[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host, Anastasia Casey, and today I am joined by someone whose work has stopped me in my scroll more times than I can count, Karen Richter, the co founder and creative director behind the New York based design studio White Arrow. Known for her background as a commercial illustrator and painter, Karen brings a singular perspective to interiors, one that's rooted in narrative, color theory and the emotional composition of a space.
In a design world where maximalist color trends are certainly everywhere right now, Karen's.
[00:00:35] Speaker C: Work stands out for its methodical restraint.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Her use of color feels both intentional and expressive, never overwhelming, but always quite artful. In this conversation, we unpack how Karen's background in the fine arts informs everything from material selection to custom furniture design, how she thinks about color as a strategic tool, and why artwork plays such an essential role in her process.
For all of you listening who want to bring more color into your designs without going full color drenching, this one is for you.
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[00:01:45] Speaker B: If you've been listening to the Interior.
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Collective for a while, you probably have.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Heard all kinds of software recommendations and maybe even tried a few. But if your system still feels kind of all over the place, I totally get it. That's exactly what why I wanted to share Materio that's M A T E R I O. It's an all in one platform built just for interior designers from concept to install and everything in between. You can try it for
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Hello Karen and welcome to the Interior Collective. I am so excited to have you here today because this episode is a little different. Typically we keep things pretty straight, straightforward, hard and fast business questions. And after doing a little research into you and your background, I'm actually really excited that we're going to talk a little bit more design inspiration, color theory, more of the creative side of things. So I'm super honored to have you on the show.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for having me. And I'm also really excited to talk about art and design. It's been a passion of mine since I was a little kid. So here we are.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Well, let's go ahead and actually talk about your background a little bit. I always like to start by kind of grounding our audience who's listening into the structure of your business business so we can get these business questions out of the way. Can you share how White Arrow is set up today, who's on your team and kind of what your day to day role looks like within that studio?
[00:03:08] Speaker A: So we have a small studio in New York City. Our team has fluctuated between four and seven employees over the years and we're actually looking to hire two new employees. And I'm the principal designer and I handle the top level creative work, all the presentations, client facing work. I do the majority of the sourcing, the styling, the installs. And I. I also work with my husband Thomas. And funny enough, we actually had the same last name before we got married. So we had two Richters. And he's on the business development side and he also shoots all of our projects. So I'll be working as the creative director during those and then I'll be the prop stylist. And in house, we have a junior designer and a senior designer and they work more on the architectural drafting, the schedules, Biza documents, visualizations. They'll help us sourcing site visits. I mean, we all do a little bit of everything because it's such a small team, but you know, we've kind of delegated in that way and it seems to work for us. And we used to handle purchasing in house, but now we're looking to hire a procurement company to just help streamline things.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Oh, great. Well, I love that you guys had the same last name. That just like saves so many name change. I know, trips to the DMV and whatnot.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: It was really ridiculous. And all these people that I grew up with were like, oh, it's so progressive. He took your last name. I'm like, well.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: But yeah, that's so funny. Okay, well, that sounds amazing. I actually am interested and I'll ask you more questions about looking to outsource your procurement to a procurement company. Because I think that there's a good number of us listening who are like, that sounds fantastic.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: I know, it's so time consuming. I'd love us to focus more on the creative and less on the logistics. So.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, okay, let's talk about your technical education, what were you studying, what were you doing? And then how did you get here?
[00:05:01] Speaker A: So growing up, I always was doing art and design. I had a zine in high school. I was always collaging.
And I went to art school first at Parsons the New School for Design for Graphic Design, and then later illustration. And I would do summer Programs at Central St. Martin's and Rhode Island School of Design. So like, very much like in that world for a long time.
And while in school, I started doing a lot of commercial illustrations and painting. I was in a bunch of art shows and I ended up being the creative director of a clothing line. It was like, you know, the clothing was like sold at like Urban Outfitters and stuff like that. And then I put out signature products for, you know, brands like Sephora or Vans. And I would do like music videos and a lot of ad campaigns. So for around a decade I was like deeply involved in commercial illustration. And while I was working, I sort of felt like I didn't need to be going to art school anymore. And so I ended up transferring to Columbia and majored in art history there. And that's where I graduated. And you know, over the years of doing illustration, I, I kind of started to evolve my work to enter more into the 3D space. I was doing prop styling and set design. I was, you know, painting seamless backdrops or murals or, you know, making props. And I also kind of felt that my apartment was a sort of work workshop or laboratory. And I, I painted like, you know, red, orange and yellow racing stripes in my bedroom. And it was very mod and I was very mod. And the whole thing was like this, this very immersive environment.
And that started this opportunity. Like, friends would come over, they'd see it, they'd love it, and they'd be like, can you help me? And so that was just like a hobby of mine on the side. While working as an artist, I would just, you know, get into the thick of it and you know, paint my friends cabinets and their walls and like source everything. And it was just like so fun for me. But I never really thought of it as a career at first. It was really just in just like a hobby while I was doing the other thing. And I ended up meeting Thomas in Berlin and I opened, I had a pop up shop with a friend named Gabe Kuo called Rats. And that pop up shop was all about like New York design. And you know, Rats were like, they're sort of like unofficial mascot of New York. So it was very much like Art and design and culture in Berlin. And during that process of, you know, creating this pop up shop, that was the first time Thomas and I properly collaborated. And he, he built the space in 3D for us and so we could really understand like where to place the furniture and how to kind of design the space. And the reason he was able to do that is because at the time I met him, he was working in visual effects and motion design. So he was really like a quick study and kind of understood this one software called Visual Effects. And he, he just really like brought the sort of ideas I had into a new realm of possibility. And so we started collaborating together and utilizing our, our sort of similar design backgrounds. And then we, we both kind of did a pivot together and started working together.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: That is such a fun, wild, creative route to get here. One thing that really stood out to me was as much like exploring and creative projects you were taking on, you also like you said you were going to school, but then you'd also do summer programs and you were also like really studying design as well, whatever medium that was. How did, as a creative, sometimes the school part can be hard or not, not as fun. And people just like want to start doing what. What drove you to like want to continue your education in all those different facets? Like what was it that you loved about school and do you feel like that really contribute, contributed to why you're able, why or how you're able to run your studio now and you know, even in a completely different medium, was it a really vital part of your career now?
[00:09:05] Speaker A: I, I really just love learning and kind of figuring out new ideas or new techniques or you know, in the case of Columbia, like really learning how to write and also have to give presentations with, in front of an audience that might be quite intimidating. So I think if art school was all about, you know, crits and learning, you know, how to draw or how to paint or you know, proportion or balance or color theory. Like Columbia was a little bit more on the academic side, which now I feel a lot more balanced. But even when I'm not in school, I'm always, I'm a very curious person and I love going to art shows or galleries or museums or house tours or, or whatever it is. Like, I feel like I'm always moving and always trying to just gather inspiration wherever I can.
And I think that Parsons was really good at teaching students how to get work and to be part of the design community and to get their work in front of like an art director, an audience and Be really open about it and interested in sharing.
And so I definitely used that experience for the other work that I did down the line. And I think that even though I did a career pivot, all of those sort of classes and experiences working and learning about how to pitch an idea or how to propose something or to speak to a client, I think it all kind of came together in the end. So it's all in education, really.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. What a.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: What a beautiful story.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: So I want to talk about you and Thomas a little bit. What a sweet, romantic, creative like rom com of, of meeting and collaboration you have together. I'm curious, in today's world, like in today's studio, who takes rank when making business decisions? I feel like there's a lot of people who are interested in working with their partners or, you know, bringing their, their spouse or partner onto their team.
And especially when you're your co founders and you're technically like in an org chart equals, there still has to be someone who, when you aren't seeing eye to eye, is the executor. As far as the decision making. How, how have you kind of established that? Is it an ever evolving thing or does it really kind of happen naturally?
[00:11:33] Speaker A: I mean, Thomas is more on the business and operations side. You know, contracts, billing, technology, helping with our workflow. I often joke because he's German, he's like very well versed in efficiency and getting things done. And I'm more on the creative and client facing side. So I think it's the decision making happens depending on what area of the company you're talking about. Right. So if it's more about like how is the home supposed to look and what are the colors and materials and all this sort of, you know, creative side, that, that would be me. And then if it's more about like how we're going to like, you know, refine our billing or what software to bring in or, or are we hiring or not? Like that's Thomas. So I think over the years we've evolved and in the beginning we were kind of both doing everything together and then we sort of, kind of divided and conquered based on our strengths. And so now we have sort of like our own lanes. Although that, that's to say that Thomas is still like very much involved in like when we're talking about like lighting or, or massing or how a space kind of flows. Because of his experience working in the 3D space, I think he just has like an innate sense of, of how, how a space should feel from like all angles and so I often will, like, talk through a lot of the more architectural side stuff with him, but business wise, I often defer to him.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: That is so nice that there's a clear, A clear break point as to.
To which category.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: I mean, it's not a perfect system, but, you know, we, we try.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Before we start getting into the beautiful, amazing, creative type questions, I do always like to ask, how are you guys charging? Is it hourly, flat rate, or combination? It's just always so helpful to hear from people in different markets how they're handling that.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, over the span of 10 years of, like, logging every hour internally, we've really created this database that Thomas will use when estimating a project. And that's sort of based on the scope of work, the square footage the project needs, the potential furniture spend, all that stuff. And then we will give the client a flat rate based on the assumed hours. And that flat rate entails a discovery meeting, a mood board presentation, and all the sort of subsequent interior architecture furnishing, art and accessory design proposals. And then we also charge the typical cost plus markup model, you know, like net with 30 and. And then a reasonable hourly fee for coordinating and site visits. And then we also have like, an assumed cost for logistics that we, we always were talking with the client about in the beginning, like, oh, it's going to cost this to ship it and store it and all that. And the reason we're doing the flat rate for those design parts of the project is because it gives us the freedom and the flexibility to sort of internally determine the number of hours we want to spend on research and development.
I just didn't want the clients to be surprised by the number of hours.
So we try to estimate it from the very beginning and then, like, have that conversation early on, and then if they're on board, you know, we're good to go. But in the beginning, we used to charge hourly and then we would charge retail. But over the years, it's evolved into something else.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned that you'd have a conversation about the assumed cost when it comes to, like, the logistics side of things. Is that usually, like a percentage that you're giving them that you're okay, great. That's a percentage. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. That was super clear and helpful. Okay, so you told us a little bit about how you transitioned from commercial illustration and painting into interior design by helping friends in their apartments in the city and painting walls and furniture. How. How did you transform that into the world of interiors? Like, when you look back on your background. What are you thinking as you're looking at a space to bring that commercial illustration and painting background into an interior?
[00:15:39] Speaker A: I mean, I always think of these spaces as like, almost like these immersive, artful environments. Like what? Because also because we photograph them at the very end of a project, it does feel like a work of art that you get to live in and that you get to see from all angles. And, you know, I'm always thinking about color and proportion and balance and texture, similar to like the art I was doing where I would, you know, bring in pattern and, and, you know, maybe there would be a sense of place or a person in a, in a scene or whatever. I, I still feel that there's that same attention to composition and storytelling that goes into these interiors that we're designing one.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: And I feel like I need to give a little preface for people who do not know.
White arrows portfolio, just like off the top of their head. We're going to talk about color a lot in this episode. And I. And I think what's important to understand is we're not looking at rooms filled with color or color drenched. When we're looking at your portfolio and I'll have it linked in the show notes, I really encourage you to give them a follow. We're talking about a really methodical restraint when it comes to using color. Can you walk us through how you decide where and when and how to use color in a space? Because it is so clearly your signature that I just don't feel a lot of other studios have mastered in the way that you have.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Well, that is very nice of you to say. I really appreciate it. I mean, I do love a color drenched environment where, like, the colors on the ceilings and wall and all the trim. But I do also love where color can be, you know, a main character and then there's supporting characters or, or color can be a vehicle for your eye to travel. You know, maybe there's like a red chair at the end of the hallway and your eye gets drawn to it. I think that you can utilize color as a way of, you know, bringing in other eras. You know, for example, I had a project where I was referencing the Bauhaus, and I was looking at a lot of Bauhaus kitchens and 1930s color palettes and then, you know, doing a more contemporary design, but like, directly referencing these, like, sort of very distinctly 1930s colors. Or I'll look at contemporary fashion, you know, maybe something by Bottega Veneta and like, oh, how did they Use this, like, pale blue and in conjunction with this, like, little bit of red, you know, like. So it's often about color, as, you know, in pairings, like, the combination of colors, or it's about, you know, using one color and then there's, like, one other little color that appears, and then it becomes like a leitmotif. Maybe it'll appear in other rooms, and it will kind of cohesively tie that whole story together. I just often am trying to figure out ways to. To let your eye travel. And I think, you know, color and pattern and material, all those things, they're very much in service of that.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: When I look at your work, I. I cannot help but feel like I am looking at a painting that someone has put together and so thoughtfully selected. This is where the pop of color is. And your eye then moves to the secondary pop of color and travels throughout each of those images.
When you are building a color palette that feels so rich and expressive, how do you. Do you feel like you ever get to the point where you're like, I have to scale this back, or are you usually thinking, where else can I add this color in?
[00:19:05] Speaker A: I mean, I. I had a project just recently where I realized I was using the same one shade of green multiple times, and then I was like, oh, oops. And then I. I change. I did a little bit of a course correction, but I still use that green maybe as a secondary color somewhere else, but I didn't have, like, three rooms with, like, dark green walls because it would just look kind of insane. So I. I do think there's, like, usually these overarching colors that we'll use. Maybe it's in support of the vibe we're after. Maybe it's a country home, and we're using ochre and, like, a more subdued green and a cream. You know, things that are connected to the, like, natural landscape. But. But I won't. I won't do everything all at once, right? Like, I'll. I'll choose some key players, and then I'll find ways to weave them in, but it's not. It's. It's. You know, some environments are supposed to be more, you know, soothing and relaxing, and some environments are supposed to be more invigorating or, you know, bold and. And you. You can pick the colors that tell that story because there is. There is an emotional connection to them. And how you feel in a space when you're, you know, surrounded by a color is quite different than when you're in a space that's more Like a gallery environment, and you have, like, these really bold, saturated colors appearing in the furniture or the artwork on the walls.
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Do you see color as something that should reflect the client's personality specifically, or do you think it's really a part of, like, the architectural language of the home? I know you mentioned, like, you're looking to what the setting is, like, what does nature look like around it? How much of it is a client telling you, I love purple. Like, we're going purple, and how much of it is you guiding the client?
[00:21:45] Speaker A: I think it's a bit of both. Right? Like, we're always thinking about the cardinal directions of the rooms. Like, is it north facing, is it south facing? Can we, can we dial in the color based on, like, how that room is feeling? Is it an evening space or a morning space?
Or is it a historic home that's supposed to feel like a British countryside retreat or something? You know, like, so you're picking colors that are going to be in support of the architecture, but, you know, at the same. On the other hand, you're also figuring out, who is this client? What do they love? How do. What, what's their closet filled with? Like, do they have lots of bold, saturated colors that they're surrounding themselves with or wearing or, or, or florals or zany prints, whatever? I, I think that you're still, you're pulling out their ideas and you're, you're kind of cohesively marrying them with your ideas? And then also how, how can you tell the story of that space itself? So I think, I think it's all, it's all of them.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: You know, you just mentioned something that I think is so interesting, you know, like, what's in their closet? What is it that they're wearing, because I feel if I was your client, even just a few years ago, before I really started to, like, take a look at my own personal style and what that means, I wouldn't have associated the things that I like to put on my body as needing, as aligning with what I want to see sit in. In a space. And so what is your, like, practice or exercises that you take with a client to help them see that maybe there is more of, like, a through line between those or how you can make a space that feels as fun and exciting as what their wardrobe might be, or vice versa. Maybe they say that they want something really bold, but they actually wear really neutrals all the time.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: How.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: How do you guide a client that doesn't necessarily see the connection between the two?
[00:23:41] Speaker A: I mean, I have this long discovery call where I'm trying to, like, tease out who they are and what they like and what they, you know, maybe points of reference, like places they've traveled or movies they like, or artists they like, living or dead. You know, I'm just really trying to understand things that I can weave into the home and take inspiration from, because I think a lot of the clients maybe would come to the table and wanting, like, a gray sofa and white wal. And they. But they know. Or maybe that's what they would buy for themselves because they would be scared. But they come to us because they want us to push them a little bit out of their comfort zone. I mean, with confidence, right? Like, giving them the tools to understand why it's going to work. But. But I'm trying to figure out, you know, what they want, and then maybe, like, you know, amplify it a bit. And, you know, and then we're. We're always, like, visualizing a lot. And. And I think that that also gives them confidence to. To make some decisions that might be a little uncomfortable. So, yeah, I will ask them, you know, what. What are you wearing? Where, you know, what restaurants do you like? All those kind of questions. But then when it comes to the end of it, I've visualized the whole space in 3D. And so then I might have some outlier ideas in there. Maybe it's something they hadn't thought of or told me, but I'm like, but. But also this. You know, how do you feel about this?
And. And usually nine times out of 10, they. They kind of sign on because they understand how it all works together.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: And yeah, during that discovery process, a. Do you have, like, an internal list that you keep for those questions about inspiration? In places, or do you just kind of have it, like, internalized? And so it's a very fluid conversation. Is there, like, a formal onboarding conversation, or is it more like a hangout?
[00:25:29] Speaker A: It is a formal. It is a formal conversation. Cause I'm taking notes, and I want to make sure that I didn't miss anything. And then, you know, I'll. I'll add in questions over the years just because I, you know, a past project will have taught me, like, oh, I should have asked this. Like, oh, do they have a pet or who's going to be staying in the house? Or do they have plans for, you know, being in this house for five years or ten years or whatever? Like, there's. There's a lot of things to learn about who these. Who these clients are. But I also have tried to evolve the sort of questions I ask them about the aesthetic component, because I do think that it makes me a better designer if I have as much kind of intel as possible.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect. How about for designers who are nervous about working with or are nervous about presenting more bold colors, but they want to break out of, like, entirely neutral palettes? For instance, they have kind of built a portfolio of more neutral palettes, more earth tones, more subdued color ranges, but they're really ready to start experimenting with that. But it gets tricky because people have come to them because their portfolio looks a certain way. How do you advise that they get to start incorporating a little bit of color into their projects so that it feels like a. I don't wanna say seamless, but a smoother transition to what could be the next evolution of their designs?
[00:26:56] Speaker A: I mean, for. For me, when I'm. I'm trying to. I'm always trying to do something I haven't done before with our projects. And I don't want all of our. I don't want our projects to all kind of seem. One note. Or that we always do the same thing.
So that's part of why we do a lot of visualizing and collaging so that we can show the client something that we haven't done before, like maybe a certain color combination or a type of furniture or maybe a design reference. So I think that if you can figure out a way to visually communicate to your client about something new, then they'll be more confident in you taking this bold step forward. But also, you know, I. I do a lot of, you know, a mix of digital visualizing and then physical, you know, visualizing. So we'll use Samplies or we'll, you know, Use the pin boards and trays and, and try to understand how things are in real life. And, and you know, maybe you bring your client to a space that has the sort of vibe that you're after, where there is something maybe a little bit left of center or more innovative happening. So I think that people want to be pushed and like, they want to sign on or, you know, they want to work with you for a reason.
And it's your goal to kind of shepherd that project and give them some new ideas. So I think in all instances, you're evolving and just trying to get them to understand where you're going.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Karen, you just said something that sounded super fun. You say you do a lot of visualizing and collaging. What exactly does collaging mean to you when it comes to your inspiration or design presentations?
[00:28:31] Speaker A: I mean, when we first started, the collaging was much more abstracted. It was more of, more of a piggybacking on my illustration era. But now it's, we do build the space in 3D and then we'll collage the different items to scale. So if there's a light or there's a bed, those are to scale in the scene. But also if there's a wallpaper, we've, we've, you know, applied it on all walls. If there's a color, there's like on a trim, you'll see it on all the trim. So everything is really to scale and, and quite easily understandable, especially for a lot of our clients who don't have a creative or artistic background. So they really understand, you know, that zany mural or that large scale painting, they're, they're going how big it is in relationship to all the other things. And also how that color or material or pattern is, is when it's, you know, throughout the home reappearing or, you know, when you see it multiplied on many surfaces. So I, I, I think that just gives them a lot of confidence. It's not really an abstract illustration style collage. It's, it's really, it's our version of a rendering. But, you know, we're using product photography and we're not going to 3D model all of those things. So we're using a lot of, you know, Photoshop actually.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah, perfect. Is there a point in your initial design process where you are doing things very tangibly? As I think back to your, your initial study was in graphic design and then you were doing commercial illustration. That's all super digital. But I know that there's lots of elements and lots of times when you're actually doing things physically first and then scanning them in, do.
What is your initial design concepting exploration like when you are getting your hands on it?
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Well, I, I recently, well, maybe not so recently, but in the last year or two I, I started going back to the libraries and so I went to Columbia's library, I went to Parsons library. I love looking at physical books and I think one of the things that's so fun about it is that you're, you're going on the bookshelf and you're not necessarily knowing what you're looking for. You're just pulling tons of things down from the stacks and flipping through the pages and you often like stumble upon ideas you hadn't thought about or like bringing in disparate ideas. So I think in terms of like it being physical, it's, you know, it's about looking at books and going into museums or galleries or art fairs or different shows and seeing the work in person and having that sense of discovery while you're, you know, going and looking at hundreds of images or you go to Salone and you're looking at tons of furniture or new combinations. I do draw and paint and collage and do physical art. Like for some of our projects I've actually done the work like I've designed the neons or I've done a mural or done art that we've framed. But by and large, when we're doing these presentations, aside from the sort of material boards and the, the trays and see these like really in depth mood board presentations, that's a little bit more on the digital side. But there is always these like, you know, physical references. Right. Because I've seen things in person or. Yeah.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: How do you approach layering color with materials like textiles or tile? Especially when you're designing custom pieces? I know you said that like you're, you're trying to never repeat something you've already done.
So how when you're designing something super custom, what does that creative process look like? And how, how do you articulate trying something totally new and being confident that that's what's going to be this super unique piece within a space?
[00:32:24] Speaker A: Well, at the onset of the project, when we're, when I'm creating these sort of mood board presentations, I've got a really clear theme or idea of what the home should feel like and the subsequent decisions are always in service of that. So like, let's say it's a modern take on Art deco that's going to stir like, steer certain decisions in a certain way. Maybe the. The sort of design language of those pieces or the colors or the patterns that I use. So I think just having a clear vision from the beginning helps, like subsequent ideas or. Or the sort of iterative process that takes place. Always have that goal in mind. And then, you know, when I'm pulling patterns or colors, I'd like to see them reappear several times. Maybe I'll use the numbers like three or five or. Or one and. And then figuring out ways to weave it in, like bringing in an accent color or a predominant color. Or maybe it's a saturated color that are on opposite. Saturated colors that are on opposite ends of the spectrum and, like, letting it vibrate a little bit. But I. I think that, you know, we're. We're always designing a lot of custom elements, like furniture, art, lighting, rugs, all those things. But they're. They're always in service of the. The greater design language that we've established at the onset of the project.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: One of the custom elements that I really noticed in your work that I think is so cool that we have to talk about is that when you have a case piece up against a wallpapered or colored wall, often there is a different wallpaper or painting or mural inside of the case piece or on the doors themselves. So there's like, this subtle layering of pattern and color that, at first glance, you don't notice until you're really looking at the details. Can you talk us through how you decide when and where to add that second layer of pattern?
[00:34:20] Speaker A: I mean, in some ways, this reminds me a lot of the creative process of painting or doing art, where you put everything together and then maybe you take something away or you add something, or you're kind of working at just getting it right, and it doesn't always happen right away. Right. You. You. Sometimes it's. It is a bit iterative, and maybe it's the flowers in the space or the painting on the wall that really helps it all come together.
But I do think there's something to be said about these subtle details that really bring your eye in and make you want to stay a while.
Yeah. We use this one Duval cabinet in a library, and it has these beautiful paintings on the back of the cupboard. So the ceramics that are inside really are set against it. But then if you study it, you're like, oh, wait, this is a real painting. I love this.
I think that, you know, if you have clients that are on board to, like, really go all the way, you can make something so beautiful and so special, and, you know, it's just lovely and that, you know, you know, these are like future heirlooms that they're going to live with. Yeah.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: As someone who just has such extensive design experience, I'm curious as to how, how are there still rooms that you decide, okay, this room's going to be totally neutral. Like, I'm not adding any color into this, and it's really just tonal. How do decide when that feels like the right time to do that?
[00:35:49] Speaker A: I mean, I've definitely had some clients that wanted a more calming tonal space, and I think it can be lovely if you're thinking about it in terms of varying your materials. Like, maybe there's reflectivity or there's irregularity, or you're having a lot of plants in nature, in the space, so. Or the views are incredible. Right. So it doesn't feel like just like a developer's blanket slate that you're just supposed to customize on your own. It actually feels quite intentional in the calmness. But I think that if you do have a neutral space, like, it's probably very important to bring in some, some tree or some plants, you know, so it just feels more alive. But that's, that's also me. I, I, I think, you know, maybe somebody else would approach it differently, but I think that's the way you make it not feel dead.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: I'm curious as to this kind of backtracking a little bit, and I apologize for that, Karen, but I'm thinking about your onboarding process and that you have about, like, their inspiration that's happened after someone has already engaged your studio and, like, there's a contract signed. And so I'm curious how, for the actual, like, inquiry process, how are you making sure that a client is a great fit for you? For instance, you said, you know, they might go pick out a gray sofa, and that's just because they're, they're nervous and don't really know how to pick something else, and that's why they're coming to you. Have you had an experience where someone really doesn't want what you are looking to create?
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I, I do think that now that we've been doing this for 10 years, we're getting clients that understand what our style, I guess our style is, and they're, they're approaching us because they like what we do. Right. So they're not just saying, like, oh, I heard you're a designer. Can you just design me this generic thing? Or can you Copy somebody like, that's, that's not our firm. But I think it also is important how people talk about their home. Like, are they thinking about it as a forever home? Do they really want something special that they're going to share with their friends and family or are they thinking it as a flip? You know, it's not. I don't think we're the right firm for somebody who's like super focused on, you know, ROI and like I'm going to live here three years and I'm going to flip it. You know, it's got to be like somebody who cares because I care.
And then it's like a great partnership where they're going to inspire me, I'm going to inspire them, and we're going to make something so beautiful together. But I think, you know, sometimes I'll ask them like, which projects of ours resonated with you and that could also tell a lot or just like start to get to know them and understand what they want to achieve and understand if we're the right firm for that. Also, it definitely depends on what are they willing to invest in their home. Right. Because I want to be able to stand by the items that we propose. And so we're, we're a firm that wants to use nicer things.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. How long does that courtship process take for you? And I know after a decade like it probably you have a better gut feeling of if it's going to be a good, a good partnership with a client or not. But in general, how many conversations are you having with a potential client before you get to the contract signing?
[00:38:54] Speaker A: I mean, it really actually depends on the client. I mean, we've had some clients where there's been a little bit of a song and dance and then maybe I'll take them to a completed project or they'll have, they'll call a reference or you know, or maybe it's a few calls to discuss budget. But there's been other clients where they want to work with us instantly. And so I think it's not really a one size fits all, but obviously I'd love it to be super easy and streamlined. But you know, if it's a, it's a, if it's a really big project, I can understand their hesitation. And these are multi year projects sometimes. So it is, it is as important for me to feel that they're a good fit as it is for them to feel that I'm, we're a good fit. So I understand the need to like be totally certain in Your decision making.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: In that initial courtship process. Are you and Thomas meeting them or is it usually Thomas who starts and then it gets to you or vice versa?
[00:39:48] Speaker A: No, it's usually me. I'm, I'm, I'm the, I'm sort of the public facing person at the firm. I, I'm also like a native English speaker, so I feel like I have a hometown advantage. So I, Yeah, it's usually me. And then if it, if it starts to be a question about the budget or, you know, the contracts, then he'll, he'll like pop in. But, yeah, I would say it's me.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Okay. I want to talk about art. You mentioned it a little bit and I want to dig in because you kind of like breezed right past it and I thought it was so cool. Artwork is obviously such like a huge part of your projects and just like your existence in general. It's one of the hardest things for a lot of designers to source, especially because it's just such a personal thing. How do you help your clients collect or invest in art that really feels meaningful if art selection is even part of the services you offer?
[00:40:44] Speaker A: Oh, it is definitely part of the services we offer. I mean, in the beginning, I did work with an art consultant and I definitely would in the future, but over the last, I don't know, five, I don't know, a lot, a lot of years I've been doing all of the sourcing and proposing. And I think, you know, we always have a conversation at the very beginning of the project that, you know, what, what are we going to invest in? The furniture and the lighting and the rugs and window coverings, but also that there is always money that they're going to invest in art and accessories. And so, you know, that conversation is happening at the beginning and, and so, and I'm always thinking about the art from the get go. Like we're putting either placeholder pieces in the rooms when we're collaging, or I actually have sourced specific pieces.
And you know, I like to use a mix of vintage or contemporary art. It all obviously depends on their investment or like, what they, how, how they want to think about art. And, you know, if I can understand like, what that artist practices or the materials or their story, I'll. I'll weave it into the, you know, overall, overall presentation. But there are sometimes where I just source like really cool vintage works at auction or, you know, even from Etsy, I, I'm not so discerning about, like, where it comes from. It's more about like, how does it. How does it work to tell the overall story? And there's been instances where I've gotten so invested in a piece for a client, and then they haven't signed off on it, and then I've bought it because I just. I fell so in love with it that I'm like, well, then if you don't have it, then I will have it.
But, yeah, I just think it's. It's super. Without the art, the spaces don't really ever feel finished to me. And so. And I think that, you know, we have finished some projects for clients, and then we're now working on a second space for them, and I think they now understand, like, oh, she was right. Like, it. We did need the art. We did need the accessories. It really does feel super cohesive and cozy, and it's, like, a joy to be in. So I'm always trying to explain, even if they don't have art yet, that they need to have it.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: So you did mention that there have been times that you have created artwork for clients. Can you tell us a little bit about that and give us an example or two?
[00:42:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely commissioned works before. I've commissioned weavings or ceramics or. There's been a number of things. But there was one project early on where I really want. There was, like, a super long hallway, and I really wanted something to allow your eye to travel and to, like, invigorate the space. And so I designed this custom neon that kind of traveled along the hallway in this sort of irregular, fun way. Other projects, I. I, you know, I've done paintings or collages. Granted, a lot of these were projects where the budgets were not where they should be. Like, I wasn't able to commission somebody who really did incredible work. And so I was like, well, I can do it. And I. And I certainly can. So I, you know, I. I would make the work to fill the space or use the right colors or materials, and they did look great. But I would much prefer that we can work with, like, a friend or a peer in the industry, and I can support their practice.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: You know, I was gonna say, I mean, I went to art school as well, and I was just thinking that you probably have an incredible network of awesome, amazing artists, both from back in school days and also just having lived in New York for so long.
Are. Is there an approach that you take? I'm sure it happens subconsciously or organically that you are, you know, hiring friends or sourcing from friends, people you personally know. Or is it usually a matter of, I, I have a piece in my head that I'm imagining and I'm going to find that specific piece no matter where it comes from.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: I think it's a mix. Like, I, I'll go to a lot of openings and if a friend is having a solo show or something, then maybe that work is in the back of my head when I finally am decorating a space. But then there are other instances where, you know, maybe it's a kid's room and we need like a triptych or, or a large scale diptych in the living room, you know, and then I'm like, oh, well, let's try to find like a series or, or two pieces that are complementary to each other. So it's funny to come from the arts and then think of art sometimes in service of the furniture, but I think it's also a balance, right? Like, like, I do want to support, like, art with a capital A. But also sometimes it's like, well, what do we need to fill the space and like, make it really, like, sing?
So I, it's, you know, and sometimes I don't even use proper art. Like, I've framed like a matchbook before or like some flowers. So I think it's really all about the overall feeling. And then maybe some spaces it's like the art is the hero, and in others it's more of a texture. So, you know, I mean, yeah, not, not everything is the hero at all times.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: You know, real quick, specific question. If you could give us like, a quick little Cliff Notes version of what it was like to work within our consultant of like, what someone could expect if they wanted to go that route. What did that look like?
[00:45:49] Speaker A: I mean, it might be very different for a different firm, but because we do so much visualizing, I had sent the art consultant our deck. Really, like, this is what the house looks like. These are the areas where I need art. This is the client's budget. I really like these things. I'm thinking about this. And then the art consultant came to the table with like, a few pieces that they felt were, you know, best for that space. And, and I thought, I thought she had great ideas. I, I really did. Unfortunately, the client didn't sign off on, on her ideas. But, but I loved the process. And I think maybe in some instances, separating art from interior design might be more successful because they have so much knowledge about, like, you know, what the market is doing and who that artist is, where that artist is showing next, or who's Collecting it. And for some people who think of art more as investment and less of like, feeling, maybe that would that art consultant could speak their language better than me. Because I'm usually thinking about art as like, on a gut level, like, oh, I like it, it's amazing. I love this person, I love their story. But an art consultant might have a little bit of a broader intel to, to share, you know.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: And in your experience, is that art consultant paid like on a fee basis plus a commission basis if the client buys something, or is that something that you are paying for? Like, is their service something you're paying for and obviously like line iteming in your own design services? But I'm just curious, is the client engaging them or is it like through you as a third party?
[00:47:25] Speaker A: I mean, I brought the art consultant when we used her, and she would have made her earnings through the sale of goods, similar to an art interior designer. But I think that some art consultants probably get paid hourly or. Because what if you spend a ton of time sourcing and then they don't buy anything that was time spent? So I think that they probably all have their different way of structuring how they work as a company. And I don't want to misspeak, but when I'm doing the art sourcing, it is so time consuming and sometimes they don't sign off on anything. And so then I'm like, oh, I really would like to locate this work. So I think, I think it really just depends, you know, on the, on the client and who the consultant is.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: So at the top of the show, you mentioned you guys are looking to onboard maybe two new team members as you're going to do. So how do you train or mentor those junior designers? Or even if you're hiring, I don't think you specified like, what exact roles, but how, how are you training or mentoring them to really understand your specific approach to restraint and composition with such energy in each of your projects?
[00:48:32] Speaker A: I mean, I, I think that it's a long, a long game, right? I, I think training your eye is a long process and, you know, I'm very curious about what's going on in the contemporary world. I'm also really curious about what came before.
So I think through, you know, referencing, you know, designers like, oh, you should take a look at this, or we're going to reference this. Can you, can you source these things? You know, that's a way of learning a lot about what's going on. But then, you know, when we're working on the projects and we are looking at a composition. I will tell. I will explain to the team, like, why I chose something, like why I chose an idea or a color or a vendor, and often, you know, refer back to the project's ultimate goals. You know, you know, the client really loves the color red and she has a dog and we need to do this and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, so, like, there's, like, you know, design ideas, but then there's also practical ideas. And my goal is to try to marry those two. And anyone who's working on our team, I'm trying to give them the thinking behind the results.
And. And I hope just over the years that they. They kind of. They kind of get it. But I. I think it. It's. It's very. You gotta be in the weeds, I think, to. To figure it out.
[00:49:50] Speaker B: Absolutely. And because you are still doing the majority of your sourcing, I don't think that for your studio, it's as imperative that someone comes in with that exact eye. Not that you don't want new ideas, but, like, they're doing a lot of the technical side of the. The design for you. I am curious, for those who are listening who want to start incorporating projects, what would you say are, like, three practical ways to start? Whether that's, you know, bring color in via lighting or bring color in via X, Y and Z, or stick to the trim. Do you have any ideas that someone could start to experiment with to bring more color into their projects?
[00:50:31] Speaker A: I mean, the obvious first one would be paint, right? Like, when I was first starting, I'd paint, you know, know, picture frames and cabinetry and walls and murals and furniture. I would just use paint in service of any. Anything that was possible. And. And, you know, thinking of ways to maybe use a color in a fun, playful way and, you know, using a really cool saturated paint. Maybe it's like fine paints of Europe or Farrow and Ball, or there's some brands out of Germany that do really saturated, fun paint too. But that can be a great way of just being very playful about it, and it's very cost effective. I also think that using flowers or nature as a pop of color is great. In all of our interiors that we shoot, we're always thinking about, like, the colors of the flowers. Maybe it's a single arrangement and it's all in one color or a tree or different natural elements that we can bring into a space. I think if you can invest in branches or stuff from your garden, like, it's a great way to add drama and color. And you can switch it out with the season. So it's like also, again, very low cost, low stakes. And then, you know, if you can bring in artwork, that's like a great way to bring in color that has like a huge impact visually. You can move your art around your home as you choose, or you can, you know, maybe have a large collection and you can cycle it in or out. But, but I think, you know, a painting or a photograph that can inspire other decisions in a house, maybe, maybe it, you know, is the color of your bedding or your furniture or maybe it's bringing drama in through the scale or like a series and it's creating a visual rhythm. But I think that that is a easy way to also bring in color, especially if you want a more neutral, you know, furnishing. Furnishing scheme seems sort of like a no brainer. Although I know art is intimidating for a lot of people.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, before we wrap up, I am wondering if you have any exciting collaborations or top secret projects coming up that you are able to share with us.
[00:52:34] Speaker A: I mean, I wouldn't say it's top secret, but it's, it's a project that I'm really excited to shoot we're doing. So we have a project in Berlin, Germany. It's our third or fourth project that we've done there and it's for two Americans who are, who decided to, they brought us in before they even had a home. And so we helped them find the home and then we took it down to the studs and we really like spent a good chunk of time like envisioning it into this really cool, sexy space that I often joke is like Halston 70s meets like 1880s Vienna. Like there's a lot of, a lot of cool, fun, bold design decisions happening and, and we're going to install it soon and photograph it. And it's, it's just, it's very satisfying to see a project, you know, towards the end, especially as everything's coming together so well.
[00:53:26] Speaker B: That project sounds amazing and insane. I can't wait to get to see those photos and we'll be following along hopefully behind the scenes. Hopefully you guys share stuff on your Instagram as it's going in as well. Karen, this was so inspiring and so also very clear. Thank you for the very tangible inspiration pieces that we can start to incorporate into our own work. I am so grateful for your time and I really hope we get to chat again soon.
[00:53:52] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much. This was wonderful and I'm so, so glad I got to connect with you today.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: Thank you and we will chat soon.
[00:54:00] Speaker A: Okay, bye.
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[email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so so much for tuning in to this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
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Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
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