The Power of Emotional Design in Boutique Hospitality with Amanda Jacobs

Anastasia Casey: Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey. And today we are exploring one of my very favorite corners of design that is often overlooked on this show, hospitality design. Joining me is Amanda Jacobs, founder and principal designer of Amanda Jacobs Design, a studio known for creating boutique hospitality spaces that are both deeply intentional and widely memorable. This episode is a powerful reminder that good design isn't just about the way a space looks, it is about the way it makes people feel. Amanda and her team approach every project with storytelling, sensory experience, and a soul at the forefront, blending elevated aesthetics with true hospitality. Whether she's designing a hotel lobby, a cafe, or a wellness retreat, her work invites people in and makes them feel cared for, something we could all use a little bit more of these days. In this conversation, Amanda shares how she vets aligned clients, her exact process for crafting emotionally resonant spaces, and why she believes thoughtful design has power to shape culture. If you're ready to move beyond just looking cool and design with more heart, more soul, and more staying power, this episode's for you. AC: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into The Interior Collective podcast episodes now on Patreon. Unlock access to in-depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions. Subscribe now at patreon.com/theinteriorcollective or linked in the show notes. Join The Interior Collective Patreon community, and let's continue this conversation. AC: Hello, Amanda, and welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you on today as we get to dig into designing for hospitality projects. Amanda Jacobs: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to dig into it as well. AC: I know that you're a super well-versed designer and your work encompasses all different facets, but I really appreciate you taking the time to dig in here with me about hospitality, because it's not something we've gotten to talk about a lot on this show. So let's start by getting to know the business side of your studio. How many people are currently on your team and what does that company structure look like? AJ: Right now we have three full-time employees and we also actually have two interns that were taken on this summer. We do kind of have interns come and go at the local design schools, but our actual staff right now is three full-time. We have myself and Grace, who's my design director. And then we have Sarah, who's our project designer. So we're like mean and lean. AC: Amazing. I have found more and more recently that so many studios are at this like sweet trifecta right now and that three is like we can get all of our dream jobs done but we're not taking on projects just to cover our overhead and it seems like a really sweet spot. So I love that for you guys, especially if you have a little extra help from interns. AJ: Yeah, well, you know, and it's taken us a while to get here. Like we've had a team that was more, where it was more like five of us and then we've, we've trimmed down. And I do think we've kind of found that sweet spot. It's working out really well. And I think a huge part of running a business is also your employees and making sure everyone's happy. And it's easier when you're not trying to manage 10, 15, 25 people. So right now I'm very happy with where we're at. AC: I absolutely agree. I feel like for my own businesses, once we hit seven, I stopped designing anything or like really doing anything that I started the business for and all I did was manage people or oversee their work, I guess you could say. But like there is definitely the threshold that like you go from participating in your business to like now you're literally just overseeing it. AJ: Yeah, absolutely. And I could see you being a very good people manager. So you're probably great at that. So it's hard to like scale back and be like, but I miss, I miss the design parts. And I'm at this point where I'm like, I know I don't want to lose that. So I really have trying to focus in and make sure our team is solid and we all have the same, you know, desires moving forward. AC: You know, sometimes, thank you for the compliment, but sometimes I get caught up in like, man, I really miss those good old days when I was like working on logos at three in the morning and exporting them, the files myself, and then I'm like, wait a minute, I absolutely do not miss exporting files myself. AJ: Yeah, maybe you missed some of the newer feelings as you were exploring those things and the excitement of it, but you're right. There are definitely things that you're happy to pass on as you get more growth. AC: Totally. Okay, so can you talk me through what your personal role is at Amanda Jacobs Design today? Are you still involved in all design decisions or are more focused on business development and general creative direction? How in the weeds are you? AJ: Yeah. Well, to answer that fully, I'm totally in the weeds. Like, I am, I was saying earlier to Megan, I'm like, I'm over caffeinated. I'm under-slept, but this is probably really true to life for a lot of small business owners. But I, it's very important to me to be involved in the design. That is why I started the business. That is why I think my purpose on earth to be very broad with it. But I think I'm meant to do this and I don't want to ever, when I get to the point where I'm, I'm not touching that. So I would say that's the biggest part of my job, but on top of it, you know, we have to do whatever business development is required, thinking about the growth of the business and the direction we want to take it, marketing, you know, chief financial officer, like all of the little roles that come into play, I do have to manage that as well. So it becomes quite a juggling act. But I would say primarily it is still in the art of design, which I'm really, really happy about. AC: That's amazing. Congratulations. Cause that's incredibly hard to hold onto and maintain even as soon as you have one person under you, let alone, let alone, you know, team of three. So as you're talking about all those different hats you wear, do you have any like practices or rituals to like help time block or you like, you know, we do design reviews on Tuesday or whatever that is. Is there anything that you've really implemented or is it really like, we know what's in the pipeline and I'm just crossing it off as it gets to us. AJ: Yeah, I definitely need to be managed a little bit. And that's what my team is great at and Grace my design director, is very on top of the scheduling and making sure we fit in time. And, and she starts to feel it for like running short on this creative thing. She'll block out that and be like, you need to just focus on this right now. And that really is helpful for me because as you know, as a creative, you really do kind of have to shut out the rest of the world sometimes to make these things happen. And it does require a little bit of inspiration and mood making. And so I think as long as we keep putting that in the calendar, we do that really well. And it's not always the same. Like you're saying, like every Tuesday, like we do have like our team meetings that kind of get everything back in order. But as far as the creative stuff, we just lock out time as we need to. AC: Okay, so I'm diving directly into heavy-hitting questions and it just made sense as I laid out this episode, so I apologize for being like, boom, how do you charge? But I am curious how you charge for your hospitality work. Is it different than when you're doing residential design? Because I feel like the money side of things with those clients works differently than a residential client. So flat fee, hourly, hybrid model. AJ: Yeah, no, you're totally right. They are very different, but I think I've just kind of created a method that works best for me personally. And that's the flat fee model. I, the tracking of the hours and I've done that before. So I know how that works. And I think part of it, the experience has led me to this, which is I kind of know what it's going to take for me to get from A to B from B to C. And so I can kind of judge my flat fee according to the square footage by how many hours I think it's going to take of my time, you know, the timeline and scope of work, all of those together. And I would say my experience on top of it has just led me to say, okay, this is what I'm going to charge for my business to run. So this is what I'm charging for this particular project. I always think it's a work in progress. I don't know if other people feel that way, but it's, I'm constantly evolving and thinking of new ways to bill and, how to invoice this way or that way. So it's very much a process, but right now I feel comfortable with the flat feet and that's what's working for us. AC: Amazing. And am I hearing this correctly that you are charging flat fee for both residential projects and hospitality design? Okay, perfect. AJ: Yeah, that's correct. And like I've said, I've done it other ways before, but it seems to give our clients a peace of mind. And I know, and this is what a lot of people say about flat fees. They're like, well, there's going to be projects that you end up overworking and there's projects you probably underwork. And my mentality is that it all evens out in the end. You know? And so there's definitely times where I'm like, whoa, that was easier than I thought. And then other times where like, I did not anticipate that. I didn't expect all these issues and I just think that's part of the business. Like I don't get too hung up on it. AC: I think that for someone who's looking to break into hospitality, the flat fee model makes a lot of sense from a business planning perspective as someone's getting ready to open a restaurant, a salon or whatever it is that they're looking to open, they have their own budgets in mind. And it can be a lot more strict of a budget than a residential project where maybe there's other money coming in that they can stretch their budget or there's other things that can compromise. There's a little less flexibility, I feel like, in a hospitality projects scope as well as the budget. And so I think that's really smart. So I'd love to ask you, how did you initially break into hospitality design? And if there's like a pivotal project that shifted your studio in that direction? I think it's a particularly poignant question right now. As people are feeling residential projects possibly slowing down that there could be other places that they could be doing amazing projects. AJ: Yeah. I mean, I think I just always had the desire to do commercial work. And so as we started the firm and I was doing projects, there was, would say one pivotal project, one of many, kind of takes you a while to get there, but it was a developing space down the street from my old studio. It was like an old meat packing facility and we heard it was going to be turning into a bar. And I really just like kind of put myself in front of them, meet our new neighbors and let them know this is what I do, happy to help and kept that connection. And so when they were in need of someone like that, we were who they thought of. And I think people like people they know and they want to work with someone local a lot of times. And that really worked in our favor. But I would say going into that, I was definitely felt like, okay, do I know how to do this? But I'm kind of a glutton for punishment in a way where I'm like, I’ll figure it out and I can handle anything. And so I took it in stride and really did everything I possibly could to make this project work. Cause I felt like it was a foot in the door. AC: Amazing. I think the physical presence, like physically showing up into a space, getting to know the neighbors is so powerful because we don't really have that luxury as much on the residential side of things. It's a little creepier to just be knocking on doors. But I think it works. I think it could totally work in a commercial space. So that's super helpful and an amazing tip for people to integrate into their own marketing efforts. AJ: Well, and I've taken that philosophy, I will say, like further with me into the career where anytime I hear something coming up or there's a potential project, I will reach out. Like I have no, you know, what do you got to lose kind of thing. So I think if someone's interested in something, they hear about something coming up, why not reach out to the owners or the investor, whoever's involved in that project and put yourself out there. AC: Can we dig in a little bit more to that? I'd love to hear like how you're pitching yourself. Like, yes, you tell them what you're all about. You show them your work. Are you talking, at what point do you start talking numbers? Like if it's something that they're like, we weren't thinking about bringing in designer in or it's like, have an architect, we don't need an interior designer. Like, how are you getting to the point where you're like, there is room in your budget for me and this is like what it's going to cost. We have flat fee model. You can like, you'll know exactly what you're getting out of this. Can we talk a little bit about that? AJ: Yeah, that's a great question. I hopefully it doesn't take too much convincing. I hope that, you know, with some projects under my belt, I do think that that is adds weight to it, right? There's some experience there. They have things in your portfolio they can look at. The other aspect is just telling them what you believe and how you think this space could be transformed and hope that aligns with what they're also looking for. I've done it through LinkedIn. I've done it through email. I've you know, kind of searched the people and to me, it's just a great way to network. And if things don't work out, I've had people be like, I'm coming back to you as soon as we're doing this project it’s not right. It's a waste of your services because we need it to be more generic or whatever. And they get something else that comes up and they think of you. So I think just putting your face out there and kind of talking a little bit about who you are and what you believe design is and how it can transform a space can be enough for someone to be like, yeah, I resonate with that. AC: I’m really excited to get into talking about your ethos of designing for how people feel in a space. But as you were talking about your pitch, it did make me just really kind of acknowledge or realize that having past commercial projects is so powerful because those are spaces you can invite someone to go see and experience in person. And again, it's not as much you want to go to my past client's house, we're going to go knock on their door and see if you can come in. But that does feel like such a powerful marketing tool that you don't always get on the residential side of things. AJ: Yeah, you're exactly right. You get so much more exposure. And I mean that in like a, it's exposure in a scary way, as much as it's a great way, right? Because you're putting yourself out there much more, I think, with commercial design, as far as like, you're really opening it up to the public. But that's the fun and the challenge of it. I've gotten projects from someone walking into a space and being like, whoa, this is, yeah, I feel something here. Who did this? And that's led to some great projects. So that's a great sign too, because if someone comes in and they feel something, then hopefully you'll be in line together to create something that they're wanting to create. But it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes it's just pictures and talking about the project. And that should be able to sell it as well if you're really passionate about what you do. AC: I'm curious, having designed so many commercial hospitality spaces, has that led to residential clients who have gotten to experience your design on that side? Because again, I'm just in such as mindset of like marketing and client pipeline right now as I'm hearing so many of our clients are experiencing a slowdown and I'm like, wait, this actually sounds like a great opportunity. AJ: Yeah, I guess that's a good point is that there's, feel like new businesses popping up everywhere and who knows with the economy, how that shifts. But even through COVID, I felt like there was still a lot of commercial stuff happening. A lot of that didn't get put to rest. And so I hope, you know, throughout the rest of our, you know, economy that stays the same way and they're able to shift if you're doing residential to commercial. We do have people reaching out who've been to our spaces and want us to do their homes. And sometimes that works out. Sometimes it doesn't just kind of depends on what they're doing, but we're pretty selective on the residential ones and not because we don't enjoy it. It's just a lot of work. It's a lot of work in a different way. And I think commercial is intense and you know, all the details with codes and all of that stuff. Yeah, we have to work through all of that, but there is an element as far as the details going and you know, in a residential space where you could have, you know, a 7,000 square foot space and 25 rooms. Whereas if you're working in commercial space, it's like, you know, have the bar here, you have the drinking rail there, you have the seating there. It like kind of is more fragmented in a larger scale. So personally, I prefer the commercial, but the residential sometimes really suits us. And that's been nice to kind of keep our toe in that. AC: Okay, so let's talk about your point about wanting to work with clients who care about how people really feel in a space, not just how it looks. Can you explain what you mean by that? And then how are you vetting slash attracting the kind of client that gets that? AJ: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's still a work in progress. I feel like that's hopefully that's not the theme of the podcast episode. She's a work in progress, but AC: Everyone's a work in progress. Always. Everyone is. AJ: We're just learning through every project. And I feel like we've kind of shifted our focus and really dialing in on what we want to attract and what we hope to attract with our clientele. And one thing we've landed on is that we just need to talk about it more. And it's kind of fortuitous that we're doing this episode right now because I think this is a great opportunity to speak about what we're doing and how important it is but a huge, like guiding principle would be just conversations with your potential clients and talking about what they're wanting with their space, what's meaningful to them listening for key words. Are they talking about mood and experience? Are they talking about, the space look cool? And there's been times where I've been like, yeah, I can make a space cool because I'm, I like to kind of be a chameleon and like dig into the, the client's wishes and become that for them. But it it's harder to connect with those kind of clients and the results then don't speak as far as representative for what you're trying to say. So we've learned, I think in a good way, but the hard way that we really need to be particular with what projects we're taking on and make sure that we're aligned with what our clients are wanting to provide for their customers and guests and employees. So we listen to what they're saying, like how they want their employees to feel. It's very hard to do a space for someone and the client is saying, I want this, this, and this. And then you go in and you talk to the employees and they're saying, they don't do this. They don't listen about that. We have no place to sit. We don't have places to put our bags. And so sometimes if there's that disconnect, it's hard because you're like trying to make everybody happy and you want it to be very collaborative. But, you know, I'm digging into some of the issues that come up with commercial all to say that it's important that in those initial conversations, kind of can weed through some of those foreseeable issues and maybe say, that's a red flag. Or they just talked about a moment in their grandmother's kitchen that inspired them and that's why they want to feed people. That's a green flag. So we kind of have to listen for some cues that lead us in the right direction. AC: For instances like you were saying when you're talking to the team and they're like, we don't even have a place to put our bags. How often do you catch that as a red flag and then are like, this is something I feel comfortable like pushing back to the client and saying, have you considered we could make a really great team space? Or is it like the fact that they aren't thinking about their team that is such a flag that we're not gonna be a good fit? AJ: Yeah, and fortunately, sometimes that happens all too late and we're kind of already in it. But initially if we can get the client comes first always. And so their intentions and what they want behind it really have to be the direction we go. But we also want to take in part everybody else's, you know, the day to day operations and all of those elements. I think that ideally we get a feel for that at the beginning by asking the right questions. And that might prevent you being too far in line, but I guess all to say that's happened to us before we've been like, wow, there's a huge disconnect between employee experience and client wishes. And then also, which kind of translates to customer experience. So if you're not caring about what your employees think and you don't care about guest experience and you're more like, I'm trying to get people in and out, turn tables. I think that's a pretty clear sign that we're not going to be the right fit for it. And it doesn't mean you still shouldn't have a nicely designed space, but that's not our intention and what we're doing. AC: How do you define hospitality through the lens of interior design? I feel like a lot of people, a lot of companies, and maybe this is like my personal interpretation because my sister's an architect at their studio, they do a lot of interior design within their architecture firm. What does it mean to you to like truly care for someone from an interior's perspective in a hospitality space? AJ: I love this question. And it's like really hard to answer, but I will do my best. I think that hospitality design in like the most basic form is intuitively generous. I think it's about being able to give to people and provide for people. And I've said this before, but to take care of them. It's not just about beauty, although that's a part of it, obviously. It's about comfort, warmth, making people feel at ease, a space that anticipates your needs, how the light fills the space, you know, a space that supports you, whether you're celebrating or you're grieving, or you're trying to connect with someone. I mean, that's what these spaces are for. And sometimes they don't lend themselves easily for that. you walk away being like, I couldn't even hear myself over all of the noise, or I was so uncomfortable. So I'm fidgeting so then they're not able to focus on what's in front of them. And so all the senses that are there, we have to really tie into those and kind of from all of that hopefully create something that's memorable and meaningful. AC: That is so beautiful and so amazing to think about. I think about it so often from a home perspective, but it's so true. My experience when I'm out in public, whether it's having dinner with my husband or meeting girlfriends or seeing my grandmother for lunch or any of those other things, it is so dramatically affected by, as you said, could I even hear who I was sitting with? What was that experience really like? Oh please go ahead. AJ: I was just going to say, and we can probably talk about this further as we go, I think immediately those things should be felt as you walk in. There should be a point of being like, huh, I'm comfortable here. So I do think it starts with that, and then we break down all those little pieces as we go. I think you asked some questions further, and that we could break into it a little bit further. But I think that a lot of times the way it physically looks is less memorable but the way it feels is so much more impactful. Like I know the space was beautiful. I left there being inspired, but it wasn't because of how beautiful it was. It was because how it made me feel. AC: Before we get into the intricacies of your process and collaboration and what it's like to work with teams, for listeners who mostly do residential work, what mindset shifts would you say are necessary when designing for hospitality and designing with this mindset of it being about how it makes you feel and not necessarily what it looks like? AJ: Probably the number one shift mentally would be designing for the collective and not for the individual. I mean, there's a benefit to the residential is that you really can hone in on that he's like one or two people or whoever's inhabiting the home. But when you have to design for the collective, you really have to be mindful of everybody and what would be welcoming to everyone. And so you have to create that setting where everybody feels seen and you don't know who that's going to be. So you really do have to use intention. You have to be intuitive. I think part of that is, you know, from your gut, but then also a little bit of restraint, you know, because we can't be 100% sure. So it's kind of creating this like space for everybody to feel welcome in, but you don't know 100%. You have to go off your gut and be like, this is what I think people will feel great in. AC: Amazing. Okay, let's dig into process. Can you walk us through the early stages of a hospitality project? You've pitched or someone's come to you, they've onboarded. How do you begin a design that's meant to feel nostalgic, warm, welcoming, and entirely unique? Like what is the initial concepting phase like in hospitality? AJ: Well, it's always fun. I get super excited about any new project. I think because I always have this like all the opportunities and all the ways we could go. And I love the idea of like helping someone. So I get really inspired immediately when I start talking about it with this potential client. But once we have that project and we start digging into it, things get a little bit more serious. And all of a sudden you like put your game face on and you're like, okay, what, how do we, how do we reach this goal? So I do think there's an art to hospitality. I think you have to kind of immerse yourself into the details. I'm very inspired by the building itself, whether that's an existing building or something being built. I think the architecture of it really should lend itself to a huge part of the direction you go design wise. Listening to the intention, what the clients are wanting to provide. Like there needs to be some sort of narrative anchor that kind of keeps you guided throughout of that. So whether it's mood or a memory, it's like an emotional framework, if that makes sense. So I think it's all about the conversation. So if I have a client who's like, I did, you know used to paint and now I don't. And so I want to create all of this beautiful, and this is coming from a real life client who is just so inspired by art and her grandmother was an artist and her mother was an artist. And the way she spoke about it was just so beautiful and so meaningful. And it was such a, a strong anchor, like I said before, for us to like build off of that would tie in all of these details. And I think that when you go with that intention and kind of always fall back on this is why we're doing this for this person who this meant so much for, and it has led her to this moment all these years later. Other people will feel that when they enter the space and that will make them feel taken care of and loved. And so it's just a matter of like trying to articulate that and then how to create it visually and give it some sort of soul as you walk in, even if it's like a brand spanking new shopping center. We have that challenge. AC: Yeah. So a lot of what I'm hearing, seems like storytelling really plays into your design process. It certainly seems to be playing a big role in your own creative process, but how does storytelling help you sell your design to the client and in turn also like to the public as well? Are you painting these romantic pictures for them to really envision when you're doing your presentations? Is there a story you're building within it or do you really lean on the visuals when you're presenting? AJ: Yeah, oh my gosh. Yeah, so we're working on getting even better with this, but we've always done what we call a design direction. I'm sure other designers follow this format where it's some type of quote unquote inspiration board. Those images really are to evoke emotion, not necessarily a literal element like this kind of metal stairwell or stair rail or this marble steps, but it's more of like, this is how the way the light comes in. This is the softness of these textures. This is the moods and the tones of the colors. And this is the age, you know, by this black and white image versus something that's new and fresh and modern. So we incorporate all of that into one visual aid. And then we speak about it, you know, what inspired us, why we added that. And it becomes very scrapbooky. And I think that at the get-go with our projects, we did much more cleaner formatted visual. And now we're leaning into this more like pulled together, collected, layered imagery that feels almost a little bit overwhelming at first. And then they can kind of take it in and start to think about how this image and imagery on this page is making them feel. And we've started including like this as a sense that you should be smelling when this image here smells like this, tastes like this, you know, naming it with like things that you taste, listening to a specific song while viewing this. And that kind of just adds all of this emotion to it and takes away the fact that you're just looking at something on a computer or your phone or a piece of paper and just makes it much more, oh yeah, I'm in touch with this particular vision or I'm not. And that saves us time before we like get deep into all the design details. Like, oh yeah, I know exactly what direction we're going because you aligned with this, you loved it, it meant something to you, it made you cry. Okay, let's keep going. And that's something we do literally like step one before we're into any of the design details. And it just allows us to make sure we're all on the same page. AC: I want to see one of your presentations so badly. AJ: I want to share it with you. We've started adding like a storybook to it and like my team is incredible. They have the same passion and desire to make it so much more meaningful. Just like a home, your client, this is like they're putting everything into this, right? Whether it's a massive investment or if it's like a dream that you've been holding onto your whole life and working towards, or this is like all of your life savings into this coffee shop. And I've left my other career to make this. It's like really important. It's not just another business. And so I think like trying to get in tune with why someone's doing that and what they're trying to provide for people and, the guests and customers, it's really such a fun, but important part of our job. And I think so many times it's overlooked because we're like, let's make it cool. Let's make it trendy. Let's follow this, you know, formula. And I just don't think it's that simple. AC: So, hospitality projects often have a much larger cast of characters, a larger team, from branding consultants to operations managers to the architects to city code enforcers. How do you integrate your vision with those collaborators and the constraints that they, you know, whether it's legally or just like professionally are required to put on you? AJ: I think at the end of the day, this is a service industry and we're here to serve. This isn't about me getting across my vision to the world. It's about helping someone else develop their vision and provide that to the world. It's definitely, you cannot be selfish about it. And I think you have to be willing to compromise at times. And we've, definitely done that in every project. And sometimes it really can make a project better. Sometimes it can make it suffer depending on you know, where those fall. However, I think the best thing is to be a good listener. Try your very best to appease everybody's fears and concerns and make sure that you're able to communicate that with everyone. I do find as the designer in these projects, you kind of seem to be the middle man and people can't say what they want to say to their boss. So they come to you and other people, their boss can't say what they want to say to their employees or this person. I mean, we've had to work with boards with hundreds of people. When we did a museum, like you're talking about a lot of opinions, and it comes down to the core of like, really, who's in charge and who's representing the project, that comes first. But then also making sure that you're listening and involving as whoever needs to be involved and taking all of that into consideration. But I will say all of that, you still have to advocate fiercely for the integrity of the design. So we can't we can't make every sort of compromise that's out there because we want to make sure we hold true to that. So it's, it's quite a balance and every single time it's a different kind of challenge that presents itself. 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Interior Collective listeners receive 50% off their first month. AC: Can we talk a little bit about the technicalities? You mentioned like when you had that first job up the street from you that they were turning into a bar. You also mentioned how commercial is a heavier lift and a lighter lift in different ways because of like the codes and the things that you need to know. When we're talking about this team of people, obviously there's different scales of a team, whether it's a coffee shop that, you know, one person is opening or there are investors or anything that's involved. How did you start to learn those technical things, the codes, those things that are needed and required for a project? Is that something you lean on the architect for? Is it something that you shadowed the architect to understand? For someone who's looking to dive in, how did you start taking bites out of what feels a little overwhelming? AJ: Well, by not being afraid to ask questions, by not being afraid to let people know you don't know everything. I just had this conversation with another designer who's stepping into boutique and she had asked me the same things and I was like, you are not supposed to know everything about commercial kitchen food design. Like that is ask the chef, ask the people in charge who are running it day to day, you know, their inputs and all of that stuff. If it's in your scope to do that, then also go to another professional in that realm and get help from them and pull them in on the project. And I think just getting as much help as you can until you feel like you're comfortable in this particular arena of the project. think that you make mistakes learning also. Like I have the very first commercial project we did, we put in these amazing velvet curtains and then I realized they were not up to code fire, fire code. Cause as someone said earlier today, they're like, you just have to make sure nothing can burn down. That's like the number one priority in all of these like commercial spaces. They're like, can this light on fire really easily? So I think that learning that the hard way, we had to fireproof them and get this whole chemical spray that went on them. So we didn't have to replace them, but it was like a little bit of a process. And I've made mistakes as we go that have taught me a lot of things, but also I'm really an avid listener and try to lean on the architect and the contractors and those experts as much as possible. So if there's something I'm questioning and I'm not sure, I'll reach out to them and say, hey, I'm thinking of doing this. Do you foresee any issues with this particular scenario? And then they're straight out will tell you. AC: Are there, do you have any guidelines for in your experience in hospitality design where the architect's job ends and yours begins as far as like, I mean, is it to the hard finishes? Is it, are the architects actually picking the hard finishes? Just kind of like, where is that line? AJ: Typically, if we're involved in a project, the architect doesn't go too far into it. Like they're working on the permitted drawings, but they're looking to us as far as the finishes and all of those details. I'm looking to them to ensure that, you know, code wise, do we have enough toilets and do we have enough sinks for the occupancy of this building? You know, they're looking to an engineer, is this structurally safe? So it's very much collaborative, but also at a certain point what I've experienced is they kind of back off because they don't want to be responsible for design or feel like that's not their, that's not my arena, that's not my forte. So handle it. And that's what you were hired to do. And so I'm happy to take over if they want to have more input than I, it's usually a little bit of a juggling act to try to make sure they don't feel dismissed. But ultimately I do what I think is best for the client. So there's been times an architect that says, no, do not paint that building this color. And we were like, do it and it looks incredible. And it didn't affect their temperature control and all of the stuff that was anticipated. But that's just a very small example of a time we were like, we're going to disagree with that and think you should do this instead. But for the most part, you you need all these experts involvement to make sure that everybody's not making a mistake. And we're all kind of building each other up and doing right by the client. AC: What are some of your, I love that example by the way, I'm so glad you painted the building. What do you feel are some strategies people could implement to balance function and form in spaces that get such heavy traffic like hotel lobbies or restaurant banquets, like without compromising beauty? I feel like if someone was looking to get into boutique hospitality, that would be a really hard jump to like resource everything. Even saying that something's kid and pet friendly at home is not the same as a hundred people sitting in a chair a day. AJ: No, you're absolutely right. You do have to consider that and that there's a fine balance. And we still, you know, kind of push boundaries a little bit here and there. I think one thing to take note as a hospitality owner or someone who's providing a space that lots of people will enter, things will get beat up. They will get destroyed. Let's be honest, even the most well-built materials are going to age and fall apart and will need replacing. I think constantly having that in mind makes it less stressful when you're like, I just spent all this money and now this chair broke. That just happens. Even the most heavy duty things can fall apart. If we take away the texture and the soul and the warmth of everything, we're living in concrete buildings with concrete blocks and bulletproof glass and steel. And it's like, that's cold and uninviting. I really don't want to go that direction. I want to make sure that we find a way to provide some longevity, but then also appeal to all of our senses. So I just think it's more about what materials age really well, what finishes get better with time and show patina understanding that these things will probably need to be replaced, but it's totally worth it to have these antiques chairs in this corner. I know they'll break, but they were inexpensive and we can replace them or let's reinforce them in some way. So they have the age, but they hold up longer and being okay with a ring mark on your table, being okay with a stain in your marble. I don't get turned off when I go to Paris. I've never been to Paris. I’d love to go. But I would not be turned off if I went into a very old bar and there were stains on the marble. I'd be like, look at this marble. Isn't it amazing? It's like so aged and patinaed. And look, this was a stain from some famous poet. Like there's something really, I don't know, tangible about that. So I guess all of that to say even the most well constructed and built things will show that age if it's lived in and used and loved. So it's just a matter of preparing for that and doing your very best to make sure that it lasts as long as it can without trying to be like, I just don't want someone telling me that they want a chair that lasts a hundred years. Like that's just not realistic, but we're going to do our best to get you something that's due that fits the way or the material that you need, but still feels right for the space. AC: What would you, I'm curious after that like initial kind of vibe check presentation, that initial presentation, what the rest of the design process looks like as far as presenting designs. Cause in residential, I know that there's a lot of designers who will go, okay, all hard finishes first. Then we go back to fixtures and furnishings. Some designers are saying, I present the whole house all at once. And some people are doing it room by room. What is your process for commercial space? Are you presenting everything at once or are you doing hard finishes? Then you go back into furnishings and fixtures. What does that look like? AJ: Yes, that's, don't know if it's the right way, but the way that feels right to me is we present it all together. I have a hard time compartmentalizing and being like, okay, I know the materials, but I don't know these little details. And that for me, I just have to see it all as a whole vision. So if I start thinking about the finishes and those, then I immediately I'm drawn to something else and it could be something that's really minor that inspires everything else. So I try not to start one place. I just kind of see where it evolves. But as far as the presentation, it's usually as much as we could possibly give. And sometimes it requires some additional, you know, brainstorming and building and saying, we know we want this kind of detail on this casework. And we know we want it to look like this, but we still have to outfit it with all of your, you know, requirements for your menu sizes and for the size of your cups and whatnot. It's very fun to try to just like probably overwhelming also, but throw it all out there for them at once and then take apart what we need to. But I will say this, something we've started doing and I really am proud of is we provide renderings, but we don't put any of the color in. This is like, I don't know if this is helpful to other designers or not, but I feel like sometimes they take the renderings to, I guess they look at it. First of all, it's a computer and depending on your screen, colors show differently, textures don't show right. And we do have very lifelike renderings nowadays. I feel like you can get, but I find the most success with showing them the space, with the shapes, with the angles, with, you know, the flow of how the space is going to work and then all the colors and everything is in the materials in front of them. far as like your finished plan, your design plan, your samples, it's too overwhelming sometimes to be like, this is your end result and this is how we get there. It's more like, this is how we get there and this is the next step to your end result. So you can visualize it, but you don't take it too literally. Does that make sense? AC: Yeah, no, that totally makes sense. That's brilliant. I've never heard someone doing it that way, but it completely makes sense. People can hyper fixate on this one color of this one finish. And even with the best rendering artists, it's still not going to accurately articulate what the end space is going to feel like. So I think that that is a genius, simple pivot someone can make if they're struggling to get that buy-in or they're getting pushed back for Why did this lamp end up looking differently? You're like, what is, you know, I'm looking at this and it doesn't match up perfectly. What would you say are the three largest differences in process between hospitality, commercial projects, and a residential one? AJ: Yeah, so I thought about this a lot. I think the simplest answer is your audience, right? Just appealing to one person versus the collective and a larger crowd and who knows how many people will enter in that space. So I think trying to be inviting, but in a very comprehensive, overly comprehensive way, like what is inviting to us as humans, just getting that innate. And then I think, I guess scale and collaboration, having to deal with just your, you know, a couple who's living in a home with children or an individual who's living alone versus dealing with the collaboration, which you were talking about earlier, which is involving so many more parties. So I think that's the other big difference is that you really are, despite having a, like maybe one particular client, you really are having to deal and please a lot more parties. And then I think the less exciting part is probably all the code and all the permitted drawings and the building codes and what's required as far as this or that and how many inches you need between this table and this table and just making sure all of that is in line. So we didn't have to play that balance. We can't pretend like that's not there. AC: When I was talking to your team, you know, preparing for this episode, they had mentioned just your obsessive attention to detail. Can you share an example of a small design moment in a hospitality space that has had a really huge impact on the overall guest experience? AJ: Yeah, I love this question. And it's really challenging to me to articulate, but I will try my best. I guess I want to start by saying, I think that we've become too, I believe we've become too comfortable with the bare minimum. I think that there's a lot of times we're not asking for more, wanting more, and that we see like a sort of design space and like, whoa, this is amazing. And it's just because we've just dumbed down our senses so much as a society. We don't read as much, we don't look at art as much, we don't conversate as much, we don't sing as much. You know, people used to gather and have dinners and they would break out in song and now we're all too scared to even invite people into our homes because we're like, it's not perfect and I only have paper plates and like we just, we are shying away from exposing ourselves in that way. So I think that the first thing is trying to bring all that back and become more in tune with it in our commercial spaces. Like we've lost the ornate carvings, all the natural materials, all the details are gone and we're just kind of throwing up boxes and putting a paint color and calling it a day. So I think that when that's impressive to us, it's not our fault. I think that's just the way that we've become accustomed as a society and culture. And I think that when we connect with the space that makes us feel a little bit more, it can almost be a little disconcerting and kind of make you feel uncomfortable being that vulnerable with your feelings in a space. But that kind of leads me to the moment you were asking for. And this one sticks with me. It was a bar that we did. It's called the Holy Grail. It's a beautiful, well-loved establishment. But during COVID, the owner was like, I really want to change the feel in here. And it was a church at one time it didn't have a lot of existing architecture that made it interesting. So it was an element of like, let's add some age to it. Let's tie in more of these religious aspects. Everything is tied in in they're branding. They're really wonderful about storytelling that way, but the space didn't give that off at all. So we added, you know, lime wash walls, used concrete and stained it green and made it look like old stone and then added this beautiful backdrop to their beer taps. And then above that, I was like, we have to do this gallery wall. And it was just a bunch of different whimsical things from different religious artifacts, you know, found vintage shopping, carved crosses, hand painted, you know, religious imagery, like an old stole, priest stole from France that we hung up an old, so whether or not you tie in with something spiritual, all of these artifacts kind of thrown up together, make you walk in and you just kind of observe and you're like overwhelmed by it, I think. And I've had people relay this to me before where they were like, I don't even know what to think because I'm not a religious person, but it, made them feel something. And I'd rather someone walk in and feel like, Whoa, what is it about this? And you don't have to, again, you don't have to be spiritual to find it beautiful or find it interesting or make you feel something. And think that's the idea is that you walk in and go, Whoa, this is really different, really neat. I haven't observed anything like this before. I've never seen this paired with that. I've never been in a space that's older than this and this space makes me feel really old. And I don't mean like an age. I mean, it's like you're walking back in time. So creating that experience. And I don't know. I think that that is something I'm very proud of. And I still look at the images and I'm totally touched by it. And I think it even relays itself through imagery. But to make that happen, we had to appeal to all the senses and tried to make it really unique. And we have candlelight and different colors and I don't know. I think beyond that, then it's like, does the client take care of it? And are they, you know, really proud of it? And when they are and the staff is, you can return to that establishment and be like, whoa, they really kept it up. And that is one space that I always feel that way. I'm always excited to go back and see how it's evolved and grown and only gotten better, not been like diminished in some way. AC: I can't wait to go back and look at the pictures of this after hearing you talk about it. So I'll make sure that it's linked in the show notes. But what do you think is a frequently overlooked design element in hospitality spaces that you believe can make a big emotional impression? I know you gave lots of examples of like how you've done it specifically, but is there like a simple one when you're like, don't forget the soap dispensers, the way that you get your soap, you know, like what are some things like that that are easy for someone to start to focus on? AJ: I love that. Yeah. Trash cans, soap dispensers, your handicap signs, and any of your wayfinding. Like those little details are very often overlooked. I think that sensory cues, and I'm going to, sorry, keep harping on this. I do think that's also underutilized. It's subtle. It's hard to photograph. So maybe it's not as important to people, but I think it makes the space more immersive and memorable. So sound, texture, lighting, scent. I don't know why more people don't use scents in their spaces. And that's not something like we necessarily provide as a designer, but it's something we can talk about and help them develop. But you know you walk into a hotel and they usually have those signature scents. I think a lot of our spaces should feel that way. And if it's a food space, then it might be scent from the food that you're making. You don't need that. But I think that's very underutilized. I think that your flow and pace that you set around the room is, and it makes people feel like they can take a moment to pause and look around. And that's very underutilized. We talk about traffic flow a lot in commercial boutique spaces, but it's sometimes we don't think about like slowing things down and it's more about like speeding things up. And so I definitely want to, and that's why where it comes into like the Instagrammable moments, like I really don't love that. I think the whole space should make you slow down and take a pause. I think that's, you set that with all of those kind of indescribable things that we don't consciously notice, but you feel it. And that kind of happens the moment you walk into the space. Those are, can be very powerful elements. AC: So interesting. I feel like the more you describe your process and just your ethos, it feels like you're pretty actively fighting what the standard is or what the obvious choices are. Like even just talking about how when you're talking about traffic flow, you need it to be quick. You need the staff to be able to get through from table to table quickly. You need people to be able to get to the bar quickly and everything I'm hearing from you is just like, actually, how do we slow that down and how do we cause people to linger longer? AJ: I know you're absolutely right. And I only go on and on about it because I really feel very strongly about it. I'm not trying to harp on people or make them feel guilty for what they haven't provided. I just think that I feel that when I enter in spaces and I really notice it when I don't. So I just feel like we have a duty as designers to provide that kind of safe space for people. And we can't rely on all business owners to know how to do that. They've got a lot on their plate you know, and so that's why they hire us. And I do hope that it makes a difference long after the beauty of the space is gone, but it's more about how it's lived in and treated and people can hopefully go for many, many years. AC: Let's talk about legacy and longevity on that note. You speak beautifully about creating spaces that grow and evolve over time. And you even mentioned, like, I love to go back and see, how the owners have maintained it, but also how it's grown. What does that look like in practice, especially from, a hospitality standpoint? Like, what is your goal for a business owner to do with the space after you've left? Like, are you hoping that they you know, replace those vintage chairs with something they find on their travels or are hoping to walk away and this place is perfect that just needs to be maintained for years to come? AJ: I will admit, I don't think I ever leave a project and think it's perfect. I always leave like wanting more and wishing we could have gone there or there's just a little bit of me that's never fully content. So that's something I probably should talk about with a therapist but in the meantime, I expect spaces to change. I think that we do with people, we grow over time. My studio is a great example. Like we have developed this beautiful environment, but I'm constantly like, shifting things around. We're thinking about, know, this isn't functioning the way we thought, but I have a better idea. We've traveled to these new places, so I want to add these really cool mementos and knickknacks that we've gotten and find a place for them. And I imagine that business owners should do the same. Like, you know, for providing a gallery for them, feel free to add to the gallery wall. I want to see that your plants are thriving and you've decided, oh my gosh, I'm going to add more plants so it's even richer than it was before. That you're you know, your surfaces are used and worn, but in a beautiful way. Your wood floors now have like, know, nicks in them and scratches, which to so many business owners are like the biggest nightmare. But to me, it's like, okay, you're living in it. You're loving it. It's growing. And, you know, obviously the best thing is when the space expands and they add on and they can have more people inhabit it. Speaker 1 (57:37.006) I'm totally fine with it evolving. expect that. What would make me sad is if it's like, oh, where did all the pillows go? Where did all the soft furnishings go? Why is all the artwork down? It's the things that kind of made it special and personal removed and it's become a sterile kind of shell. And that happens. It's definitely happened to us. And we've had clients when we try to add in those last pieces, they're like, no, I don't want to take care of that, that, and that. And then we go to other spaces where those pillows are fluffed and you're like, way to go. And you know, their staff is really like taking care of it and appreciating it and the plants are thriving. And it's like, those are really exciting moments for me as a designer. And I definitely want to like pat them on the back for that. AC: What advice, I know we're close to time, so I want to make sure and get these last few questions in, but what advice would you give to designers who want to transition or add boutique hospitality work into their portfolio, but they just aren't really sure where to start? AJ: I think, you know, you can use your existing portfolio spaces. You know, perhaps you do a lot of bedrooms and bathrooms. Those can translate to, you know, boutique hotels or Airbnb's spaces like that. I, so I do think try to use your existing residential work and see how that plays in that direction. I also think you need to just like trust your gut, you know, find clients who believe the same as you reach out to people, you know, who own businesses. I am a big proponent of doing some work for free sometimes, which I know would freak out a lot of other people. But I didn't get here without doing favors and trades and swaps. But that just gave me so much more experience. And you can't even put value on that. So I do think don't be afraid to reach out to someone you know who owns a business, who's looking for refresh and offer your services at a discount or a trade. Like, I think that's a great opportunity to get your... And then like you said, stuff gets seen. And who knows what that will lead to. So it's usually worth the effort. AC: Are there any like dream clients or types of spaces that you haven't gotten to work on yet that you would love to? AJ: Always. I mean, I think any sort of space that inspires nostalgia. So I love the idea of like old ice cream shops and libraries and places that people have vivid memories of that we can recreate that kind of tie them back to another time. That's always exciting to me. I love the idea of hotel spaces just because I think there's so much in that it's like a 24 hour a day design, if that makes any sense, you know, where restaurants is like, open at this time, you close this time or bars. So I'd love the idea of thinking of the whole 24 hour clock and doing a really experiential boutique hotel. We work on parts like that, but we've not taken on an entire one. And I think that feels like a very exciting challenge. I don't know, movie sets. I brought that up earlier. I think that are so fascinating and movie set design talk about having to create an impact with emotion. It's like you have this one shot or this one angle and you have to make it count. And I always stare at the screen and think, they started putting that knickknack with that shoe on the ground with that thing. It's just really, really cool. And I think would be exciting to try to implement that with the knowledge and skills that I have and see what that would take. I definitely think it'd be a challenge, but it excites me for sure. AC: What is something in your workflow or like in your mindset right now that's really helping you stay creatively grounded? AJ: I think it's, I don't want to get emotional. I think it's my team. I think it's the people that I've selected to work here with me that have gifted me their time and their attention. They, they care so much about our clients and what we represent and what, we're trying to do and change. And I, I couldn't do it without them. And I don't think I would do it without them. I think it's important to have people around you to keep you grounded and kind of keep you in check and remind you like, of course I'd love to make all this really beautiful, but don't forget that they need this to function and this or that way. So having that team around you, but then also having the same emotions and feelings about how they inhabit a space, how they live in a space. You know, we take it very seriously with our studio. People are coming in, our lights are set a certain way. We have our candles lit. We make sure we have refreshments and waters out. We want people to feel 100% as at home as possible. And I think that if you don't have that same mentality, it's hard to connect with because that's what we're trying to do in all of our projects. And maybe a little bit of education in that too for our clients. without the team, yeah, I just, I couldn't do it. So I'm really grateful for that. AC: I feel it so deeply, Amanda. I have the best team in the world for exactly what I'm doing and I feel that so much. And finally, as you know, I love to wrap up every show with any sort of top secret projects, launches, collaborations coming that you can share with us. AJ: Well, I think who we're super excited about is we are doing a bridal boutique in Chicago. And that's, we've never done a project there before. So that's already a new set for us. We do things outside of the state. We have done things further outside of Kentucky, but first time in Chicago. So it's a great city. It's an existing business where the owner is making it her own identity. She's bought it from another owner. And so this is like her opportunity to really like make it her own. And that feels like such a privilege for us. We're really excited about what direction that's going to go. We've never done a bridal boutique before, so we're learning a lot from that. And it's just feels like a very exciting learning thing. And we've been implementing a lot of our new design directions and our more sensory details into it. So it's also a little bit of a test tube with how far we're going to take this. And she's a really awesome, willing client. So that's been super exciting. I think beyond that, we have a lot of female clients that make us really proud to be working with and we really connect with. And they have the same meaning and intention behind their businesses. One woman is doing a bookstore coffee shop wine bar concept, which is incredible. And I love all the three things together because she's like, well, this is what I love, you know? And she's trying to create this space for other people to experience all those things together. It's like we get a lot of exciting opportunities with a lot of our female clients. I'm always like realizing, maybe that's who we connect with. But if anybody connects with the emotional sensory stuff, then that's some project we want to work with. But I would say that's probably top of the list right now. AC: That all sounds amazing. It's like every rom-com that ever existed put into like a portfolio. Right. know. I have a sister-in-law who based in Chicago and we are planning her wedding right now. So I can't wait to go see the space you're working on and follow along. AJ: That's incredible. Well, hopefully it'll be done. We're talking about this fall. So I don't know where that lines up, but yeah. AC: Yes, have till next late spring. AJ: Good. Okay, great. We'll have to send you the info. AC: Well, Amanda, this has been absolutely sensational in every meaning of the word. So thank you so much for your time. I am constantly cheering you on and I am grateful for the work that you are doing that we all get to experience every day. AJ: I appreciate that. And I do have to say, I really enjoy your podcast. There's been some really great episodes that have kind of helped me out in different facets and details. And I just think like, keep pushing and getting all that content out because we do really appreciate it. We need it. And I hope that we get more going with the commercial boutique stuff. I, I desire it. I want to hear more from other designers in my position and, and learn from them as well. AC: Well, those are my marching orders. I'm on it. I will start reaching out to more boutique hospitality designers. Thank you so much, Amanda. We will catch up because I will be emailing you for details about that project in Chicago. AJ: Alright, thanks so much. AC: For more in-depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples, and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or at patreon.com/theInteriorCollective. Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Kwin Made. Your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible. And the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible. Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is The Interior Collective a podcast for the business of beautiful living.