[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey, welcome back to the Interior Collective. I'm your host Anastasia Casey, and today I am sitting down with someone I have really been looking forward to getting to know, Sean Anderson. Sean grew up in rural Mississippi, where his mother encouraged his love of art long before he ever thought of it as a career. He never went to design school. He started in Memphis in his 30s with a small circle of loyal clients and word of mouth, and he said that he considers every day in this industry an education that every install is still his final exam. Since founding his namesake studio in 2013, Shawn Anderson has grown into offices in both Memphis and New York. His work has been featured in Architectural Digest, El Decor, Milieu, Garden, Gun, and Departures. He's also been named to the first dibs 50 and the wallpaper 400. And this fall he's releasing his debut monograph with Rizzoli Interior Narratives. With a forward by architect Jeffrey Duncan, text by Sam Cochran, and photography by his longtime collaborator Harris Kenjar, we are getting into all of it today. What it actually took to build a two city practice from a standing start in Memphis. The creative partnerships with an architect, a writer and a photographer that shaped this book and his business. And for every designer who has a book on their vision board, the real unglamorous path to publication from the inside do you feel like managing your projects has you all over the place? If you have been running your firm for a few years now, you've probably tried everything, cobbled together apps, spreadsheets, a project management tool or two and somehow you still feel like you are barely holding it all together. It's exhausting, but it is not your fault. Most tools were not built for the way interior designers are actually delivering projects these days. But material was from concept to handoff approvals to procurement to billing with QuickBooks sync built in Materio brings it all into one connected workflow so your projects finally feel totally under control.
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Free for 14 days, no credit card required and Interior Collective listeners get 50 off their first month at getmaterial.com that's M A T E R I O getmaterio.com hello Sean, welcome to the show. I am 100% geeking out right now. I am so glad that I got to use this excuse of a podcast to finally meet you because I am a super fan for sure. Thank you and welcome to the show.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: No, thank you for having me. I I'm a fan as well. I've listened to so many of podcast and I'm just grateful to be here.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Thanks for having me well, we have so much to talk about today and some.
Some topics that feel light and fluffy, like, oh, collaborations, it's so amazing. And then I think that we're also kind of getting into the weeds a little bit about, like, what it really takes to have these partnerships and collaborations with colleagues in industry adjacent fields and what that looks like over a long career to really make that happen and find success within that. So. So Sean Anderson is now running out of Memphis, where you're from, but then also New York. When did the New York office become real? And what was the tipping point that told you it needed to exist rather than just, you know, staying a satellite situation for client meetings as needed?
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah, it was the tipping point. It. It's been a gradual process. I would say the tipping point began during COVID as you've heard and I've heard on the podcast so many times. So many of us saw such significant growth during that period.
And I was one of those lucky enough to be in that situation and had a very small team here in Memphis and knew it was time for us to grow and add to the team. There were roles we needed to fill and put out some feelers, had many candidates apply that wanted to be a part, but for just whatever reason, we couldn't find those that felt like Memphis was going to be a good fit.
And I put out an Instagram ad and someone responded and said, should this ever be a remote position, like, I would love the opportunity. As luck would have it, I was in New York that next week we met and he became my first remote employee. And it was right at a time when I had just gotten my first New York project. So it all was just kind of lining up. And we've since gotten many more projects there. I've added to the team most. At this point, my entire design team is remote all over the US but with New York being such a hub in our industry, and there's so much that happens there, and it's just the polar opposite of what I experience here in Memphis also. You know, just like they're in my work, there is this constant friction and juxtaposition of the light and the dark and the rough and refined. And I think it's part of the way I also like to work. I like a different environment. So by the time I get a little bored and things become stagnant here in Memphis, I can go up to New York and fill that cup and fill the energy. And once that becomes too much, come back here and be a little more relaxed, a little More chill. And so it's just what really works for me. And I think it's putting us in a really good position as we're growing, as we're, you know, kind of really have become a legitimate firm. Like, it's helped with the growth and success of that. So that's what kind of led to the New York office.
[00:05:32] Speaker A: Unsurprisingly. I already have a million follow up questions.
A.
It's so amazing to hear you say that your entire design team works remotely. I feel like obviously every studio is different and what the principal feels is necessary from their team depends on the principal. But I love the concept of having a design team remote, especially when you have reached a caliber of projects such as Sean Anderson, that, you know, most of your projects aren't necessarily happening around the corner anyway.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Talk to me about how you feel you made it work, having everybody be remote.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: You know, look, if you had asked me at the beginning, like, is this a format that's going to work for you? I was absolutely not that person at that point. I had never even done a zoom. Like, the idea of sitting in front of a camera on a computer, like, gave me such anxiety, but I leaned into it because it felt right in the moment. And as I watched how this person in New York and I were working every day and making it work, and then we slowly added another and it is has allowed me to create and fill this team full of different personalities, different points of view. They're all in different cities, they're coming with different perspectives. And I think all of that feeds and fuels the work. Like you said, to be honest, we don't even have projects in Memphis right now. Like, our projects are everywhere, but so we're traveling for our projects anyway. So it's just kind of been this organic path that just really works. And, you know, while we do miss out on that, like face to face, you know, I've made it a rule we start every single day with a team call. No matter where anyone's at, we start a team call. So, like, we're still getting, we're filling our cup in a different way.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: I love that zoom calls used to give you anxiety and now you make everybody get on a morning zoom call.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: I live on this camera every day. And it's like I, I still am not comfortable with it, but it's just, it's, it's part of who we are and how we operate now. And I love it. I love it.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Okay, and then last follow up question before I actually get to the things I told you I was going to ask you. When you have a satellite office, you know, you have another location in New York. Everybody there is remote. Is this an excuse for you to get to have property in New York? Or when you're going up there, are you bouncing around to different hotels, friends, etc?
[00:07:58] Speaker B: I. I'm in hotels at the moment, but yeah, secretly, the goal is to always like, I love the city. I love New York. I'd love to find myself there at some point. You know, l.
Work is keeping me so busy and on the road right now, I can't justify having a spot. But when the time comes, that's. That's definitely in the future.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: Perfect. Thank you. I know so many people are interested in the concept of a satellite office. And, like, just logistically, how does that make sense? So, yeah, okay, let's go back in time a bit. You have said before that, you know, you have no formal design training in the very traditional technical sense. But you've talked about how your mother encouraged your love of art growing up in Mississippi. What's the earliest memory you specifically have of her doing that? What is. What is encouraging you to love art look like in your history?
[00:08:52] Speaker B: So I was a very artistic child. I drew, I painted, I dabbled in all those different mediums. And I think my mom was someone who really paid attention and she saw as parents, do you recognize what gifts your children have? And so she really helped, helped foster that. She was the one that was always over my shoulder, like, why'd you do it that way? Like, what would you change if you could do that? Well, go back and do that. You know, make it, make it better. Then if you think you can do it better, then let's do that. So that. That was how she supported that. It wasn't about perfection. That was never the goal, but it was about doing your best, applying your best. And I think that's something that really resonated as a child that I've been able to carry with me and parlay into, like, this field of work now.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: So you had once said that you look at Install Day as kind of like the final exam on a project.
What do you mean by that? Because I feel like there's a. There's a large percentage of designers that Install Day is, like, the most fun. Like, Shoot Day is, like, the highlight of their project. And there's a really big percentage of designers who are like, I loathe this phase of the project. Like, let's just wrap it up, get it done. Done.
How. How do you handle this final exam. Exam moment. And how do you ensure that that final exam is landing with, you know,
[00:10:18] Speaker B: an A plus look like. I do view it as a final exam, but that doesn't mean I've always made a hundred on those tests, you know, like, it's. It is an exam, and it is our opportunity. A lot of these projects last for years. At this point. We've been on a project two, three, four years, and that's the moment when you realize, did we measure everything correctly? Did we plan correctly? Have we executed all of this the way it needed to be done? And in the early days, there were times it didn't, and we had to learn from those. And that's the exam component of it. That's when you take those lessons and then those are applied to every subsequent job, you know, And I personally love installed A's. It is a lot of work. But like I said, I'm one of those that can't kind of sit still. I'm the first one in the truck. I want to help the movers. I want to. I like to get my hands dirty. I learn from doing.
So not only is it learning like what we planned on, but also in the moment, as we're moving things just logistically, all of those things and those, you know, components, how did they all come together so fluidly at the end?
[00:11:24] Speaker A: In hindsight, looking back on those earlier days of installs that weren't necessarily 100% perfect, could you give our listeners a shortcut past two specific lessons you learned when it came to install days that, you know, don't forget to do this.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Measure, measure, measure, measure, double, triple check everything.
I had a project years ago. This was in the very early days.
It was over the Christmas holiday. We were doing the installation, and we got there, and almost the entire home, all of the drapery was like 2 to 3 inches too long. You know, it was supposed to have just this perfect break, and they were all puddling, and the client didn't want that. I knew that I had two to three days to fix this. I can't sew. I was not getting down there, attempting to fix this. So I had to find a local workroom that was willing to come out, fix all of that. It was a costly mistake, but I can guarantee you that has never happened again. And so that's one of those.
You've got to just roll with it. Mistakes are going to sometimes happen. It's how you apply the lesson learned through those so that you don't repeat them in the future.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: You have Described yourself, even in these, you know, first 10 minutes of the show as an eternal student that you consider every day an education and an opportunity to learn. What is something a client or a tradesperson taught you in the last year? Recent memory that has changed the way you work and the way that you run your studio.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: To be honest, I think the biggest lesson in recent memory has been to, you know, we're all so busy. You're so busy. Everyone in this industry, we're juggling a million things at once. And so some of those fundamentals you learn early on can sometimes be forgotten once things start becoming routine and formulaic. And I think the biggest thing for me in recent memory is to really sit back and listen.
You've got to pay attention to what you know, what your clients are saying, you know, and every client relays information differently. Some really use visual aids, some use descriptive words.
Everyone's.
You've got to study their way of communicating and really read through the lines. I've. You've heard this before. Like, we're also kind of therapists in a way. And so it's really on us to dissect what they are saying and what they're not able to quite verbalize for us. And that's something that's really come back recently, is our goal is to satisfy our clients. This is a luxury industry. They are hiring us for that. And we've got to keep their desires paramount through the process.
[00:14:07] Speaker A: That's so fascinating, Sean, because I harp on process and having a process in place, and that's going to help you get to the next level in your studio. But 10 years in business for myself, and, you know, we're serving interior designers, not interior design clients. I've learned that the higher the caliber projects you're working on, sort of the more you have to be willing to bend your process to serve the client. And I absolutely feel like it's.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: It's.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: It's one of those things that it's like you have to know the rules to be able to break the rules. But the willingness to break said rules to make your client more comfortable, more amenable, just happier with the end product, I think is so key.
Which brings me to my next question of, you know, not having gone specifically to interior design school in.
In your words, how do you feel like you are breaking rules that you didn't even know existed? You know, in school they're going to teach you X, Y and Z. Has to happen. It always has to be existing. Exactly that. Can you name an actual rule that now, you know, in your career, something taught in every design program that you deliberately ignore, that just doesn't even mean anything to you.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: I mean, not. Not exactly. But I will say, you know, they're teaching you, you know, proportion and balance and hierarchy. And I think those are all rules and areas that need to be perfected. And you do need to know, and you do need to learn, but they're also there' always opportunity for those rules to be broken. And I think doing what feels true to you is ultimately where the best product comes from. I fundamentally believe that. And I think oftentimes, instead of leading with those parameters, I lead with emotion.
And that sometimes is what clients respond to. It's what they feel in a space.
It's less so about, like, well, that distance from the coffee table, the sofa, isn't your standard, or, you know, this. This trim, whatever the detail might be, it's less about that and more about how they feel in the space. And that's what I hear from so many clients when they approach us, you know, and it's something that photography does well for us. Like, I work with someone who has been able to capture for me what the spaces feel like. And so I think that is what people remark when they come to us. You know, they comment first on, like, I saw this image and it felt X, and that's what they're after. And I think that's kind of ultimately the guiding light for me.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: We don't talk about design ethos on the show very often, but, like, as such a huge fan, I do have a specific question regarding your ethos when it comes to approaching spaces. That the tension in your work of rough and refined and, as you said, dark and light and the contrast between Memphis and New York is. Is a lot easier to describe than I feel like it is to execute.
Can you give us an example of a specific room where that tension ended up losing balance in how you brought it back together? Because in the end, everything feels so harmonious. But when you look at one piece next to another, you're like, how did that even happen? How do those things work?
[00:17:41] Speaker B: How do they work? Yeah, so I have. There's a project in the book that you've seen. It's a Tribeca Penthouse. It was my first New York project. And so.
So much of my work up until that point had been, like, kind of, you know, in the southeast kind of region where a lot of our work has been. And so this was the first foray into the big city. And, like, you know, I had this idea in mind of what a New York project needed to look like. And it was complete gut renovation, so everything was kind of new. And so the approach for me at first was, oh, everything needs to be, like, new and clean and polished. And when I laid it all out after I made all the selections, I was like, that magic sauce was kind of missing. Like, I was missing those pieces that did make you question, like, how. How does this work? It just. It was too clean. It was too perfect. And I think that's. That's. That was the first example in a while where I felt like, whoa, I'm really leaning. I want to stretch that muscle. I like working in different genres. I like working in different environments, but that was the first time in a while where I was like, I'm missing that magic that. That makes all of these other spaces work. And so I had to go back and incorporate the antiques and the rough items and those sort of things that. That were lacking in that first pass.
[00:19:03] Speaker A: I was just going to ask when. Where were you in the process when you realized, like, this just isn't feeling like me?
[00:19:09] Speaker B: I was prepping for the presentation, and we were laying it all out and printing our documentation and looking at all of this together. And it.
That. That was when I noticed when you. When you just saw it all laid out and everything, because it was. It was very subtle and serene and, like, the palette's really clean and so.
And texture is such a big component. But I was. I was missing so much of that, even in the fabric. Like, the color palette remained the same, but the texture of the fabrics was. Was not.
You know, there wasn't a friction between those elements.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Okay, so let's talk about the book, because I'm so honored to have gotten to see a copy before everyone else gets to. By the time this airs, you guys can place your orders, but Interior narratives honors the creative partnerships that have shaped your work alongside the design itself. And before we really get into the book, can you talk about how you think creative collaboration as a business strategy and how that's played a role in your career thus far?
[00:20:13] Speaker B: I mean, to be honest with you, I don't look at it as a business strategy. I look at it. It is a necessary component for me for the success. Success of a project.
At the end of the day, every one of these members, the builder, the architect, the designer, the landscape architect, all of us are just players on the same team.
And if. If we are not working as a unit, as a team, that's. That's where things start to fall apart. And so it's, it's not really a strategy. It's. It's a necessity for me. And we strive hard to, like, create those relationships. And I think that's what's led to so many lasting relationships I do have in this industry and with collaborators and the people I work with is because there's a shared vision and there's a mutual respect in what everyone is bringing to the table.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: You guys are going to hear me talk about photography a lot this season because it's been. It's a conversation that's been happening a lot at dinner tables when I'm with friends and clients these days.
Most designers have historically been treating photography as a line item, as we have to photograph this project and then we have to move on.
You have built a long standing creative partnership with your photographer.
How intentional was it to be shooting with the same photographer? How did you find Harris? What.
What made that partnership make sense and how have you maintained it through, you know, now your book as well, in addition to everything you've been shooting before?
[00:21:53] Speaker B: I first found Harris years ago on Instagram, as so many people do. You know, it's. It's such a tool.
And because going back just a little bit, because I didn't have any training, I knew early on I was one of those lucky few that came about right as Instagram was coming about.
So I knew, like, this is my ticket in. They're never going to hire me based on me saying I can do something. Like, I don't have the credentials. I've got to show what I can do. And so the early career was built, you know, working on that, trying to, like, solidify myself that way. And I've worked with a few different people, all really great people, but there was something about Harris's work that just drew me in.
It was the emotion, it was the feeling of the way he captures things, the way he lights things, the way he styles things. And so I reached out and we first shot together, I think for the first time in 2020 height of COVID We're just a few months in. There's a whole story there.
And we just clicked. Day one, we just clicked. We started trying to move, you know, we would reach to move the object in the same direction. We would complete each other's sentences. Like there was just a synergy behind that shoot and how we were approaching it.
And I left that.
And once I saw the images, I knew, like, this was my person. Like, we. I found the end to my yang and this was the Way, like I said earlier, he captured the way I thought the spaces felt and that that was the biggest draw for me. So we went back at that point and reshot all of the projects I had on my website up until that point, because I wanted everything to be cohesive. And I have the most phenomenal clients. They were all like, yeah, come back in, do your thing, you know. So we went back and reshot all of it. I wanted everything to feel the same, to be seen through his lens, to be captured. The way that he and I do that together.
And it's just grown over the years. I can't even count how many shoots we've done at this point. And beyond that, we're friends now. For years of working together, we've developed such a unique, like, bond and genuine real friendship. And that's all rooted in mutual respect. He respects what I bring, I respect his, you know, take. My team knows that this is when we're at a shoot, like he and I are going to lead this thing and it's, it's just really kind of, I don't know, I'm lucky to have found that in a collaborative partner.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: I love that. Okay, more follow up questions. Okay. The fact that you went back to shoot, reshoot your past projects, I'd love to talk about like the logistics of that because I would love some of our clients to go and reshoot some of their projects.
Okay. Where do I even start with these follow up questions? A talk to me about, what exactly did you say to your clients when you said, can we get in to shoot this? Because I think that that's probably everybody's first hurdle. It's like, I could never get back in. We have families, like, they would never let us out.
[00:25:09] Speaker B: I mean, this is another one of those. I don't so many facets of what I've created here, like, does not make sense on paper, but I have the most phenomenal roster of clients anyone has ever been given. I mean, I think it was one year, a couple years ago I had like four or five invite me to Thanksgiving. I'm like, you guys know I have a family. Like, I have obligations. But like, that's the type relationships that we're able to cultivate with these people. You're, you're with them for, like I said, years at a time. And so not a single one has ever been anything but supportive. They, they know the history, they know where I've come from, they know what it's taken to get to this point. And no one flinched. They were like, come in, do your thing. Most of them left for the week because these shoots, our shoot.
Most every shoot's a week, like, minimum. It's. And they. They would leave and just let us do our thing. And they knew how important it was. You know, we. I didn't know a book was coming at that point, but of course, it's on the vision board. It's a dream, like, maybe one day. And so it was also just part of our education together. We've. I've learned how he operates. He's learned how I operate. And so reshooting those projects allowed us to just kind of further learn one another and how we work and has resulted in what we see now.
[00:26:33] Speaker A: Okay, super technical logistical questions you can absolutely opt out of. Do you offer, like, do you pay for your clients to leave? Are you putting them up somewhere? Or are you. Is it as fortunate where they can be, like, hey, we're gonna be going on vacation. These are the dates you can have if it works?
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's more like that. You know, they're. They're so.
A lot of them travel.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: Many of them have other homes or something like that. And so we work around their schedule. You know, it was. It was just something I knew at that point. It is. I'd reached that point where I'm like, I'm building a brand. I want this to become a brand. It has to have one identity. And the past work and what Harrison and I were doing were two separate things. And for me to continue to build that brand, it was essential that everything represented in that one light.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Do you feel like when you went in to reshoot something, which maybe it had been years since you had installed it, do you feel like the fact that the spaces at that point had been lived in was to your benefit or posed a more logistical problem. Opportunity.
Because it was going to take more restyling. It was going to take bringing in a lot in order to make it, you know, shoot ready.
[00:27:54] Speaker B: Both there were, like, pros and cons. You know, the fact that they were living there allowed me to take some of their items and use them in the styling to, you know, incorporate those type of things. But then there was also the extra legwork of moving and replacing. And there's a project in the book. I think you might have seen it. That was the first project Harris and I shot together. And we went back last year and reshot it for the book because it had been so long and, you know, organically, the evolution of the firm, things are starting to change. The look is changing. And so we wanted to put a fresh spin on it. And so they were game. And it was really fun to be back in that environment and just kind of reimagine if we were to tackle that today, some eight, nine years later.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: Okay. And then lastly, before I actually move on to what we're supposed to be talking about, how did you wrap your head around the investment of going to reshoot everything? Because I know that designers are literally weighing when they're looking at their profit margins from a project like, can I even shoot this? Let alone going back on something that you, you know, completed, how did you. How did you weigh that worth? And saying, this has to be done and it's going to change our trajectory by this much. And that's how. That's how I believe it. Like, how did you make that happen?
[00:29:20] Speaker B: It was as simple as me just believing in what we were doing. I believed in the work we were doing. I believed in what we were creating. I was listening to those that we were working for and the reception it was receiving, you know, be it publications or collaborators we were working with. And so I just.
I had to just like, sit down and say, this is. Is this is what this firm is going to be. This is what we're going to represent. This is. This is how we tell who we are. And without that, I don't think that I can properly, you know, tell the world what it is that Sean Anderson has to offer.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: If you've been running your firm for a few years now, you've probably got a system in place, and I do use that term loosely. It's going to be a mix of apps, some spreadsheets, maybe a project management tool that was close, but never quite right. And you are still the one holding it all together.
But here's the thing. Most tools were not built for the way interior designers actually deliver projects. Materio was concept to handoff approvals to procurement to billing with QuickBooks sync built right in one connected workflow Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their first month at getmaterio.com free for 14 days. No credit card required. That's M A T E r I o get material.com okay, we've covered photo. Let's talk a little bit about the relationship and collaboration with an architect on a project.
At what stage do you prefer to bring one in or be brought into a project?
And how do you protect your interior vision within that collaboration while also respecting and enhancing the architects?
[00:31:12] Speaker B: I think the first key in that being successful is working with someone that you share a vision with and that you have that mutual respect. Like, there are brilliant people out there. And I'm sure, like, but not every partnership is going to be successful. You have got to find those that are going to allow you to do what you do best, and you can in turn allow them to do what they do best. And like I said earlier, like, it's a team effort, and if the approach is there, all the other pieces are going to fall into place. Like, I'm not saying, like, you're going to agree on everything. We often refer to it here in the firm as creative tension. Like, it exists, you know, like, don't get me wrong, there are egos in this industry. We all know that. Like, and. But you've got to set that aside and say what best benefits the project? What is going to make the client happy? I don't care whose idea it was. Like, it can be the delivery guy that showed up while you're talking about it. Like, I don't care who comes up with the idea as long as the best idea wins and the project is most successful for that. And so working with architects who share that sentiment and are willing to work that way with you, you're going to hit a home run every time, because the necessity of what's fundamentally going to make it successful is already ingrained.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: You have already mentioned on the show that.
You have the world's best clients. And to everyone listening, I'm sure there's a lot of great. How do you get those world's best clients in this situation of world's best clients, have.
Do you. Have they come to you first and you're putting the team together, or are you more often being brought on after, you know, they bought the land, they're ready to build, renovate? Obviously, being in the southeast of it, there's a lot of renovation that happens. But in your ideal workflow, when are you coming into the project? Because I feel like a lot of designers don't get the opportunity to decide if they're working with someone they work well with. And so I'm just curious how you've been able to formulate that that's been
[00:33:26] Speaker B: the case for me. I have often been. Even to this day, most all of our work is kind of evenly split between renovation and new build.
And every new build I'm on, I'm the last one brought to the table. The architect's already in place, the builder's in place. And so.
But again, I've had opportunities where it felt like a dream project. But I just didn't feel that the relationship between who I might be working with, who you're getting in bed with for three years, if that's not there, it's just not worth it. So I think it ultimately comes back to you, the person and saying, is this going to work for me? It's the same way we filter clients. You know, you're working with them for years. Like the temperaments, the approach, the.
All of that has to be aligned. And it's the same way with the team.
[00:34:18] Speaker A: Is there a guideline that you typically follow when it comes to where the architect's work stops and where your work begins? When it comes to the interior walls, I know that there can be some creative tension, as you said, as to what, what falls under whose role. And is there a sweet spot that you have found, or is that also a conversation towards the infancy of a project to find the sweet spot with your team?
[00:34:52] Speaker B: It often just depends on the circumstances. And when you're brought on board a lot of these new builds, the architects have already designed most everything. You know, the cabinet profiles, all of those details have already been ironed out and they're pretty firm in them. And so if that's the case, it's up to me to judge.
Do I still have what I need that exists within this project to put my stamp on it and make known and like display what we have to offer, or is this something I need to pass on? You know, and then there are others who are very adaptable and say, if you don't like this, like, show me something else. You know, there's some are a bit more collaborative and there's not a right or wrong necessarily. It's up to you to judge what works for you. That's, that's how I've had to approach it. And so there isn't a guideline for me. It runs the gamut. I've been from this end to this end and made them all work.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Jeffrey Duncan wrote the forward to your book, which is very exciting, very major.
How did that relationship start? And what does an architect like him see in your interiors that most designers wouldn't think to ask an architect about?
[00:36:08] Speaker B: You're gonna have to ask Jeff that one. I, I don't know. But I will say I met Jeff years ago in Birmingham. We've done a lot of work in Birmingham, Alabama. And through a mutual friend, I'd been a long time admirer. You know, it was always on my list. Like, maybe one day I'll be able to work on a You know, Jeffrey Dung at home, and we've since done several. I just completed work on his personal home, which was major for me, and I think we just have a similar way of looking at things and the approach is similar and he doesn't want to get in the way of what I do. You know, obviously he's already built the whole world which my offering will inhabit. But he's open and he's collaborative. I mean, you're familiar with his work. He's a genius. First of all, he's. He's one of the best. And we just developed a friendship again, back to these relationships. We developed a friendship aside from this working relationship. And I think it's that that has led to the success in the relationship we have now.
And yeah, I just can't say enough great things about him and how much his support means to me through being there, through this firm, you know, from, from its infancy.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: For a designer without a Harris or a Jeffrey yet, no long standing creative partner, what would you say is their actual first move to start developing those? You are so charming and it feels good to be talking to you.
That's not every designer out there has that same gift. What would you say someone who maybe doesn't feel like the most outgoing or like people person out there could do to start to build those relationships when it's not always like an instant hit it off with someone?
[00:38:16] Speaker B: Look, I'm not that person either. I am such an introvert. I have been lucky to find some of those, you know, relationships. But early on, like, I didn't have that. There's, you know, I didn't know much about the design scene here where I live. I didn't know much about it in general and so forced me out of my bubble where I am not a social butterfly. Those kind of, you know, big social events make me anxious. But I just started reaching out to people in my city, in my town, seeing what they were doing, you know, DMing them on Instagram, meeting up for coffee, like, really exploring. And what I found was so many people in this industry want to share. They want to be supportive. They. I've had so many people that I had never met. I reached out and I said, I saw you did this.
Don't feel obligated, but if you're willing to like, walk me through. And they got on a call right then, like, happy to share. And, and that's my philosophy. I, I'm open to anyone approaching me like that. And I think that's what I love about our industry. I have Found more often than not, people are willing to do that. People want to share what works, what doesn't. Like, you know, you're going to guard your secrets, but you're going to share what you can to make people better or how to approach a problem or those type of things. So I think you really just have to reach out, explore, like, want to know more, want to dig in and not be afraid to ask.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about execution of the book and writing the book. You had a co writer on the book. Talk to me about how you selected a co writer, what that process was like, and just things to keep in mind as other designers have the dream of a book someday.
[00:40:10] Speaker B: I am not a writer, so I knew it was a necessity for me to have someone assist me through this endeavor. And so my PR team sent me a few. I read some of Sam's work, and I just. It really resonated with me and the way in which he writes, the descriptions he uses. It just. It was. It was kind of back to that moment where, you know, I found Harris and the way, like, his photography made you feel. Sam does the same thing with words. And I felt like he was the person for me that would be able to capture and encapsulate what I wanted to say, but wasn't able to. And so that I was lucky again, to find a partner in something that that was exactly what I needed when I needed it.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: How did you. What was, like, the process like with Sam? How much information were you providing? Were you giving, like, huge, long voice memos about describing projects or your process?
How does a writer get the information they need from the designer?
[00:41:16] Speaker B: We had many, many conversations. And so, I mean, it started with. Again, at the beginning, I wasn't sure what I really wanted to share, what this book was going to say. And so Sam kind of helped me through that.
He's done this before. I had never done this. And so those first few conversations were really just me explaining to Sam who I was, where I come from, what this means to me, what this world, like, means for me, the firm, for the clients that we're, you know, servicing. And so we got through a lot of that. The history, my youth, my upbringing, all of that stuff. And then we started diving into the projects, and so we kind of have a zoom per project to really walk through that entire process. The clients, what it looked like, what we did and that and that sort of thing.
[00:42:12] Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about the bookmaking, the book, pitching how. How the book came to be. Because a Book with Rizzoli is the top. Is it. Is everyone's vision board.
How did interior narratives actually come about? Who pitched who did they approach? You was there, you know, this photo embargo, so you had to hold work for eight years? Like, just tell it, just take a second.
[00:42:39] Speaker B: What does it all look like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it was, it was, it was new for me. All of it was new for me. I had a colleague several years ago connect me with the book editor and she. We had a great meeting in la and she said, you're ready for a book. We need to get this out there. We need to. And I just knew it wasn't the time for me. I knew what I was working on, I knew what some of the older projects look like compared to where I was headed. So I said, we need to pump the brakes. Like, I'm not ready. And then she came back about two years later and I was like, okay, now, now I'm ready. I know what I want to say, I know what I want to show. And so she, you know, made the pitch to Rosolie. They obviously said yes. Luckily, you know, it's still a kind of a pinch me moment. And then we were kind of off to the races and it moved quickly. I mean, in hindsight, I say that it was about a two year process, but there's so many steps and there's so much involvement that it does kind of fly by. It's like a project. This is another little baby that you've got, you know, cooking over there.
We had to select the projects that were going to be in it. We had to figure out what it was going to say. We had to find the book designer. I mean, there's so much.
It operated very similarly to how we serviced an interior design project.
I just got to be the client in this scenario. And so I got to determine and go through a lot of details. There was a lot of back and forth. Had a brilliant designer, you know, who was very patient. I was like, oh, we need to tweak this a little. You know, there's so much of that. So I. It gave me a little more grace too, with our clients. And when they have feedback, I'm like, okay, now I really do get it.
[00:44:17] Speaker A: How much of the process?
Firstly, when you say two years, do you mean two years from pitch to completion or two years from pitch to
[00:44:26] Speaker B: acceptance, pitch to completion? Thereabout? Okay, yeah, from the minute we kind of signed to when it's going to be out in September.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Okay. And then secondly, when working with a publisher, in this case, we're talking Rizzoli. Was there a lot of guidance from them on, like, okay, we need it to be X, Y, Y and Z format. This. We have the designer for you, the, you know, the graphic designer, book designer for you. Was there a lot of guidance from them or were you surprised by how much your book agent needed to guide you on it?
[00:45:02] Speaker B: There was a lot of guidance. Again, this is. I, I, I, I sound like a broken record, but I have so many phenomenal people in my orbit. I don't know what I've done in a past life to deserve this, but everyone associated with the book was so gracious. And, you know, my representative from Rizzoli, the editorial team, the design team, they really all came together. This was also not new for them. They all knew one another. They've all worked together. So, like, this wasn't their first rodeo. And so they jointly helped really guide me through this whole process and what, you know, setting expectations for what was coming next and really setting me up for success.
So I wasn't just stuck there at the end, not, not sure what was happening or how it was going to end up and, you know, that sort
[00:45:51] Speaker A: of thing in hindsight. So you and Harris had decided, we're going to go reshoot projects at that point. You had, had you even talked to that agent in LA yet?
[00:46:02] Speaker B: No, this was, this was early, early on. This was like 2020.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: Okay, so now fast forward.
Do you, how much of a role in landing this book deal do you think Harris played? Because this is not Harris's first Rizzoli book. It's not his first rodeo either. As people who a book deal is an active goal for them, how much weight do you think picking one photographer, sticking with that same photographer, how much weight do you think that really is going to play into the end game for them?
[00:46:42] Speaker B: I mean, for me personally, I think it's huge. I think it's incredibly important. I think what it does is allows you to show one cohesive brand instead of having different, you know, photographers and different, you're going to, you're just going to have a different result. This allowed us to have one cohesive vision from beginning to end, and it's mightily important. I mean, let's be honest. Like, at the end of the day, people want to see pretty photos. Like that is the, like, that's what kind of grabs you. You know, the words are kind of secondary. You know, people are looking at the images first. You know, that cover image. It's either going to grab someone, or it's not like they're either going to pick it up or they're going to pass it by. And so the photography is key. His offering is hugely important.
I mean, I can't say enough about what he has to offer in this. Not only that, but we don't work with stylists on our shoots. He and I do all of that together. And so when I say, like, it's fully immersive, like, we live in this world together as we create all of this.
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Wow, that is so interesting because I've always looked at your work and Harris's work, even with other designers, and I've always been like, I wonder who's styling their shoots. Do they have someone on staff?
That is so fascinating and impressive that you guys are handling the styling yourselves.
[00:48:05] Speaker B: I'm a collector, and so I have a warehouse, 4,000 square feet of just stuff. And so whenever we're heading to an install, like, we kind of time it where we do an install followed immediately by the photo shoot. I like to just spend two weeks in the home and knock it all out. Then I'm out of the client's way. We hand it over, done.
But I show up to that. We bring a truck of just items I want to pull from that. I want to have everything we may need ready. And look, I've been on this project at this point how many years? You know, I'm kind of tired in a way of, like, trying to study what's going to. Harris comes in with a clean slate, brand new eyes, looking at it for the first time. So, like, I lean into that, like, what do you see in this? And.
And again, if I feel adamant, he'll say, okay, let's use that. But I love that he will come in and offer a different take on something, because my team and I have been living in this world for so long. And so. And then we have all of these items and things at our disposal to. To play with as we style, as we move. You know, I can't tell you how many times we have the living room chairs end up in the primary bedroom because they look, you know, and the camera light's going to catch it differently. You know that there's also that manipulation between the lens and in person. And so. And Harris understands all of that, and I support that. So it's. It's. It's pretty special.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: Do you do your own, like, florals and foliage and perishables, too?
[00:49:35] Speaker B: We do all that.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: Wow, I am so impressed.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Harris. Harris does it I mean, I'm telling you, he's a genius. Like, I like dabbling in it. He dabbles in it. My design assistant was a florist in a former career. So, like, all of us just kind of work together and just create as we go along.
[00:49:53] Speaker A: That is so fun. Okay, finishing up, as we're talking, specifically book stuff, is there anything about the publishing process that. That really surprised you that you feel is worthy, worthwhile sharing for other people to expect?
[00:50:13] Speaker B: Not necessarily. I will say I think my biggest takeaway was the pace at which I everything happens. Even though I'm sitting here saying this was a two year process, it moved quickly. I think, you know, maybe, like, if I was ever lucky enough to have a second book, it might feel different. But being my first time going through this, like, I felt like it moved really, really fast. And so I think the more homework you can do at the beginning and preparation you can do of your own.
Like, go into that knowing what you want to say, what, what, you know, galleries you want to share, like, have a lot of those things kind of outlined will just help you through the pace of, of some of that
[00:50:56] Speaker A: interior narratives. Covers nine of your projects.
How can we talk about the process of how you decided which projects made the cut and which didn't? And was there anyone that you really feel like you had to fight for to be included?
[00:51:12] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. So the project that's on the COVID we installed and shot three weeks before everything had to be submitted and finalized.
And so I was just planning, like, there was no time. There was a different project, there was a different cover, there was a different project that was one of the nine we got to this project. It's in. It's outside of Charleston. It's the most dreamy project, like, location.
And on day two of that shoot, Harrison, I just both kind of at the same time looked at each other and were like, this has to be in the book. And so I called my editor that day from the shoot. I'm like, we're shooting right now. I know everything's already locked and loaded. Like, we've got two weeks. If Harris can go back and edit this quickly and get the images to you, can we make this swap? And they were so gracious to work with us, and it was like a rush to the finish line. But that was the one that I just wanted it in there. It felt right and it's the one that ended up being on the COVID So, yeah.
[00:52:18] Speaker A: Okay. So in a situation where a project was going to be in it, I Imagine there's some level of permissions you're getting from clients to have their properties in this book.
A, what does that process look like? And then B, how. How do you tell someone three weeks out from turning in your final that, like, hey, some things have changed and it's not going to run?
[00:52:42] Speaker B: I. I had to do what I felt was best for this book. You know, I'm only going to have my first book once, and I want it to fully represent what I wanted to say and wanted to show. And, yeah, you do have to get all the permissions. Everyone has to sign off. But like I said, my clients are so gracious that that was never an issue. So. So, yeah, I just had to do what felt right for the book and felt like the right mix and, like, piece to that puzzle.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about what listeners can execute right away from this conversation.
If a designer wants to build the kind of creative partnerships with longevity that you have, what is one thing you think that they could start tackling right away?
[00:53:30] Speaker B: I mean, for me, it's kind of like my learning process. I kind of do everything for some reason, in reverse. And so my take would be, you start with your own internal team.
Your own team is the foundation on which everything else is built. You know, down from my procurement division and how they work with our vendors to my designers and how they work with our architects and builders. Like, if you are not solid in your own internal team, I don't think any of those other components are ever going to find their way to you and work. It's. To me, that's the foundation of everything.
[00:54:09] Speaker A: This probably piggybacks into my next question then. It might be the same answer, it might be different, but what do you think is the single most important investment a designer can make earlier in their career? That, in hindsight, you may have undervalued in your own experience?
[00:54:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, it is the same answer. It's the team. It's like, you know, you've got to know.
I know, as the owner of this firm, like, what my limitations are.
I know what roles I needed to fill for this firm to reach the level of success that we have found ourselves at. And so I had to find those individuals that could fill those cups and none of this would exist without the team. Like, I'm nothing without the team. This firm is nothing without every single person that's here. And so I think that's. And again, just continuing to invest in yourself. And I think if you believe in what you're doing and what you're creating, then all of those other things are going to work themselves out.
[00:55:11] Speaker A: Interior Narratives releases this fall.
What do you want someone to understand about your design work after reading it that they might not be able to get from just your Instagram or a magazine feature?
[00:55:27] Speaker B: I think just the belief to the ability to believe in yourself and the ability to trust your own instincts, to trust your gut. You know, I. We touched on earlier, but I don't have formal training and so there are, you know, things that sometimes like make people question when I propose them or they walk into a room. Like, the scale of that feels weird, but it's not that I don't like it, but it feels different. It feels off. Like there's some friction here I didn't expect. Like. And I think, and that's what I love so much about where we're finding our industry right now. You know, we're getting away from the all white, all solid, clean, boring interiors. And everyone, I think, is starting to really embrace individuality. And so that's what I want this book to represent, is just someone's own point of view, someone's own belief in what they think is right. Trusting their instincts, trusting their gut and taking those chances. That's to me what it's all about.
[00:56:29] Speaker A: And lastly, you know, I love to wrap up the show with some sort of top secret upcoming news. Is there anything, I mean, outside of a Rizzoli book that you have coming up in the pipeline that you can share with us?
[00:56:44] Speaker B: To be honest, not. Not really. I mean, we've got, we've got a lot of projects. You know, there are dreams, but we're not quite down that path yet. And so, you know, product is one I want to dabble in product. You know, we do so many custom pieces for our projects that that's starting to really call to me and I don't know what that looks like. I don't want to rush that process either. Like, like it will all happen when and how it's supposed to.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Well, Sean, I am so proud of you and so grateful for this mad dash of two year sprint you've been on to get us this book. I can't wait for everyone else to get their copies. And thank you so much for your time today.
[00:57:24] Speaker B: I'm so happy you got to see it. I want to thank you for your time. Thanks for having me. This was phenomenal.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: Thank you so much for more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon we are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] TheInterior Collective thank you so so much for tuning in to this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
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Until next time. I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
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