that will have an order on that. You know, it'll be a custom or something like that. And so maybe that's when we can do a quote, a proper quote. But yeah, it's literally fly by the pants, by the seat of our pants on some of these orders. Yes. [00:24:17] Speaker D: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective Podcast episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions. Subscribe [email protected] theinterior collective or linked in the show Notes Join the Interior Collective Patreon community and let's continue this conversation. [00:25:01] Speaker B: This spring, Laloi is headed back to [00:25:03] Speaker A: High Point Market with so many new [00:25:05] Speaker B: introductions, including a debut rug collection that's made with a groundbreaking new construction, along with a beautiful spring season from Rifle Paper Company. They're also hosting exclusive High Point events in their showroom, including one with designer Amber Lewis. [00:25:18] Speaker A: If you haven't already, book your High [00:25:20] Speaker B: point [email protected] l o l o I rugs.com and make sure to follow Laloi rugs on Instagram and TikTok. This episode is brought to you by Design Assist. If your firm is busy but your team is maxed out, Design Assist connects you with highly trained junior designers who support your projects behind the the scenes, from CAD and renderings to sourcing and procurement. Founded by Reed Humphrey of Alder and Tweed Design, this model was built to help firms grow without adding massive payroll. With professional design support averaging just $12.50 an hour, you can take on more projects and increase profitability without sacrificing quality. Ready to scale Smarter? Go to DesignAssist.com IDCO that's Design Assist with a Z. [00:26:03] Speaker A: Can we talk about the systems? Or maybe it is symptoms or infrastructure that you have built behind the scenes to make the E Comm side of things actually function day to day. You mentioned your product specialist and procurement. Is that. Did you say her name was Katie? Did I make that up? Katie. Okay, Katie, is Katie handling it for the E. Comm and also for the design, like, things kind of overlap a little bit. [00:26:29] Speaker C: Yeah, they overlap because she's the one who knows everything about everybody that we do. So if we're ordering something from Forehands to RO to Sheryl, anybody that we're working with, Katie knows the process. She knows general cost for product shipping and stuff. And I think that was also a reason why we wanted to separate that particular role. I didn't want my designer on a team also doing procurement, and then it just be really a lot of hassle. I wanted one specialist. I want one team member who's the expert at doing this. And so when we started doing the E. Comm, it was just so seamless that Katie was just making it work. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Amazing. Okay. And I know everyone listening wants to know. And actually this was like a hot topic in my group text last night as one of my girlfriends has to let her procurement specialist go. Where did you find Katie? What was the job description? Like, how did you find someone with either the right experience or train them to get to that point? [00:27:24] Speaker C: You are not going to like this answer because it did not. We did not look for Katie. This is the problem. It was so weird. I think she's been now with us for like four years. I think Katie's just. She's coming up on four years and four years ago, for some reason, we had this random, like, on indeed. Like, our site got hacked and somebody was acting like us. And so they were putting. Yeah, they were putting out this post and they were saying that we were hiring and like, they did all these things and they were collecting people's information, their credit card, Social Security. It was crazy. They were saying they hired and it was all. Everything was listed under my site. I know this is a stupid story, but anyway, so there was this girl who applied to the job, and it was Katie. And she was like, hey, I'm applying to this, but something seems off. And so she told me and she said, because our website is duvallrentals.com and she said the email address says recruiteruvallerentals.com and she's like, if you don't notice it, it just seemed off. So anyways, long story short, and she's [00:28:19] Speaker A: like, this is the girl I need who notices that. [00:28:21] Speaker C: Because she pointed it out. I was thinking, wow, like, that was really, like, good that she caught that and the way she communicated so that we had like a little bit of back and forth and I was just like, dang. Like, I really like how you communicate. I don't have A job opening, but. And she was like, really nice. She was like, man, it would be really cool to work with you guys, whatever. So anyway, so this is at the time when House of Duvall was starting. And so I knew that she had a background in like analytics, but documentation. And she had already worked in kind of like filing and online stuff. And so Katie is in North Carolina and we're in Fairfax, Virginia. So she's my only, my first and my only full time remote position. But that's how much I just liked her. And then she has helped me build House of Duvall and our firm. She's been amazing. [00:29:00] Speaker B: What a kismet story it was. [00:29:02] Speaker C: And I feel like I wish I could tell somebody how to do that, but it was just kind of like, I guess you just need to get hacked and like whoever writes to you, [00:29:08] Speaker A: guess who you hire, open up your. Indeed. I guess to people. Oh my gosh. Just steal some credit card numbers and it'll work out. [00:29:13] Speaker C: Steal a credit card out, you'll be fine. [00:29:16] Speaker A: Do you feel like your design clients tend to discover house to devolve through your design studio, or do you feel like the audiences are largely independent? [00:29:27] Speaker C: It's almost always Instagram or a referral. Like. Well, they'll tell you that. Yeah, I get a lot of referrals. We have a lot of repeat business. Thank God we have that. Outside of that, it's Instagram. It's not through House of Duval. And. And I don't think I'm looking for clients through House of Duvall. I don't think I'm looking for that. Yeah, right. [00:29:43] Speaker A: It is a different market. [00:29:45] Speaker C: It's a different market. And if someone is looking to buy them their things on their own. You're not really my client. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. You're not my client. Okay. For House of Duval, where do you feel like most of your clients are coming from in that aspect? [00:29:59] Speaker C: I don't. Oh, that's a great question. I don't know. It's always. I mean, we don't get like crazy huge orders on that. Right. Like, you just get orders here and there and like how it works or whatever. But I don't know if I have a typical client. Yeah, I don't think I have a typical client that comes onto that at this point. That's a great question though. I'll look. [00:30:19] Speaker A: We'll dig in. Okay, so let's talk licensing and industry partners, because you are stepping deeper into product licensing with your new upholstery and case goods collection. Can you talk to us about what is debuting at High Point Market, who you're working with, and how did that opportunity come up? [00:30:37] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh. Such a big question. So this is with Sheryl Furniture Brands, and I am going to start smiling because I'm just so grateful. I'm so grateful. It's just. Just the craziest thing that ever happened to us. I don't even know how to start that. Like, it's just. Okay, so did we have a furniture launch? I think they had put something out that it was like, 28 pieces, but I really think it's like 32 or 33. Maybe like 33 SKUs, let's say. Like, that. Okay, it's more skus than that. And so, yeah, we're doing upholstery and case goods. The way that this happened was, again, one of those kismet kind of things. They had been kind of wooing us for, like, a couple years, and we just kept saying no. We were just kind of like, no, I don't think. I don't think this, you know, because I'm not a big enough designer to. To be like, oh, yeah, they want me. Like, that wasn't in my head. And they kept kind of, like, bringing it up. And then shout out to Sydney, who's down, the vp, I think, of marketing. She had put her name in there in the hat to do a panel for them. And I think this is, like, in 2022. And so we did a panel, and I think they were able to see, like, hey, like, my personality and, well, personalities, as you'll keep finding out. And so I think they just kind of kept watching us. And then they watched us for a few seasons. They would make a little comments here and there. And then we got asked to do Kips Bay in the fall of 2023. We got an email. We were like, yeah, we'll take it. Obviously, you don't say no to Kips Bay. And then we found out that Lillian August, who is a brand under Sheryl, they were giving us the product for free. So then we had a little opportunity to kind of, like, work directly with Cheryl. Now, granted, we had already been working with them. Like, we had already purchased products from them, but we also weren't, like, their biggest buyer. Like, we weren't, like, making that many sales. And so then they asked us again, like, in 20, spring of 2024. They kept making mention, like, hey, would you be interested? Would you consider it? And then finally, at the fall of 2024, I was just like, yo, y' all keep Saying stuff like, are y' all really serious? And if you're really serious, let's have a conversation. And that's kind of how it started. So I had them come to our office here in Fairfax and we had like a four and a half hour meeting. We presented and that's what kicked it off. So it's been a couple years. I don't. I think it may seem like it just kind of came out of nowhere, but it's been a while. [00:32:43] Speaker A: No, they recording you for a long time. [00:32:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:32:46] Speaker A: Can we talk about that four and a half hour meeting? I'd love for designers to understand how those licensing relationships like really begin. And you, you know, you're talking to them and you're like, hey, if you're really serious, let's have a conversation. And then you end up in a four and a half meet out. Four and a half hour meeting. And you said you presented to them. [00:33:06] Speaker C: Them. [00:33:07] Speaker A: What happened? It feels like we're skipping a step. So between saying we want to have a conversation to we're in a meeting, presenting. What exactly are you presenting? Like you already were like, hey, here's some drawings. I came up with ideas. Or you're presenting and selling yourself as like, let's work together. [00:33:23] Speaker C: Got it. I'm always selling myself, never for enough money. So we're going to start with that. And so secondly, no, I had to figure it out. I don't. It was one of those things like, like I had not drawn out product. I had not kind of processed this out. I didn't really know. I don't know if I knew that the conversation was you. We will do a collection with you. It could have been a capsule collection. It could have been like, hey, like it's anything. And I think I thought, and maybe like my first thoughts were like, anybody? I think if a brand comes to you, you kind of think to yourselves, like, oh, they'll present 10 items. I might make changes to it. It'll be two inches here, one inch there, and then I'll put a different fabric on it and call it my. I think I kind of thought it was that and it wasn't that. So. Because I didn't know what the, the meeting was really going to be about. And for those who know me well, I over plan I over. I will come out looking like I never tried. I'm trying to make it super easy, but it is all thought out. So I had a 44 page presentation. I had drawings, I had fabric, I had things that I liked about their firm Excuse me. Their brand. I looked at. I talked about what they currently are offering, where I think I fit into their market. I. Where I fit into the market as a whole. I talked about color palettes, what fabric brands I was interested in. I thought through everything that I thought they could ask me, like, what's your direction for this? I created language around it, a name for it, a title for it. I had everything that they. I thought that they would ask me. I think I came ready to talk about, if that makes sense. [00:34:54] Speaker A: Yes, that is very clear. And they're looking at you like Duvall. You are a golden child. This is the easiest yes ever. Like, it's already done. [00:35:02] Speaker C: They were. Yeah, he. I think he was really happy. And so this was the VP of sales at the time, Mark. Tom still is. Or Tom is over everything, as far as I know. Yeah. I think he just could see that we were very clear. But I will say, and I know this. I don't know how this sounds, but I didn't know that I had a clear perspective until I was forced. Between that meeting in their showroom and to that meeting, to our showroom. I had to come together and be like, oh, let me give a point of view. And I didn't have one, but I noticed that as I was working on it, and I'm like, oh, this is what I want to see. I don't care about what other people feel. I don't care about. I don't have a client. What would I want? And I didn't know how fast it would come together. And thankfully, it came together very quickly. [00:35:49] Speaker A: How long was that timeline in between the showroom meeting in your office meeting? [00:35:54] Speaker C: So it was October. Fall. The fall. October. And then he came in December. So I probably had a month and a half at best. Yeah, it was crazy. I was. I was. I was panicked. And I had never done anything like this. And imagine I wasn't a person who I drew. I draw. I don't draw my projects. Right. Like, we do AutoCAD or we do renderings. I'm not sitting there hand sketching. Can I hand sketch? Yes. Like a child. But I was like, yo, I'm gonna do what I can do. And. And I just think I was more thinking about his perspective of me. What is he seeing? Not how do I feel. What does he see and what does he need to see in order for him to understand I can be a great partner? And so. Yeah, but that was my first of three meetings. So just start with that first of [00:36:44] Speaker A: three meetings before you Got like an official yes. Okay, so in this four and a half hour meeting with your 44 page presentation. [00:36:53] Speaker C: Yes. [00:36:54] Speaker A: Four is your magic number, apparently. [00:36:56] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. [00:36:58] Speaker A: What were you asking for things? So at this point, you didn't know if they wanted a capsule collection? If you were just tweaking stuff that they have, did you? And you had all these sketches at this point, were you like, I want a collection that I design. Were you like, like, here are all my ideas. What do you think works? Like, what was your selling prop at that point? [00:37:19] Speaker C: It was that. It was like, here are my ideas. I'll do whatever you say. Like, it was really a song, a dance of whatever you want. Like, I'll do whatever you tell me. I think, because I didn't understand. I mean, nobody had asked me this before. I'd never been through this before, and. Oh, I don't know if it was at this time or maybe shortly after this, but I think it might have been before this. I was trying to find other designers who have collections at this size that I could talk to. It was so hard to find designers to be like, what do you do? What would you do? And so shout out to the people who I. I purchased the expert. Like, I was buying people on the expert to be like, hey, I need information. Like, and I'm shelling out, like, $750. A thousand dollars over here. I met with Bria Hamill. Huge shout out to her. [00:38:05] Speaker A: I was gonna say, you need to talk to Bria. You did. Okay. [00:38:08] Speaker C: No, wait. I pay for the expertise. Missed the call. I don't know what happened. Shelled out all this money. Missed the call like an idiot. And then I had to book another one. I was. I felt so bad. I was like, I am so sorry. Wasting your time. Like, this is crazy. But she was super helpful. I called Mikel Welch, Michelle Boyd. Benjamin Johnston has been a huge help. Jennifer Mabley, handler. Like, I have been trying to get to anybody. Nellie, Jane. Oh, my God. With Phoebe. Mr. Mrs. Howard has been super helpful. Anybody I could think of that could have something to help me with? I had to, like, get information before I think I really, like, solidified everything. [00:38:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. How much of that, you know, month and a half time in preparing that deck. How much of that was done exclusively by you? Or did you bring in resources from your team? Did you allocate any working time from them? [00:39:01] Speaker C: Nope. Everything was me. I think I was so nervous that I would lose my voice because I'm so used to having everybody else's voice. I'm used to having the filter from the client's lens all the time. I just was so. I was so nervous that someone would give me a little bit of advice that I just didn't want it until I could say, these are my parameters, and now let's all work within it. So I was really. I don't think I've really had any outside help even up to this point for the collection. Wow. [00:39:29] Speaker A: And because you are so skilled in other aspects of creating the actual deck and everything, you were able to execute yourself as well. Dang. [00:39:40] Speaker C: I didn't say it looked good. It got me the contract, so that was good. But yeah, I think I'm also a simple designer, so, like, just like anything, I think I pay attention to, like scale, proportion, like borders, parameters. My font's all the same. You know, I think I always kind of have a good eye for clean looks, and so that wasn't so hard. I felt like I pulled that together pretty easy. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Okay, so can you walk us through? We're at meeting one of three said, what happened over the next two. What could someone. And I'm sure every, every collection is different. Every, every. Every manufacturer is different. But, like, what did those next two meetings look like? [00:40:17] Speaker C: Yeah, so this was in December of 2024, come January, and I think moving into February, it was kind of silent. I had already known that it'd be silent because he had said, hey, like, you. The holidays were out, whatever, it's a lot going on. And so I knew I had a meeting coming up, and I think it was that February. I think I had a meeting in the February or January, it might have been January, whatever, had a meeting in High Point Market. And so I told him, hey, like, hey, I'd love to just present. Because I knew that he had to run it by the other executive team. Can I just present this to you guys and kind of get it off my shoulders? Because I just think in my head I was just like, let me just make sure they all understand what I'm saying. And then I can walk away from it scot free and say I did everything I could. And so I kind of pushed him. I was like, listen, I'm down there. I don't want to like miss this opportunity. But he was also game. He was like, yeah, sure. And so that next meeting, I met with him, the president, two of the designers for precedent. I met with, I think a marketing Sydney was there and maybe like one or two other people, and I had to present. So this time it went from 44 pages to, like, 66 pages. Because I was like, I'm not missing. I'm not messing this opportunity up. I'm not going to do it. And so I think I added a few more products that I liked. And then this time, I really focused on how I would be a great partner. And I was really focused on, like, what makes me a good partner. I understand these things. I understand manufacturing. I understand that we're talking about, like, you know, we're cap that capacity and capabilities. I understand I can't over design, and I understand, like, try to keep it domestic for shorter lead times. So as a brand partner, I. I elaborated how clear I was that I was coming in knowing or coming in not trying to complicate their existing systems. And if I could explain to them that I could still create great design in that, I just couldn't see how they could say no. And so that was the next meeting I had. [00:42:06] Speaker A: Okay, and how long was that meeting in High Point? [00:42:09] Speaker C: That was a couple hours, because I remember I. I'm pretty sure I think I got hit with, like, 45 minutes of questions after that. And so here's what led to the third meeting. So in that. In that time frame of. So I was having a meeting, I was supposed to leave the next day. And then while they were asking me questions, Tom gets on the phone and it's like, Calls the owner, Charles, and he's like, hey, I think we have something. We want you to see it. And he's like, when can you set up a meeting? And Charles is like, I could do it tomorrow. They look at me and they're like, duvall, when are you leaving? And I'm like, whenever you tell me to leave, I'm gonna be here till you tell me to go home. And so literally the next day, I packed my stuff in the hotel. I was supposed to go home. I go back to the whatever, and I present the exact same 66 presentation the exact same way. And now I'm in front of the cfo. I'm in front of, like, executive team and design and marketing and more people. And so that was my third meeting with them. And then by the end of that meeting, I walked through the manufacturing plant, and at the end, they were like, we're going to present you a contract. And that's how it happened. Yeah, it was pretty clear. I could tell. I could tell in the meeting that even the way that one of them was like, so when can you start? I said, that was a good sign. And so I think they just saw there wasn't a lot of room for them to need to change what we were doing. It was very clear how I fit in. I talked about how I fit in the market. I talked about how, you know, just everything. I don't think I left anything for them to really think through. And I think that was what closed it. [00:43:42] Speaker A: This might be my favorite episode ever. That's like the best story. It's so exciting to get to like, hear it basically in real time. I mean, that was just winter, spring of last year. And then here we are getting ready to launch. It's spring High Point 2026. [00:43:56] Speaker C: Yeah, it took like, by the way, it also took like four or five months to close the contract. Like, that took a long time. So even the contract I think ratified in like June of last year. So that was in a year. And then like, we're off to the races of producing something this free. It's been crazy. [00:44:12] Speaker A: Okay, so obviously you cannot talk too specifically in contracts, but based off of all the research you've done and your experience, can you walk us through essentially what compensation models typically are going to be offered or could be offered in this situation? Like, is it royalties, is it it salary, is it flat fee? What does that look like? [00:44:34] Speaker C: Yeah, I think we can talk about some of it. Some of it. I think obviously they, like, I want to be conscious of what they think, but yes. So we get paid a royalty on what you sell. And I think it happens after shipping. So that's one part. And then I have talked to other people, have different contracts and how it's built in. And so there are some ways that you can do it, is you get a deeper discount on product that you sell. So even what you sell, you get a deeper discount and you still get a royalty on the end of that. You have ways where you can set up your contract so that at certain milestones, your percentage of royalty can increase. So if you hit, you know, a couple million, 10 million, 20 million, whatever, they can increase over that time, or it can be a tenure of time. The longer you have collections with them, you also can increase without going backwards, that those are ways to do it. But they say, and I've actually talked to some other people too, and they were saying, because I was asking, like, you know, all these other big brands, like, how does that work? Like, are they also still getting a spoil royalty? And it sounds like a lot of places are like these big brands who will buy from the manufacturers still get a small royalty. They're just making the money mostly on the retail Sale. That was. What? I didn't know. I thought you just. Oh, like my royalty keeps going up. No, it doesn't really work that way. It actually just works by selling more product. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. Thank you. That's super helpful. [00:45:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:51] Speaker A: And then, you know, you said the contract actually itself actually took like, four months to go through. Did you bring in an attorney on your side? Yes. Okay. [00:45:59] Speaker C: Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I know. I'm. I'm. I'm cute and smart. I ain't cute and that smart. Like, that's not what's happening. So I thank fully. I've had some really great mentors who gave me a fantastic. Oh, my God, a fantastic attorney. I'm happy to share him with you, by the way, so you can use. He's fantastic. I don't want to give away on here just because I know some of our colleagues work with us. I'm like, ah, let me be quiet. But it also, it cost a lot of money, so I don't know if I'm supposed to say that, but I can tell you that it cost me, like, $25,000 to, like, close this contract. It was so expensive. [00:46:33] Speaker A: And that's before you knew you were going to get to the. To a closed contract. But, like, that's before you have a signed contract to then be spending. How many? 5,000. Yes. [00:46:41] Speaker C: Before a signed contract, before any royalties are paid. I, you know, before any salary or anything. Like, I'm not making any money until this product sells. And so this is a lot of money out of our pocket that I think. I wasn't. I didn't know how long this would take, and I didn't know how much money this would take. But it's a lot. And maybe it's not a lot to somebody else. It's a lot to me. So I don't know. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Yeah, no, totally. And at that point, because of the way you sold this collection to them, like, the way you got there, you'd actually also already invested all of that design time. I mean, you had product design before there was a contract. [00:47:17] Speaker C: Oh, it is crazy. It is like the drawings and the submissions and you're trying to, like, I mean, just everything, the through line and making sure your collection, like, any fashion collection that goes down the Runway, there has to be a through line. Like you're thinking those things through now. Granted. Oh, even I even went to. I think before my contract was closed, I was at Interwoven, where you. Excuse me. Where you're making your selections for fabrics. Like so we were already down the road with that. But I think that they also knew, like, we're going to close the deal. Like, they kept letting me know, like, duvall, we're closing the deal, like, and I knew at the same time, like, I'm going to close the deal. Like, there was. I could have accepted their contract as is, and it would have been easy. But, you know, I. I'm also a businessman. And so at the same time, like, we have things that work best for us. And so they were understanding, and we were understanding, and we made it work well. [00:48:05] Speaker A: And I think everyone listening can agree or haven't had the experience. And so you. You should know now to agree that you'll never have more negotiating leverage than you do at the time of contract signing. It is so much harder to renegotiate later than it is at the initial one. Even just like, when you're getting your job at a new company, you will get a bigger jump at the time of signing than you ever will after contracts have already been signed. [00:48:32] Speaker C: I felt like we were asking for the stars. I knew what other people were getting. I knew what. What should be average. And I was like, you know what? We're going to ask for what we want, and they can say no, and that's how. And they did. And so that's totally fine. [00:48:46] Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about the technical development of the furniture itself, how you said that you didn't know if they were going to want you to tweak stuff that already exist or come up with totally new. Can you tell us a little bit about the collection and where in that realm it kind of fell? [00:49:04] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I really thought it was going to be just, like, tweaking stuff. That's honestly all I really understood. And so by the time we were like, I don't know what phase this was in, probably somewhere after. Before signing the contracts and stuff. [00:49:15] Speaker A: Stuff. [00:49:16] Speaker C: And they were like, you know, I had to come back down to a high point, go back down to high point market and present the furniture, because now it has to go into production. And so I knew it from talking to another designer, was just like, hey, just have more than enough so that they can, you know, they will wean it down to a smaller collection. So I think we had, like, 70 pieces. And so I remember talking to Tom, just being like, okay, so who is my boss? And he was like, nobody. And I'm like, well, who do I answer to? He's like, nobody. We kind of answered to you. And I'm like, what are you talking about it was the strangest thing. And they're like, duvall is whatever you want. Whatever you want to do. Like, obviously, if it doesn't fit in their capabilities, they can't do it. Right? [00:49:53] Speaker A: Sure. [00:49:54] Speaker C: But they were like, whatever you want. Do you want sofas? Do you want chairs? And so that's kind of how it was. So as I was designing stuff, I started with, like, things that I wanted. Right. Like, there was one bed, the Sarah bed, that I really wanted for my own house. And then it was other things that I was just like, oh, I remember having to do this custom for a client. So I had. Because I didn't see it out. So that was another piece. I was like, oh, I can make it. Make that, that. And then, yeah, they gave me full carte blanche, even. They were like, hey, Duvall, what about the finishes? We have, like, 70 finishes to choose from. We want to just start with three with your collection to kind of have it as a, you know, one brand aesthetic. And I didn't like their finishes, and I was just like, I'd like different finishes. And so they let me make different finishes. And then even their cushion, I was like, I love your cushions, but I want a different style cushion. I. The way it sits, the way I like to have products sitting, they were like, all right, cool. They did prototypes for us. They made them, they tested them, and now we have different cushions. I mean, it. It's been crazy. I just. I wasn't ready for this. [00:50:49] Speaker A: But what an incredible first. First experience. I mean, I have talked to other people, big big names who had contracts with big, big, big names. And it wasn't as creatively fluid as this sounds like it was. I do have a question. In hindsight, now that you're, you know, getting ready to bring this to market, literally and figuratively, in hindsight, and maybe you did, would you have wanted them to sign something before you started presenting? From, like, an IP standpoint? From, like, [00:51:25] Speaker C: I talked to my attorney about that because it was kind of like, hey, like. Like, is it an NDA, like, kind of thing? Like, yeah, just, like, not to give out, like, our. I think I just didn't care. Would I do it in hindsight, a part of me says no, because I wanted to show them I want to be a good partner. I'm not trying to be difficult. I don't want to be. Make this, too, because they operate their business like we operate our firm. It's, like, very family style. Like, it's very, like, a handshake. And I Trust what you say. And I don't want to work with somebody I can't trust. Like, that's as simple as that. And so if. If you took my hand, that is a contract to me. And if you break it, we're good. I'm good to go. Right. So there's a part of me that's like, no, not that serious. And I don't know if I am the type of person who feels like, oh, my God, my idea was so different and it was so personal. You know what I mean? Like, I don't have that. And I think, great, if you like that idea, take it. I'll have another idea. I'm not stressed about that. So my personality. No. But would I tell somebody else? Yes, I think you should sign that. Yes. Before you do it. Anything? Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker A: Okay, so let's talk about. Well, let's actually wrap up this. But I want to know when can we see this collection? Because I know this is airing right before High Point, so talk to us about that. What can people expect to see? When can they come meet you in person? What does that look like? [00:52:39] Speaker C: They can meet me in person anytime, anywhere on Instagram. And then the launch party is going to be that Friday. So Friday the 24th at 5pm in Cheryl on the third floor, where precedent is. What they will see is we have three rooms. So the first three rooms that you come into on the right is our collection. So we've trying to do three different. It's not quite styles, but it shows our collection can go through something very traditional. A little bit more fine furniture and then a little bit more exaggerated because we want to show how it can go, just blend into different styles without losing our own voice. So that's what they'll see. And so we're gonna have a party. We're gonna have hopefully a ton of people there. And then each day I should be in the showroom, I think maybe like 10 to 2. We're doing Moscato and some macaroons. Macarons. What do you call. How you call that? Yeah, and so, yeah, they could see us every day from there. So we'll probably be there Thursday to Tuesday. [00:53:35] Speaker A: Amazing. Okay, so let's talk business strategy and growth. Because as someone who now operates a design studio, an E commerce brand, licensing collections, how do you think balancing creative work and the operational side of multiple businesses, how do you. How do you do both? [00:53:57] Speaker C: Also, I don't know if you know this. We have a furniture cabinetry business. We have a cabinetry business called Fairfax Kitchen. Cabinets, where we wholesale cabinetry to designers into the trade nationally. And so we actually have two team members full time there, separate from the design team. And then we have, I think six collections. So we work with six different brands to like. It's a lot. And so I think that I'm doing the best I can. I am losing a little hair, so I do have like a little bit of that, like stress alopecia. But I think because I feel like I am a businessman, this is my. This is where I am best. I don't consider myself a creative. Am I a creative person? Yes. Can I do creative things? Yes. But my core is I love business. So for me, this feels like my fish in a water kind of thing. It's what I do. And so I also think, you know, creating team members who just are the best at what they do, that they feel comfortable with having autonomy. They're making good decisions for me. I can't do any of this without them. I could not like even our Marcus with our photography and videography, he pushes me so far and he has great ideas. And I'm surrounded by. And my wife, who's just like the most. God, it's weird how supportive she is and without losing herself, Right. And so I think that I'm just surrounded by the best of the best and so that makes me look better. That's all it really is. [00:55:23] Speaker A: When you look to the future as an entrepreneur, where do you see the most, most growth potential out of those different brands or arms of the brand? And where do you want to spend the most of your time? [00:55:38] Speaker C: Great question. I think the most potential will probably be House of Duvall, which is going to be our intention. Like at some point I genuinely want to be the next great national furniture brand. Like, that's what I want to be. The America's next great furniture brand. That's exactly what I want to be. Are we going to get there? We'll see. If we don't, that's totally okay too. But yes, I want to compete with Crate and Barrel, Pottery Barn, our house, Restoration Hardware. I want to be competitive and how long that takes. I'm in this for the long haul, so I'm not expecting this to happen tomorrow. I understand. This is a 40 year journey. Great, let's do it. And so I think that's where we're headed. And I will keep our design business open because I want to like, I love design. And the cabinetry business, I think is such a great focus for designers because as a designer, I know what it Takes and what you want with the kitchen partner. And so I think that business will stay open. So I just don't have an interest in closing anything. But we will probably put more attention to House of Duvall. That will grow. We will buy retail stores, build the team there. But I'll probably keep my design team this size and just reduce the number of projects. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Okay, I really, really want to talk about social media before we have to go, because this is at the time of this recording, this is a newer series, but you recently launched this Curse of a Designer series, and I am obsessed with it. Like, I literally will watch each one five times over. I send them to all of my friends, and I'm just like, yes, yes, you are saying what we are all thinking. Where did that concept come. Come from? There better be a good story with it. And. [00:57:13] Speaker C: Oh, God. [00:57:14] Speaker A: At what point did you realize it was really resonating with people? [00:57:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I wish I had. Okay, sorry, I don't have a good story. The story was, I have to post every day because I was trying to, of course, be okay, so complete transparency. We knew that the line was going to come out. So last year, maybe, like, September, June, July, September, whatever. I was like, dude, I gotta build our following. Like, we have to get more. Like, I have to get more awareness, right? And again, we don't have a press team. I don't have a PR team. I don't have people doing this. I'm out here doing it. So I was like, all right, I gotta start posting. So we were just posting stuff each day, and I think what happened was like, I remember sitting down, just looking at my house and just, like, hating the stuff I see. And I complain about it all the time, and I'm just like, like, this is. This is like the worst. It's like, can you. And then I was, like, talking to myself. Can you imagine? Just like, you can do it and then you have no money to do it. Like, this is. And that's where it started. And so I was like, I gotta. I gotta post something today. So then I was thinking to myself, this is a curse. It's really a curse to live like this. So I knew that I wanted to make it a little series because I. I intentionally did the first one as a part one. I had not filmed the other ones, and I don't film in advance, so I just kind of film as they come up. And so I. The first one was like, people could tell. I could tell. People resonated. But the second one hit that one was like, it was like. It hit really quick. And when I was just like, I can't afford my own services. And I think that was a conversation. I don't know if it was like, after I came home and I was, like, looking at one of the projects I was doing, and, like, we bought, like, you know, we were talking to the client about this $27,000 table. Like, I can, can't. [00:58:49] Speaker A: I can't. [00:58:50] Speaker C: I'm looking at a sofa for my office, and I'm like, Gosh, $400. I don't know. That just seems like. I know I can. I know if I get to the. I can get a better deal than that. 400 is too much. [00:59:01] Speaker A: I'm like, what the crap? [00:59:02] Speaker C: That's how that started. [00:59:04] Speaker A: It is so good. And we all are sitting there like, oh, my God, it's so true. [00:59:09] Speaker C: It's relatable, though. [00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the cobbler's kids have no shoes. Like, that is. That is the. A tale as old as time. Humor can sometimes feel risky in the luxury design space, but your content manages to feel both, like, really playful but also polished. How do you feel like you are balancing personality and professionalism online, especially on the brink of dropping this huge collection? [00:59:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that I have to, like, I feel like I. I very much understand where I sit in the market. I am not a major luxury brand yet. I'm not out here on AD100, which I understand yet. Right. And so I don't feel like I have to concern myself with these billionaire clients who just need, like, privacy and they need me to act a certain way. I get that, and I totally understand that. And the designers for caters that great for you. I'm not that person. And what I've learned, too, is that we have enough interest in our business that. That I don't need to placate for a client. You either take what you have or don't take it. I also think I just have a respect for people's intelligence. I think they can see me being playful, but when I talk, I know what I'm talking about. I think you could tell when I. From a joke to us having to explain something, I feel pretty experienced in it, and I think clients could register with that. And then it takes out the whole pretentiousness of it all. And then me having difficult conversations with them becomes a lot easier because, like. Like, we're not both sitting on ice trying to figure out, like, what's okay to say and not okay to say. So I think going into, like, our Pose. I'm not stressed about it. Our clients comment on them all the time. My clients tell me all the time. Like, the clients I've had for years are watching our stop, and they think it's funny. And I think to myself, because I love my clients. I love who we're working with right now. If they're okay, I think the next person who I would love to work with, they'll be okay. [01:01:06] Speaker A: Well, I definitely think you have to be really smart to be funny. So I think that that actually really makes sense for things to really be funny and to be smart, funny, you have to be intelligent. So I can see how there's overlap there. [01:01:20] Speaker C: Love that. It's so sweet. [01:01:23] Speaker A: When you are running content like, Curse of a Designer, I think it's so interesting because your product line is about to be sold to designers, so you are currently talking to two different people. You're talking to potentially design clients, and you're also talking to designers who could be buying your product. How do you think about that? Do you think about that as, like. As on my account as a whole? Who am I talking to? And is there a point to this, or are you just like, this is what's on my brain and this is [01:01:54] Speaker B: what's going out there? [01:01:55] Speaker C: Yeah, part of it. This is what's on my brain. That's what's going on. I am not. I work really hard to not be pressured to be and do what everybody else wants me to be and do. Right. Like, I have learned at, like, I'm old now. You can't keep telling me what to do. I think that's kind of how I feel. And when I listen to podcasts and I listen to other people talk, they just talk about being authentic and being yourself and standing in your own space, and that's what really makes you authentic, and that's what really, like, drives, like, your success. And I'm learning that, like, the more I just be myself, the more I can just. Just let grow. Right. Can I back up and say, like, I want to answer your question. I hope I. I hope I actually answer the question. But one of the things. Oh, as far as, like, targeting to designers, one of the things I've learned in this journey that I did not learn until I'm on the journey, which I would like to tell people about, is I thought High Point Market was. Was a designer's, like, expo. And while it is now on the other side of it, I noticed that it's more of a. A buyer's game than I thought. I Thought because I'm a designer, you show up, there's interior designers. That's what we do. And so you meet each other and you go to the panels and it's your interior designers. But behind the scenes, they are concerned about buyers. These big buyers with these multi line showrooms are coming and they're dropping a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand at a time. They're buying multiple pieces at a time. They're selling you constantly. They're selling higher numbers than designers are all the time. There is a catering to them that you don't see as a designer. I didn't see that. I'm not looking at them because like when I go into a showroom, I'm staring at like my best buddy and be like, oh my God, we're kiki and having fun. But the person who just walked by you is a buyer for, you know, Furniture Land south. And they do $20 million with the company. Yes. They are going to be catered to to some extent. So I don't think I knew that at the beginning. So as we started designing the furniture, it was a little bit of a shift like I thought I designed because I want designers to love it and designers gonna buy my stuff. Wait a second. To be a national brand and to be something bigger than that, the market has to be a mass market. It has to be a bigger market than just designers. That's how again, all these retail stores are still surviving. They're not surviving off designers, they're surviving off the mass market. So there is like a really fine line and a balance we're trying to walk in, playing in very neutral, simple palettes where people can see it every day. So like, I don't know what yalls local stores are from like a Haverty's or Ashley's or whoever is buying multi brand stuff, like a Nordstrom. Right. They buy multi brand stuff. They can sell it, but then a designer can still look at it and say, actually the silhouette's nice enough. If I change the fabric, it'll fit my aesthetic. So I think that's where we're trying to come in different. And I didn't know this until I got here. Does that make any sense? I don't know if it. [01:04:46] Speaker A: No, it totally does that. It's buyers that are really walking through. [01:04:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:04:51] Speaker A: That brands are more. Putting more energy into potentially. [01:04:57] Speaker C: And not in a negative way. Because I don't know. Yeah, I don't want to sound like they're counting out designers because designers keep in mind, like when market started it was just buyers. Designers were not allowed in for many years. And so even though the last 10 years is more so where at one point it was like, 5% designers, 10% designers, I think now they're at, like, 40%. Designers are buying power of market, which is great, but we still don't consume the entire buying power. And so that buying power is going to these places where they're nationally sold. So imagine if I talk to one designer who's in, you know, in Virginia, but then I have another national brand that is in 20 different stores. There's a different conversation you're having about trying to sell your product to these people. I mean, that's the. That's the truth. [01:05:39] Speaker A: That's such amazing insight. Thank you. So having that insight now, what does it mean to you, personally and professionally, to be debuting a collection at High Point? [01:05:51] Speaker C: Anastasia Casey. I'm like, what is happening? I think I don't get it. There's a part of me that's like, I feel completely lost. I feel completely like, how is this happening? I. I'm a little kid trying to figure this out. I'm still new in business, right? Like, this happens to designers who are 20 years in and blah, blah, blah. But then there's the other side. I'm so taken care of. Sheryl has been such a great partner. Their team has been so gracious to me. I feel very safe, but also feel like, oh, I have a clear point of view. I have a very clear direction. I want to go in. They saw that I know this. And one of the things I was really grateful for as we had, I put out my furniture. I mean, excuse me. I put out fabric in the line for a designer to and was just like, hey, who does this look like? If you had to choose a brand, what this looks like? And I've set out my fabrics for you to have an understanding. They were like, I don't know. I don't think I've seen this. And I'm like, good. That's what I want. I want it to be familiar, because I don't want to do something crazy. Like, I'm not looking to have a collection that people are just like, this is stupid. But it needs to feel like, oh, Like, I'm not sacrificing a favorite brand to offset it with Duvall. It's a house of Duvall look that we can pick up, up and, you know, and to complement the other things. And so I think there's a part of me, again, I feel very lost. I've never done this. I've never been down this way. And there are not a lot of people you can talk to about this that can really get it. And then there's the other part of me that's just like, we got this. We can do this. So that's how I feel. I don't know. I'm torn. [01:07:22] Speaker A: Thank you so much for walking us through. As you said, information you cannot find. You were literally paying people thousands of dollars an hour to ask these questions. So thank you and you're welcome to everybody listening for free. And finally, Javal, is there anything else really exciting coming up for you, whether it's with House of Duvall, the design studio, or future collections and collaborations you're thinking about that you are allowed to share with us? [01:07:49] Speaker C: Yeah, we have a collection out with Paul Montgomery. We have two papers out with them. And then, like, we're trying to work out, I think, another five or six that will come out to 30 colorways, and that's supposed to launch in the fall. So we're trying to figure that out. We also have of. We're in the talks of some other products that we weren't expecting. Some things are coming up which we're excited about. But our projects, I'm really excited to start showing. Hopefully we'll have a couple projects that we can actually photograph this year because I feel like we were kind of recycling material. You know, all of us, like, working on projects for so many years. [01:08:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:17] Speaker C: But we'll be able to showcase some things and we have some. Yeah. Some brand partnerships. I think that'll come up. And so we just hope you guys stay tuned and like what you see. Wait, can I make a final statement? [01:08:27] Speaker A: Yes, please. [01:08:28] Speaker C: I love. I love Adiko. I told you this. And as a podcaster, I cannot tell you how much a lot of us want those hard questions. I want the information. Don't like. You do such a good job of staying on topic. You holding people's feet to the fire. You're not, like, taking over the conversation with all this, like, additional fluff. You are so clear. I am so grateful to be a part of this and I'm like, the biggest fan. So I just want to make sure you understand that I'm the biggest fan. [01:09:00] Speaker A: I hate when you guys make me cry on the show. Thank you so much. This is such a passion project that I never had any interest in doing, and it is totally my favorite part of the job. [01:09:11] Speaker C: So good. [01:09:12] Speaker A: So much. Thank you for listening. Well, I will see you at High Point. I will be there I'll probably talk to you in five minutes because we're working on your project and thank you so much for your time. This was such a great convo. [01:09:24] Speaker C: I had a great time. Thank you. [01:09:25] Speaker D: Thank you for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes [email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible. Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living. [01:10:26] Speaker A: A very special thanks to our presenting sponsor, laloy, the makers of beautifully crafted rugs, pillows and wall art, and to our episode sponsor and secret seasoned partner, Design Assist. The staffing solution built specifically to support [01:10:39] Speaker B: and scale interior design firms.