[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey and today I'm sitting down with Allie Henry, founder of Allie Henry Interiors, based in Utah. Most designers think about builders as logistical relationships. Someone to coordinate with, someone to negotiate around, and someone to manage. Allie Henry thinks about builders as one of the most valuable business relationships a designer can have and she has the pipeline to prove it. Before Allie launched her own studio, she worked directly for a builder as their in house designer. That experience gave her a genuine understanding of how builders think, what they need, what slows them down, and what makes a designer genuinely easy and valuable to work with. When she eventually launched her own firm, she took everything she learned on that side of the table and built a system around it. Today, builders are one of Ally's biggest drivers of new clients. She has cultivated deep relationships with luxury builders across Utah. Servants serves on the Utah Valley Home Builders association, and has chaired the Parade of Homes committee. Which means she is not just working alongside the community, she is embedded in it. In this episode, we are getting into exactly how she did it, what builders actually need from a designer, what designers often get wrong about that relationship, and how Allie has built a system that makes her easy to work with and how those relationships have compounded into a robust client pipeline.
If you have ever wanted to crack the builder market, or if you have builder relationships that have never quite turned into the business you hoped, this conversation is going to give you a completely different way of thinking about it.
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[email protected] hi Ali. Welcome to the Interior Collective. I'm so excited we finally get to chat. We've gotten to admire your work for years and years and years and it's just so fun to have you on the show today. Thank you for your time.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for having me. I've been a fan of the show for a long, long time and even came to design Camp many years ago.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I know it, it's like full circle. Let's go ahead and kick it off with just like A baseline understanding. Walk us through. Allie Henry Interiors today, your team structure, like your comfortable project volume number, how many projects you carry at once and kind of what your day to day in the business of that looks like.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: So we are a high end residential firm here in Utah, but we have projects all over the country. We're probably running over 40 projects.
So we are a large like volume firm, but we're a small team. We're probably like a team of 10. So I have two design teams and then I have a back end operations team that does all of our procurement ordering day to day look like for me, I definitely oversee a lot of the creative direction for like a lot of our larger projects and then also involved a lot on the business side of things as well. But yeah, we're busy.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: Okay. Already. I'm like, Holy crap, that is 10 is not a small team. That's a pretty large studio. Realistically, unless you're like, you know, a huge, huge studio. So that's not small. But 40 projects being your sweet spot is a, is a very impressive number. Just so I can make sure everybody is on the same page. When you say 40 projects, I know you're in Utah and so that usually means like new construction, full service, start to finish. Is, is that true of all 40 projects or some smaller remodels? Are you guys.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Yeah, we take smaller projects. So I think we have a variety where we have, you know, but we probably have a good like 15 that are, you know, 15 to 20 that are full service from, from start to finish. But a lot of them are smaller projects or they might be on hold for a minute. Right. We're going through plans or wrapping up and things like that too. So they're all at different phases of construction.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: Okay, well we will get into this further as to like how you have a pipeline that deep because I think it's like totally correlated to today's topic. But a couple other just baseline questions, you know, I'm always going to ask, how do you currently structure your design fees and how has that model evolved as your studio's grown?
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, so we are currently hourly. I'm actually looking into moving into more of a hybrid model just from talking to other designers, listening to the show, where we could do more of a flat fee for design services just because we have control over that and then move more into hourly as we get into the project management because we just. That's a little more out of our control. So I'm looking at possibly doing that over the next year, shifting more into that, but hourly has worked out well for us over the past few years, but definitely kind of always looking to improve if we can.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Well, I'm going to sound like a broken record because I'm actually, like, voicing my opinion on this topic a lot more this season than I have in the past. But I just. Knowing your business and watching it from the outside, I can completely comprehend why at this point of your growth, it would make sense to switch that hybrid model. Because hourly, you end up pricing yourself out. Like you guys have so much proprietary information that you're doing your jobs way faster, that you're, you're leaving a lot of money on the table. And so I hopefully by the end of this conversation, I will have convinced you in your next proposal going out, we'll have a flat rate on your design services portion. And like you said, on the construction management side of things, that is out of your control. That should always remain hourly. But you're on the right track. I agree with your vision.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Okay, so Utah specifically has a very active, very public, very competitive home building industry.
How has that shaped the kind of studio that you've built?
[00:06:15] Speaker A: I mean, I would say it's helped it in a. In a big way. I. I actually love that there's so many talented people here. There's so many talented designers and builders and architects. And so I feel like it's. It's pushed us in a lot of ways to be better every day and just to be even, like, creatively. How do we challenge ourselves creatively? How do we. How do we position ourselves well in the industry? And so I feel like it's been like, you know, somewhat healthy in a way that there are so many projects. It's so great here because there is a lot of new construction, there's a lot of land, so there's a lot of projects happening. And so it's really allowed us to, to grow and to kind of position ourselves, you know, in the industry when there are, you know, you are going up against a lot of bigger other design firms, but I feel like if you're confident in your processes and, like, what you're doing, like, there's so much work for everybody, you know, to go
[00:07:06] Speaker B: around before we start to really get into working with builders and how to maximize that.
Before launching your studio, you worked in house for a builder, which I think is such a unique value proposition coming from, like a client's perspective. Tell us more about what that role looked like and what you were responsible for back when you were working with a Home builder.
[00:07:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So I worked for a builder for a short time and I think one of the biggest things that it taught me was to learn more about like the construction process and also to learn a lot about budgets. Right. And, and a lot of those hard finished material selections. Because when you're working for a builder, they have certain timelines they're trying to hit. They have certain budgets that they're specific about hitting. And so those are kind of ingrained in you when you're working with a builder. So I feel like that was a big part for me working with them.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Budgets and getting construction bids is the constant, like, biggest question anybody has. And it often shapes like, what they're able to do. Obviously, as a designer, when you started to learn that, how did you go about, did you gain all that information specifically because you were working with a builder or did you start to after because you said it was a short time, did you start to gather that information when you were in your own practice? How did you start gathering what those numbers looked like?
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm still gathering, but no, I feel like the more projects you do, the more familiar you get with certain budgets and projects and what numbers you need to hit to hit certain, you know, build budgets overall and so being able. But I always tell my design team, like, we don't start designing anything until we have some sort of budget numbers or allowances so that we are making sure that we're not wasting our clients time or that we're redesigning everything over and over again. So I think it is like a big part of our firm to be able to know what those numbers are and then be familiar with them enough so that when you're picking product, you kind of know what should fall within, within those numbers.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: Have you had an experience where, you know, internally at Allie Henry, you guys have. We know that lighting on this square footage of a house is going to be in this ballpark or slabs or whatever it is, and then you actually get the proposals back from the builder and it's way off. But that's the builder they definitely want to work with. How have you managed, like what, you know, to be true in the industry and what a builder is coming back to you with?
[00:09:34] Speaker A: I mean, a lot of times we'll propose, like, we will ask to look at that before we start design so that we can go back to the client and say, oh, this lighting fixture budget isn't high enough. Like, do we need, you know, are you okay, like cutting out lights in the home or are we going to up that budget. And so I think if you're really proactive in talking with the clients up front, like, it makes for a lot better process as you get through the. Through the design phase with them, because there's nothing worse than coming back and being like, okay, everything's over budget, you know, and then they're all, like, disappointed and upset. And so I think if you have those conversations early, you're getting those budgets from the builder early on, then you can kind of make those decisions early and even. Maybe even deciding whether you're going to take a project or not, because there's certain numbers that you're going to get from a budget. You're like, I can't hit that number. And so that's not realistic. And so I think it's important to be really proactive in understanding getting those numbers up front so that you can make those decisions. Decisions early on.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Okay, Ali, I think that sounds like a dream scenario for so many designers. Will you walk us through, like, your onboarding process with someone so we can understand when you're coming into the project, how you've already gotten construction bids from people before you even start designing? I think a lot of people would prefer to work that way, but I think in practice, a lot of people are like, well, let's get the design and then get the number of what it costs to build that.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think on our initial call with our, like, with clients or potential clients, we're always asking, what square footage are we trying to hit and what's the budget number looking like? And so a lot of times, just from our experience and, like, what we know, we know at a certain price per square foot or where we should be landing. So that will help us even determine whether it's a good fit for us as a client. Like, whether we should take that job or not is knowing what the budget is and what their square footage they're trying to hit. Because, you know, $5 million on a certain square foot can only go so far. And so I think you just have to be really conscious of that in the very beginning. And then once we do sign on a client, if we find it is a good alignment for us, then we are making sure that the builder's giving us some numbers up front before we just go about picking all of our finishes and doing all of our design boards just so that we have some sort of idea. I mean, I have worked the other way where the clients, like, I just want you to design it exactly how I want it, and we'll just see where the numbers come in at. But I feel like that doesn't happen quite as often. I feel like it's usually the other way around where builders are giving us some sort of budget allowances for interior items, lighting, plumbing, flooring, and then we're seeing if we feel like that's realistic for the size of the home.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Do you feel like the builders and the caliber of builders you're working with in your particular market come to. You come to a project and like they can kind of spit out those budget allowances pretty quickly based off of square footage? I feel like there's a lot of markets around the country and in Canada where builders are also still kind of coming up with those numbers. Or they'll give you a number that is the number they think it is, but we know that that's not. They don't necessarily have the historic data to show. And then also it's not in a nice readily presentable spreadsheet for you to understand those numbers. Do you feel like that is the case in Utah, or have you really positioned yourself to be working with a great set of builders who have these numbers that can give you really early in a project?
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, sometimes it's a little more specific and some are better. It's a little more vague. So I think it depends on the range, like, of the builder. But even, like, because we have a lot of out of state projects and even a lot of our out of state projects, I am finding a lot of them are still coming with some, some sort of number for us. So, yeah, I think it is like we are attracting that or we're asking for it too. That kind of goes back to like our builder communication. Like we're asking for that up front and saying, hey, do you have some sort of, you know, pipeline or some sort of line of what we're kind of looking for in terms of where we need to hit, if we're trying to hit a home of a certain, of a certain caliber or certain price point, you know, and usually they have. They have some sort. If they're a good builder and they've been around in the industry for a while, they should have some sort of number.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, perfect. Thank you.
So what do you feel working on a builder side of the table teach you about how they think and did it help you understand what they actually need from a designer?
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I think for sure, like one of my big things with working with builders is just being proactive, like having things ready before they're asking for it. I think it's so easy for us in the industry to be like, okay, we'll wait for the builder to ask for this or that and then we'll get them what they need. And if you can actually be more proactive in having like. And they're looking for, like, builders are looking for designers that not come with all the options. They're looking for designers that come with decisions. They want people that are going to come and make a decision and communicate clearly and that understand the construction process. That's, that's what they're looking for because they've got to move, you know, through a timeline and they're working through budgets. And so they need someone that can come and help a client make design decisions and get through that process.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Okay, and then last question, as we're talking about your experience on that, particularly your process of getting those construction bids first, because you currently are billing hourly, are you billing a potential client for the time it takes you to get these construction budgets from the contractor builder before you even have a signed contract?
[00:15:02] Speaker A: No, typically we're usually signed on with them before. Before we're getting that information. So usually we've already signed with the, with the client.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Okay. So in a situation where a client is signed, then you're getting the construction budget and you're like, oh, crap. Like, that does not. We can't hit those. Does it just go back to having conversation of like, you have to find more money for those categories or is there a situation where at that point you realize you're not a fit?
[00:15:27] Speaker A: No, I would say, like, like I said, we. Because we do that initial call where we're asking square footage and overall budget of what they're wanting spend, we're getting that number pretty clearly upfront of if it's a good fit for us. So once we kind of align on that end and we sign with them. You're right. We might get budget numbers that do come in a little bit lower in certain interior categories because maybe they're inflating, you know, some of the building costs or things like that. So that can happen. But I think, like, I think we're able to work within a budget too. So if it is lower, I think we just, it's setting the expectations of the client of knowing what you're going to get. Like, oh, you're not going to get this quality level or you're not going to get as many light fixtures because we're having to cut out certain things because the budget's lower. So just Having more of an awareness. It doesn't mean necessarily, like, we would drop a client, but we're going to be very clear with them up front and being like, hey, you don't have. This isn't enough money to do all the light fixtures in this home. So you're going to either have to cut out lights or you're going to have to, you know, increase your budget in these areas.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Got it? Okay. Thank you. All right, let's dig into the actual meat of our conversation today. It is so fascinating and incredible to me that builders are now one of your biggest sources of new clients.
How did you begin cultivating those relationships after going out on your own?
[00:16:47] Speaker A: I mean, I would say, like, I didn't specifically go market to builders. Like, I think that's kind of the misconception is that we should run out to builders. I think what I just have tried to do over the past few years is become a design designer or a design firm, you know, whatever you are, that a builder wants to work with. Like, that's my big thing, is, like, figuring out what a builder needs, what a builder wants. How can I make their life easier? It's already, like, a lot for a builder through the construction process. And I'm like, how can I make this easier for them? And I feel like as I started doing that, I feel like then builders saw, like, our process. They saw our design docs, and they were like, wow, like, these are really good. They have a really good process. We want to hire them again. And so, like, at the end of the day, I think a lot of times too, like, a builder's not going to remember which designer picked the most beautiful tile. They're going to remember who it was that they worked with that was good to work with. And so that's. That's something that I'm also constantly, like, just is ingrained in me.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: So do you feel like in your market, people are coming to a project with a builder first because they're building from the ground up, or are you also referring builders back?
[00:17:59] Speaker A: I'd say it goes both ways. Like, sometimes people will come to us with a builder, or sometimes they'll ask, and we'll definitely refer builders that we've worked with in the past that it's gone really well. I think it could go either way.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: So you serve on the Utah Valley Home Builders association and have chaired the Parade of Homes committee.
What has that community involvement on the build side of things done for your business specifically? And, like, the most black and white concrete terms you can Track.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: I mean it's, it's definitely helped my business. I, I'm actually from Utah, but I lived outside of Utah for 11 years. I moved back eight years ago when I started my business. And when I moved back I really didn't know like I, I didn't have a lot of people that I knew and in the industry. And so I joined the committee and it's been really good for me to just be involved and get to know a lot of the builders in this area.
I also do the judging for a lot of the parade of homes. We have one of the best parade of homes in the country here. And so I've been able to go out with some of the high end builders and judge with them. And so hearing what they want and what they're talking about, what they're looking for in design and at home has really helped to kind of solidify what I want to be to builders. And so it's actually been a really good exposure for me. And then also just kind of gives you credibility, you know, to be, to be involved in the community and give back to the community too. Like we want to push the design here, we want better design here. And so we're trying to constantly figure out how our design firm can push that a little bit too.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: For someone listening that is inspired to maybe get more involved on like the build side of things through networking events and associations like that. Can you give a very rough estimate of like what kind of a time commitment someone should anticipate parti when they're participating in a parade of homes or on an in an association chair for someone to really decide. Can I allocate those, is that worth putting my marketing networking time into?
[00:20:06] Speaker A: I mean, I would say it's only like a couple hours a month for me. Like I'm pretty busy with my client projects as you kind of heard. And so I'm spending the majority of my time with my clients. And so it's not a huge commitment for me and but it, it comes back to me so much because it's again, it's a small time commitment, but I feel like it's, it's paid off for me in big ways where I've been able to connect with a lot of builders in, in this industry.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Do you think that a newer designer should have reservations or hesitation, feel intimidated walking into a room full of builders and like how welcome were you received when you did go into that new space in what's probably a pretty male dominated room?
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it could be very intimidating. I mean, there's a lot of people also though, just involved in the community that join the association. So it's not just builders, it's, it's subcontractors, it's vendors and things like that. So really there's so many people that are a part of it. So I don't think it should be super intimidating. And if you're confident in what you're doing and like the processes you've put in place in your business, there's no reason why you shouldn't feel confident going into some of those spaces.
[00:21:16] Speaker B: Okay, so Ali, you gave the example or the specific direction of, you know, you didn't start out purposely marketing to builders and you're like, I just really focused on like, what can I do to improve what I'm delivering to a builder? For a designer without your in house background, who wants to build relationships with builders? Where do you think they should start? Okay, so I've gotten everything buttoned up. I feel great about my process, but where should I start to get my face in front of builders?
[00:21:45] Speaker A: I mean, I would even recommend like because we, so we put together like it's a contractor send out folder is kind of what we create folder specifically for them that has our interior elevations with all of our detailed interior architectural drawings. We have our design board presentation in there. We have appliance specs, we have countertop layouts, we have tile layouts, we have millwork details. So I kind of put together like a folder like that. But when I'm kind of talking to newer builders or I want to kind of show some builders what I've done or if somebody were to try to get started, I would say show them what your deliverables are like. Show them the work that you're doing and what you're providing. Because that's where we've shown like builders. And a lot of builders will come back to us like, wow, this is really detail oriented. And this is like all the information I need. Like, I love this. Like builders are going to love you when you have very detail, have thought out all the details. Like they are going to come back to you over and over again. Because they want that, they want that organization, they want that like timeline of being able to, to know those decisions ahead of time. And so if you can put together some really nice deliverables and send it to builders, like I think that can really pay off for you.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. And when you say send it to builders, you mean like go ahead and send it to their office or you know, whatever like, specific location they have. It doesn't even have to be something that you're, like, personally walking in and having to, like, hope someone's around.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I for sure think you could do that.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: Perfect. Okay, so how do you approach a builder relationship differently than a client relationship? In the earliest conversations of a project, how are you speaking to a builder to really set up a great working relationship and, like, make sure you guys are on the same team with the same goal post?
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah. All right. This is a really great question. Cause I was thinking about this, and I feel like a lot of it is the same with the contractor and the client in that I'm trying to gain their trust early on. Like, that's always like, the key is, like, how do we gain trust early on in the process? You know, and that's. And I think it's also.
It's through different ways that we're doing, you know, with the builder. You know, they have different goals of what they're trying to achieve through the process, but both the client and the builder are both wanting it to be successful. They want a successful project. Right. And so figuring out what success means for each of them, you know, for a client, it could be meaning, you know, making sure that their vision is heard and that they feel like that you're presenting on budget or that you're. You're hearing out what they want in a home and how they live. And for a builder, it's like making sure that I have all the things that I need, that I'm organized, that I'm, you know, being communicated to. And so I think really just figuring out. I think what's been really fun for us is because we've worked on so many different projects. I've worked with a lot of different builders, and they all have different ways that they communicate. And so one of the things that we've tried to be really conscious of is just being flexible, too, in how we work with a builder. Not every builder wants to work the same way. And so you have to kind of flex a little bit to be able to work. And I think if you offer that flexibility a little bit, you're going to find more of those builder relations growing stronger versus being kind of like, stuck in your ways and saying, nope, this is how I do it. And not that you can't still follow your process and still be firm about certain things, but if you can be able to flex a little bit to how they work and being able to really gain that trust early on, I think it can make a Huge difference for your business.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: I think that's so true on even the client side as well. We've experienced in our own studio, which is obviously not interior design, but working with designers that sometimes like, the higher the caliber, the bigger the budget.
Being more flexible in your process is kind of expected when you're dealing with those kind of numbers. And I can see that that goes the same with working with a builder. For sure.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Have you ever. Obviously, I don't need specifics, but have you ever invested a lot of time, energy, resources into a builder relationship that just did not pan out? And how would you navigate that relationship differently in hindsight?
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. We've had situations where it hasn't worked out. I think everybody probably has, but they'd be lying if they didn't. Right. But I mean, I would say one of the biggest things I look for is a builder that doesn't value collaboration. You know, sometimes certain builders are set in their ways and they. They don't want to do that special design feature that, you know, we're trying to incorporate in our design. And so usually those are the ones that, like where it's kind of an attitude of they don't want to be collaborative, they just want to, you know, get the job done, really are the ones that don't work out the most for me. And, and also, you know, builders that aren't very organized, if it's like we're sending the same thing ten times over and over again. But I also think it's real and it's easy, I think, in this industry to play the blame game. Like you're going to hear time and time again where somebody blames for this and that. And I just think you can't have a collaborative team of, you know, architect, designer, builder, landscape, where that's happening. If that's happening, it's not going to work out. But I also think not every builder is for everyone. And I don't think you should be seeking out every builder. Like, I think you should seek out the builders that you want to work with that have your back and that really you've created that collaborative effort together. Because I think in the end, we're all going for the same. Like, we want a beautiful product in the end and a beautiful process for our client. Like, that's. That's the goal for all of. All of us combined in the effort. And, and so if you have somebody that's not kind of aligned with you on that, then it's never going to work.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: Now, okay, this is A part where I'm going to super geek out. I'm so excited that you're sharing this with us. You have developed a system specifically designed to make the builder's life easier. And this is how Allie Henry works with your builders. Can you tell us more about this process and system and what you are providing your builders?
[00:27:43] Speaker A: Yeah, so, so I would say like again, kind of. And I did touch on this a little bit like the beginning, we're really asking the builder certain questions, like I want to know what their timeline looks like, I want to know what the budget is, I want to know what vendors that they like to work with, I want to know how they like to communicate, do they prefer, you know, texting, do they prefer email, do they prefer slack? Or like what, what types of communication is best for them. So I think once we can kind of get aligned. The other thing that I really try to do well with our builders is set up regular meetings with them. Whether it's bi weekly, I feel like once a week is usually too much for us or once a month and then have them try to collect all the things we need to talk about. And when we meet for that one meeting, like we're going to go through everything because there's nothing worse too than when a builder's texting you like every day and asking about this and that. Like we're busy and we don't have time to maybe reply to every single thing. And so we really want to try to filter that into something that's a little more organized. I mean, obviously it's not going to happen all the time. Like builders are going to text, you know, last minute. And that's fine, that's just the nature of the job. But if we can really try to set up something where there is something. And then the other thing that we put together is that contractor send out folder that I talked about where we put our interior design elevations in there, our design presentations, tile layouts, appliance specs. So anytime they have a question, we're pretty detail oriented on everything we put in there, they're going to refer back to that folder and then if there's no answer in the folder, then reach out to us and let's, let's clarify, let's get communication on what we need to. But that folder has been really life saving for us in terms of like a contractor having what they need at all times. And our interior elevations are so detailed that there is not a lot of things that are missing on that if they will actually open it up and look at it.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: I think everyone who's listening is like, cool. How did you get them to read said folder? I think that that's what people are like, you know, I'll come by, I'll paste up new QR codes every single week. I will be emailing them everything redlined with what changed, and they still are not looking at it. And so those constant flood of texts are still coming through. How, how do you, how do you coach your builder to say yes? I can't wait to go over all of these questions with you next Tuesday's meeting. During this time, how do you start to, you know, still be flexible and available to them with setting these boundaries of like, you have that information or we're gonna talk on Tuesday as we have scheduled.
[00:30:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of times we will send. We will say, oh, that's in the pack. That's in the interior design elevations. That's in the elevation pack. So we will kind of say that. And then if they have more questions, they'll reach out, but we will kind of guide them to that, like, and tell them where to go. Or, like, do you have that? Do you need us to resend that to you? So we will do that quite a bit.
But, yeah, I mean, it's going to happen. I don't, I'm not going to profess to claim that it's not going to. We need to answer a question today.
The contractors that you know, the subs there. But I have found that the more organized we are and more proactive we are ahead of time, there are less of those problems coming up later on. If we are kind of able to set that up ahead of time.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: If you've been running your firm for a few years now, you've probably got a system in place, and I do use that term loosely. It's going to be a mix of apps, some spreadsheets, maybe a project management tool that was close but never quite right. And you are still the one holding it all together.
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[email protected] of the contractors you've worked with, are any of them using a project management software that they bring you on, like buildertrend or something like that? We've talked to some builders specifically in Utah who are like, oh, everything's run through a software.
Can you share that experience a little bit and does that change your process at all?
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I've worked with Builder Trend quite a bit and so usually we'll just put the same documents we put in our folder in builder. So whatever, wherever, however they want to receive the information. One of the things we have done which I actually think has been super helpful for us because I feel like an interior design elevation packet for some of these whole homes can be over 100 pages long. Like, it's a lot of information what we have done specifically. And I don't know if other firms are doing this, but this has just been helpful for us. But we are actually pulling out certain parts of it and actually creating like a separate countertop layout just for the countertop people that's 10 pages long. Or we're pulling out millwork just for the millwork people. Because I have found that if I give, you know, a con, you know, a countertop fabricator 100 page document, their eyes are going to glaze over and they're not going to like be able to like understand. But if I break it down into those specifics or tile layouts, we do a specific tile layout and we just send it to the tile guys. They really, that has helped a lot in terms of getting that information to them without overwhelming them too.
[00:33:32] Speaker B: That's brilliant. And then it's just one extra step your team has to take to make sure that any changes are being saved down in the master packet as well as the broken down ones as well.
Okay. So builders operate on tight timelines and supposedly non negotiable budgets. Yet designers are constantly telling me that build costs change, things come up and build in particular, and therefore interior designers budgets are the ones that are getting cut because of just simple order of operations and kind of, well, we need a roof and we can sacrifice a sofa. How have you structured your process to work within those constraints and to kind of protect Yourself from a design hour minimum. And really, it's that final furnishings budget that, like, we're most concerned about.
[00:34:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's why we ask for those budget allowances up front. Because when we have those budget allowances, it also makes me feel confident that the builder has done his homework in knowing what are my lumber costs, what are my Sheetrock? Like, what are the costs that maybe aren't related as much to interiors? And so when I have the lighting budget or the plumbing budget, I know what my budgets are up front. So if a builder tries to come back to me halfway through the project and say, like, oh, actually, it's only this much, I'm like, well, what happened to the original budget? You know, that means you went over in another area, which it does happen. Right. And so at that point, I think the goal always isn't to just be able to cut design. Like, I think that's sometimes what it always kind of results to, but it's actually to kind of realign our priorities with the client and say, what's most important to you now? Like, is it more important that we get millwork in this home, or is it more important that we have cabinetry over, you know, in certain areas, or furniture, you know, like. So I think you have to start kind of then realigning with your client, because it does. It happens through projects. And so. But the most important thing for me is to really talk to the client. I mean, obviously, like the roof thing, that's always a bummer because we're going to have to have the roof over.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Over.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: Maybe some interior finishes.
But I think for sure, being able to know those numbers upfront, those really, if a contractor is good, though, those should fluctuate a little bit, but not a lot. Like, and those should stay pretty firm.
But it is. If it does happen, I think it's going back to the client and really figuring out what matters most to them and realigning those priorities with them of what they want in their home.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Do you have any protections in your contract in your process for just, like, spend fatigue someone, okay, now they have this house, and then they're like, you know what? I don't care about wallpaper. I don't care about the furnishings. And you're like, this was a critical project for me. I was so excited to shoot it. And now if we're not even furnishing 12 of the rooms, like, it's kind of a waste for me. Have you guys. Does that happen that often to you? And if so, how do you Protect yourself from that.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like it's happened somewhat. I feel like most clients try to keep, like, the. For furnishings. I feel like you're trying to keep the main floor. Right. Or those main key spaces, you know, and those are usually spaces that we are ending up going and photographing at the end. It is unfortunate when that does happen, but to me, it's also like, that probably wasn't planned in the very, very beginning. Like, though, like, you have to save money for. And I tell everybody, like, don't miss out on furniture. Like, don't, like, budget for furniture in the beginning. Like, you have to budget for that in the beginning because it will. It will get sucked up by the build a lot of times through that process. And so, like, right now, like, we are trying to only sign people that actually are wanting to do furniture. That's something that we've been able to just over the last little bit, been able to kind of say to a lot of clients, just, you know, because we've had so many great inquiries coming in. So we feel fortunate that we are able to say that or do that. But it doesn't mean it doesn't happen through the process. But we work with people, like, we understand things happen, and. And we still want them to be happy. At the end of the day, we want a happy client, and so we're going to be able to work with them on whatever it is that their budget ends up becoming.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: You mentioned a few minutes ago talking about asking how the builder prefers to communicate. Is that email? Is that phone call? Is that text?
How have you systemized communication with builders so that they always have what they need from you without becoming a burden to your team? Because I know some designers have little kids and they're like, hey, when I'm out of the office, like, I'm not answering your texts.
How have you kind of found that balance? Is there a balance? What does that look like for you?
[00:38:11] Speaker A: Yeah, we actually do Slack. We love Slack. I think. I think you guys use.
I think I heard about it maybe through the podcast, but, like, I love Slack. And we set up a private Slack channel for all of our clients, which is so great for our team, because I don't like texts, because get too many texts, emails just get lost or so many, you know, junk emails you get. And so our Slack channel is kind of like our paper trail. And if somebody, like, if I don't see a message, somebody on my team will see a message. We kind of have, like, a rule within 24 hours, unless it's a weekend you reply to a client, so no clients are left unanswered. And then also, if our builders want to join that Slack channel, we also allow them to join onto that too. So. So then they can. They can see what's going on. They can see our communication back and forth. And it's, you know, none of our clients are seeing each other's. It's just between us and our team, which is so great for that communication, I would say. Most builders, though, also, like, they prefer email if it's, you know, some of them will do text messages, but they don't. It's too much for them too, you know, and so a lot of them are through email.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: I love the Slack channel idea, and I'm assuming you guys have an. An additional internal channel for that project as well that you guys are talking in your experience, what makes a designer genuinely easy and valuable to work with from a builder's perspective? I know you said, you know, having great documentation, really clear elevations, anticipating questions before they actually come up. Know that you need to have your grout picked. It should not be something that, you know, they hopefully don't have to do. 27 different grout boards for you.
What are other tactile things that people can put into place right away to maybe improve even an existing builder relationship on a project they're on?
[00:39:59] Speaker A: I mean, I think one of the biggest ones is to not have an ego, like, be able to show up and be humble. And I think when you're working, like, with a builder, one of my favorite parts is actually working with some of the subs and, like, figuring out something, like, if we have a really cool design feature or something we're trying to put in. Like, they do have knowledge in their area of expertise. And so work with them, like, and figure out. And maybe if your design is too complicated, like, like, how can we simplify it or make it still what we want it to be?
Or maybe you are pushing back and saying, like, no, like, I really do want to try this. Like, I want to see if it's something. And pushing them a little bit too. Like, it's pushing each other. And so. But I think you also, you just can't have an ego for that. Like, you just have to be able to be humble and just say, hey, we have to leave egos out the door. And.
And then again, it's just kind of working in that more like wanting to be collaborative because we want the best for the client in the end. Right. And we want that. That's like that's gotta be. Our attitude is like in the end of the day like we want a happy client, we want a really beautiful project and product. And so it's like, how can we put that all together?
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Ali, I want to talk about like the actual impact on the business when it comes to specifically a project that was brought to you by a builder. How does a builder referred project differ from a client who maybe came through another channel in terms of scope, budget and how the project's going to work? Because from a very novice outside perspective, it feels like a project coming to you from a builder could result in a bigger project for you than when someone's reaching out who's you know, doing a renovation or something like that. What, what do the numbers really look like in the difference?
[00:41:41] Speaker A: I mean I would say the one thing that's nice about the builder refer is that you're joining early on. Like you always want to be joining early on in the process and they already have that trust in you. So you've already established that. So that's you're already like one step ahead. And being able to hire, be hired on early with a client is so valuable. Like we provide so much feedback.
I was just met with an architect, like a really well known architect in Utah this last week and he was just saying like there's so many things that we can decide but we have to do it in the plan phase. Like things have to be decided and so being able to be hired early on can be really nice when you are. But also like if a builder refers you like they're trusting you so you gotta like live up to that and like you gotta like they have confidence in you and so you gotta consistently be consistently performing like time and time again. Like otherwise you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose out on that, on that next client.
[00:42:35] Speaker B: Well, perfect segue. Thank you. Ali. One builder can potentially be sending you multiple projects over years.
How have you continued to nurture those relationships? So they keep producing particularly after a project has wrapped, but you had a great experience with them, you'd love to work with that builder again.
Are there any touch points or like just updates you're sending them to keep you to keep your studio top of mind?
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean I would say we're probably not doing as much as we should be doing.
We are working on putting together some deliverables I'm really excited about. They're putting together some kind of like soft books that I'm going to be like sending to contractors and things like That I think one of the big things we invest in a lot of our holiday gifts at Christmas time, like, and I'm sending it to all the builders that I want to work with and just making sure, like, they, you know, know that we're here and that we want to work with them and just letting them know, like. Like this was such a great experience, building them up, you know, Like, I think it's great to build up builders that you loved working with and talking to clients about how great they were and what they do well in the process, I think can go a long way for you in terms of your relationship with those builders.
I think also the one thing, and this I know was something that we kind of were. That was kind of asked as well, was that.
But also maintaining my independence too, I think, is a big key part. I think there's a lot of builders that have kind of in house designers. We're seeing architects that are kind of moving toward having more of these, like, in house design firms. And I'm like, I still want a client to interview us and interview our firm and make sure we're the right fit. And I tell them to go interview other designers too, because sometimes when you get a referral, it's not. It's not the right fit for you from a client perspective. Right. And it's not the right client. And so if you make sure that you're also saying, no, we still need to interview, you guys, still need to pick us, and we make sure that we're the right fit for each other. Because there's nothing worse than just getting referrals for jobs that you're not super excited about or that maybe aren't a good fit for you too. So I think it is really important too. And I always, like, kind of preach, like, I think it is good for people to hire a separate builder, architect, designer, because we all, like, independently are working for the same person, but we all have our own viewpoints too. So that's kind of a whole other topic or things that we can go into, but just something that I feel really passionate about as well.
[00:45:01] Speaker B: You sort of just answered this, but I'm. As the wealth of knowledge you are, I'm wondering if you have more additional answers. Are there downsides or tensions per se, that come with being so deeply embedded in the builder community?
[00:45:17] Speaker A: Again, I would just say, like, it's kind of, again, maintaining that independence and then also, like, really figuring out who's the right fit for you. Because as you start to become, you know, well known or Amongst a lot of builders, you really need to find the ones that are the right fit for your firm too. And I don't think, you know, every builder is for you. You need to find the ones that are right for you. And so that's one thing that we are like constantly working on. Like, we're not, we're not perfect at that yet, but we're figuring out, we try out different things, we try it with a different builder and see how it goes. And then maybe we evaluate after the project and be like, you know, maybe that wasn't the best fit for us. But I think it is constantly kind of evaluating what works and where you want to go and like, what types of projects you want to be doing. You know, that can also influence what builders you're reaching out to. Because I think a lot of builders have different styles, have different clients they attract. And so it's like you want to align with the ones that you have same vision with.
[00:46:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
How do you balance, as someone with 40 projects at a time, how do you balance the pace of like builder driven projects with more bespoke residential client work that's like, oh, this project's going to be, you know, have all of the really beautiful final finishing touches versus a builder who's like, okay, walls are up, we're wrapping this up.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm always going to take the bespoke over the builder always like, and that's just more of like a creative, like alignment, like if I have a client reaching out. We still get a lot of our work from Instagram.
You know, we get a lot from builders as well, but a lot from Instagram too. And I feel like we always are going to want a project where somebody has reached out. They've seen our work, they've seen our process.
And that's why I kind of go back to when I do get a builder referral, I still want them to interview us. I still want them to interview other designers. I want them to make sure it's a really good fit because not all your builder referrals will be a right fit for you. And that's okay. And I think it's okay to let the builder know. And it's not to say to the builder like, oh, we don't want you to refer us to be like, hey, that probably wasn't the right fit for us. But like, if you get another project, let's, let's touch base. You know, again, do you, in that
[00:47:34] Speaker B: situation, would you explain to a builder why you felt like it wasn't the right fit or do you prefer to keep it kind of short and sweet and just be like, that project wasn't a great fit for us. Like you said, please think of us with in the future. We'd love to still work with you on something else.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: I mean, I think it depends on what it was. Like, if it was a budget thing, I would for sure tell the builder. Like, I'd be like, oh, that budget and square footage didn't totally align with what we were looking for because sometimes builders are like, they'll take whatever they can get. Not all builders, though, are like that. You know, some are going to be a little more exclusive. And so.
So if it was related to that, I mean, if it was more of like a purely like, oh, I have this really cool, you know, exciting project that maybe is a little more in, like the wheelhouse of what we want to do style wise. Like, I might not be that specific to them about that, but if it was more relating to, you know, something else, or I felt like the client's personality wasn't quite aligned with us or something, then I might be more honest with the builder about that.
[00:48:32] Speaker B: Got it. And then you can follow up and find out how that crazy client worked out for them.
What systems or processes do you feel like a designer definitely needs to have in place buttoned up before really proactively pursuing a builder relationship?
[00:48:50] Speaker A: I mean, I would think a lot about what your process looks like today in terms of your design team and how you approach a project.
I mean, we have a very detailed systems and processes that we put in place through Asana. Like, it's a very detailed template of, like, what we're following and we've found that that has worked really well for us. But I think, like, I think at the end of the day, you know, we can't rely on talented people to remember, you know, like, all the things, like, we're going to forget things. I think it's more important that we're putting systems and processes in place that is going to support our talented people. People. Like, I have super talented people that work for me and I'm super excited about, like, the work that they're producing, but they also kind of fall within. We do have a pretty set system of how we do things and the order of operations. And it allows us to really produce beautiful work and be very creative, but also to be very organized as well. And I think that once you can kind of figure that out and that's what I like, again, I'll preach that over and over again is like, not only do I want a beautiful product, in the end, I want a beautiful process too. And I want my clients to be happy and refer us and tell their friends and things like that too.
And so that's one thing we're always striving to do. Again, we're not perfect at it. You know, we're still learning as we go. But I think once you feel confident in that, then it's like, let that be known to the builders. Let them see your work, let them see what you're doing and help build that confidence of why they should hire you.
[00:50:21] Speaker B: When you get to the completion of a project, what does your internal project review, data collection, analysis of a project look like? Because it sounds like you guys are pretty data driven in the sense of like, you know what things should cost. You have the kind of those scopes all outlined. Can you walk us through how you evaluate a project so that you can be doing better the next time and learn what worked really well?
[00:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean one of the things we do is we do send like a follow up to a client after which is always like for good or for bad. Right.
To get the ins and outs of kind of what we did well, what we didn't do well. I think internally we talk about too, like what went well on that project, what would we do differently on that project, what didn't we like about happened on that project. So internally we're meeting, I think from external we're definitely reaching out to the clients.
We're also like, we are a studio designer driven. I learned that at design camp and I've been hooked ever since. But we are in studio designer. We are looking at our numbers, we are looking at our certain profitability that we're trying to make on a project too. So we do look at the profitability that we make on a project at the end and make sure that we kind of are landing with within what that range looks like for us.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: Is there anything in that review process that you get to that you're like, okay, if this was. If we fell short on our profitability margin and it was in any way tied to your builder, what would that metric be like? Is there, is there a metric that you're like, that's one place you should check because that's where either scope creep, if you didn't plan accordingly, if you weren't billing hourly, where are some of the little like pain points that you're like. We always double check that.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think it's usually always Timing, like a project goes over timeline, right? Like it was supposed to end in a certain date and it's three months, six months delayed. Right. That's usually always like, the reason for us going over on a project or us not hitting our numbers is because of something like that, which is sometimes out of our control, which we do try to protect ourselves in our. Our contract with something like that to protect ourselves, because that is going to happen, unfortunately.
But, yeah, related to the builder, I mean, it could be tricky. I think that's why it is so great to be able to work with, with a builder you've worked with before, because you know what to expect. You know what that's the hardest part about, like, estimating a job up front is when you have never worked with that builder before, you have no idea if you're going to be doing the ordering and, like, doing their job for them. Right. And so how can you figure out a way to, like, not have to do their job? But I think that's also, again, a communication up front where I've learned to be more communicative of, like, what will you be ordering? What will I be ordering? You know, and understanding, like, because if I'm not ordering certain things, I'm also not making a profit on those things as well. So really understanding up front those things, then by the time you get to the end, you kind of knew what you weren't going to be ordering or what you were or what. What you had control over and what you didn't. But it's. It's a tough one. I think that's a hard. That's a hard question, because that's a hard one to measure for sure.
[00:53:25] Speaker B: Definitely.
Allie. I'd love to know what Allie Henry has in the pipeline. Exciting projects you're working on. Maybe it's product, maybe you have a book deal. What's going on that we can all be on the lookout for?
[00:53:39] Speaker A: I mean, honestly, like, I'm just excited about our projects that we're working on right now. We've just been getting some really great potentials. Like, we're actually doing two homes that burned down in the Palisades. We're rebuilding those, which is so cool. We're doing a lake house out in North Carolina. We have an amazing, like, stone farmhouse that we're doing out on acres in Tennessee that we're working on.
We also are excited. We've been working with, like, a PR firm over the last year and hopefully some collaborations are kind of in the works for us too. So, you know, we're always kind of looking to expand our horizons a little bit here.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Well, it sounds like you are incredibly busy and one thing I've always so admired about you is you have stayed in your lane. You are focused on serving your clients with the best possible deliverable and the most beautiful homes. So thank you so much for divulging all of this insider information about working with builders. You made it feel a little less scary than I think it feels to some people.
[00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I don't know about that. It still can be scary sometimes, but we're figuring it out as we go, so. But thank you so much for having me. It was so great to speak with you
[00:54:47] Speaker B: for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or at patreon.com/forward/the interior collective thank you so so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and quinnmade. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time. I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living. A very special thanks to our episode sponsor, Laloi, the makers of beautifully crafted rugs, pillows and wall art, and seasoned partner Materia, the Design Platform, helping interior designers source materials, manage specifications and streamline project workflow.
