Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Tiffany Piotrowski is back and this time we are digging into her studio's 100 image exercise. This episode relies heavily on the video portion of it as Tiffany generously shows us physical examples of what she's explaining. If you are not already watching this on Patreon or YouTube, pause and head over there.
Subscribing on Patreon gets you access to not only the full video conversation to this and all of our episodes, it also gains you access to two additional episodes per month, along with coordinating worksheets and materials exclusive to Patreon subscribers. Supporting this podcast directly is what makes it possible for me to keep running this show and we have a lot more of it coming. Tiffany is founder of Tiffany Lee Design, a full service design studio based in Barrie, Ontario, known for its English inspired interiors, layered materiality, and a deeply thoughtful approach to understanding what home means to each client. Tiffany is also a close personal friend and in one of our industry group texts she mentioned this concept of a 100 image exercise. Immediately, I knew we needed to record a show about it. In her process, Tiffany has developed what she calls a dream and scheme meeting, a structured first meeting with every new client that goes far beyond the standard questionnaire. It has four parts, it happens in person at her studio, and it is designed to surface the things a client would never think to write down. One of the centerpieces of that meeting is the 100 image exercise, something that she learned from Melissa Ohulent of OHO Interiors and has since made her own. Today she is walking us through the whole thing and she's doing a live demo on camera.
Hello Tiffany, welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to have you on for a special show and tell episode.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm so honored and excited to be back here with you and your audience.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: Anytime I get an excuse to like make you talk to me, it is the best.
Let's kick things off with a quick update of where Tiffany Lee Design is today. Since we last spoke, I have to like literally reverse back in time to remember when it actually was because we are close personal friends and I talk to you almost every day. So when we had our last official conversation, where have things moved since then?
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah, so when we last spoke, the episode was really about kind of me pivoting as a business owner and as a designer and really narrowing down what I was doing. We closed the shop, I shrunk my team down so that I could really offer a more bespoke service and just work in a way that felt more Natural and more bright for me.
And that was a big step and that was a couple of years ago now and we've really stuck true to that. We are a team of four. So in house, it's myself, it's our lead designer, it's our procurement specialist, and it's our CAD technician. And then we have some external support from for bookkeeping and accounting and that kind of thing. But we've kept it small. We run six to seven projects at a time. Nice meaty projects that really work with clients who align very closely with our values and our aesthetic. And so it's really allowed us the space to step into these projects more fully and for me to get back in the creative driving seat, which is really nice.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: It's so exciting to hear about what happened. Post a scale back. I am so grateful for that first episode we had together talking about it because as you know personally, this is very timely conversation for me and IDK Studio and Quinn made and just kind of like where we're scaling back right now, but also just to see like how amazing that can really turn out for someone and how really focusing your studio and like staying lean can be a really powerful tool. And to see, you know, I know your project so well personally and to see the kind of projects and work you guys are putting out with that tight of a team is incredible. So last logistical question before like we really start getting into things as a studio, how are you guys currently structuring your fees? Is it hourly, flat rate? Is it a combination? Are you giving people a full proposal these days? Are you just kind of like, I'm here as you need me, tell us how you're pricing.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Yes. So we do everything hourly. I've always billed hourly, even when I worked for other firms before going out on my own. So it just comes very naturally to me.
And we do give clients not a full robust proposal, saying this is the scope and breaking it down, but saying, you know, a past project of a similar scope came in around this price. So that's a good starting point to think of.
And really making sure they understand that every project is different depending on, you know, how many revisions there are, how quickly they can make decisions, how wonderful or not so wonderful their contractor is. All of these things affect how much time is spent on a project and that's one of the reasons we really like to keep that hourly. So system in place.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Okay. I feel, I feel like there's follow up questions because those listening are like, wait, wait, did you just say you're not giving like official firm proposals.
Okay, so you are like, this is what, this past project that was similar. This is how long we worked on it. That's what this total number looks like.
Obviously you have markup and other ways that you are collecting funds from a client.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:47] Speaker A: How do you get a client to say yes to that? How do you get a client to say, yeah, it's fine, I don't need an affirm number.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: I don't actually know.
Never given a formal proposal to a client in my whole career, ever.
So I'll give a percentage kind of based on their build, depending if it's a new build or renovation. If it's a renovation, it's a little bit higher because there's a lot of unknown variables compared to new builds, which is more straightforward. You're not going to uncover, you know, some problem you didn't expect.
Sometimes you do, but.
And it kind of scales based on the more expensive the build is, the lower that percentage goes, if that makes sense.
You know, like a $2 million project is probably going to be around the 10% mark. To jump to an $8 million project, we don't need 10% of $8 million, if that makes sense. So it's. We kind of base it on this sliding scale, but we use that percentage to help guide.
And I like the flexibility of this because then we don't really have to worry about scope creep or making sure that every single thing we're doing has been documented. And having to go back and have that conversation with the client of, oh yeah, we can pick that paint color, but it wasn't in here. So we're going to have to, you know, and it allows us, I think, the freedom to just go in and create and build that relationship with the client right from the get go, where there's an understanding and a respect of our time and their time. And it's just always worked for me.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: It's amazing. And I feel, I know that there are people listening saying, thank God I'm not the only one who's doing this. I'm always hearing, like, how it has to be done another way. So thank you for sharing that. Of course. I also do think it's worth noting that Tiffany does indeed serve clients in both Canada, where she is based, and the United States and hopefully, you know, overseas someday as well. So that has worked for her boutique studio across North America.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: Okay, so before we get into the dream and scheme meeting, specifically, can you talk about the philosophy behind it? What were you finding was missing from the standard questionnaire and discovery approach, discovery call approach that made you want to build something a little more specific, intentional and not as standard.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me, the thing that maybe wasn't missing, but that I think could have been improved upon was just that human connection and that relationship building, which I think especially at the start of the project, is so foundational to how the rest of the project is going to roll out. And I think another impetus for this process is we are moving into a world, for better or for worse, that is very AI driven, very technology driven.
And I think inherently in that world, we are going to come across mistrust of how much is being done by AI, how much are you involved? And I think I resist the AI movement a little bit because I love the human connection of design.
And so I really wanted to make sure that at the start of their client, at the start of our projects, our clients were really feeling that human connection and building further in that relationship, building that trust further, building this feeling of hospitality. And we really want to get to know you.
I talk about Will Gudera's unreasonable hospitality book all the time. I know you do too. And you know, he defines hospitality as making someone feel truly seen.
And I think in order to do that, you truly have to see someone and hear someone.
[00:09:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: That's the first step. And so we wanted to get them into the studio to really.
We start with the questionnaire. We have the ID co template questionnaire. It's fantastic. But to bring them in and then turn that questionnaire into a bigger discussion and then to see their reaction to imagery and just dive a little bit deeper and make them feel a little bit more involved, especially up front when it's still quite fluid and easier to involve the client. You know, as the design progresses, it gets harder and harder to take those opinions in because you're. You're so far along. But at the beginning, there's really that opportunity to have the client feel seen and heard.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: You said that you invite the clients into the studio. We can see your gorgeous studio behind you.
But you are working with clients even in other countries. Is. Do you insist that this is something that happens in person? Are there exceptions to that rule?
[00:10:36] Speaker B: There are exceptions as much as possible. We try to do it here, but it works obviously best for more local clients when we do have long distance clients. Like you said, we work with clients in the us. We are Canadian based. We have sort of adapted things to make this applicable to an online format. But I think you get the most out of it in person. If it's possible.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: So you have said that you do not believe in developing a concept cold turkey from a collection of typed answers. Can you expand on that? And just, I mean, I understand the human connection part of it, but I think there's also additional nuance to that. And I'm just wondering if you could expand as to why you feel like a type Dancer is not always the full truth answer, maybe, or the most clear answer.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I have noticed, as we've done the typed questionnaire, you know, you will get clients you can tell, really sat down with their coffee and took a lot of time and thought out really thoughtful answers and put a lot of thought into it. And then you will get the clients who aren't that into it. And their answers are very short, very concise. And you're missing a lot of that personal narrative that we try to weave into every design. So for, for us, a really important part of how we design is drawing upon feelings of nostalgia. I think that feelings of nostalgia really add to a space feeling like home. And sometimes you don't get those anecdotal stories about something from a client's childhood or, you know, I grew up with a cottage and it had this amazing porch swing or something like that in a questionnaire. And I think those are kind of the answers that we're trying to delve a little bit deeper into.
In some ways, the design scheme meeting is like our col turkey concept because we do come with ideas and then we use this to really get their feedback and their understanding before kind of formalizing that concept. If that makes sense.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely, it does. Okay, so walk us through the structure of the dream and scheme meeting. How long does it run? Who's in the room? What does the client experience feel like from the moment they arrive at the studio?
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, so client comes.
If it's an in person meeting, client will come. We'll welcome them into our studio. We always have some soft jazz music playing. We've got some treats laid out on the table. One of our questionnaire questions is what is their favorite kind of hot beverage of choice?
So we'll have that ready and waiting for them, whether it's a latte or cappuccino or tea, whatever it may be, so that they can already see that we're listening and we're paying attention to what their preferences are.
And when they walk in, we'll have a stack of the images which we're going to kind of go into later. We have their plans laid out in really large format.
And then you can See, our studio kind of looks how it looks behind me with fabric hanging up and some samples pulled. And so we're kind of getting them excited visually right from the get go.
It lasts quite a while because there are several parts to the process which I think we're going to talk a little bit about each a couple of hours. We don't want it to be exhaustive, but we do want to make it worth their trip in.
And I would say usually the husband and the wife are there. If it's a couple clients, sometimes it's just one person. The decision maker on the project is always there. And on our team, it's myself and our lead designer who are there to listen and take it all in and kind of guide the process.
[00:14:18] Speaker A: I love that you will get them the beverage that they mentioned in the questionnaire. I think that's such a nice touch. Will would be so proud of you for that.
So the meeting starts with a review of the client questionnaire because as you said, there is still a questionnaire that they've answered ahead of this.
But you are not just like reading through their answers. You are turning those answers into a conversation. Can you coach us through what are you listening for that the written answers did not tell you? And also guide us through how you are reshaping those questionnaire questions into a conversation starter and not just being like, okay, you said XYZ here. What happens next?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Of course. So we always review the questionnaire ahead of time and we'll kind of highlight some interesting things that we say, okay, I think we could dive a little bit deeper here. So we're ready to bring up those talking points. You know, not everything needs to be talked about again when they come in. So I'm not going to say you put you like a double sync instead of a single sync. Like, why is that? It's fine. If they want to sink, that's fine. What I'm really looking for, like I said, are kind of those anecdotes or those stories. So I think one good example is a question we ask is, you know, what are some holidays and traditions that your family celebrates?
Would say nine times out of a 10, that client will put, you know, Christmas or whatever it might be. And I'm like, okay, but let's talk a little bit more about Christmas. So then I will press them on that and say, oh, I see you celebrate Christmas. You know, what are some memories? Or how does your home kind of look around the holidays? What does that look like for you? And sometimes I offer my own Examples if the client isn't quite sure, yes. You know, when I was growing up, we always had two trees. One was on the main floor, one was in the basement. The basement one had all our crafts and our tacky ornaments, and the upstairs one was the pretty one for guests. And on Christmas morning, we could go down to the main floor to open stockings, but we couldn't go down to the kids tree where Santa came until my parents woke up. And, you know, so that for me is important to carry on now in my own home.
And so kind of warming them up so that they start to open up about what Christmas might look like for them or, you know, whatever they celebrate.
And then those are things that I can say, okay, so they want two trees. So I have to make sure I have a spot for a tree in the main floor and a spot, you know, and you're just starting to figure out who they are on a deeper level more than they can answer or, you know, their favorite restaurant. Well, what was it about that restaurant that you really loved? When did you go there? Was it a special occasion or, you know, and getting those stories again. A big part of it is just building that rapport and building that relationship, but another big part of it is what. What tidbits can I get and gather that we can then surprise them with later when we present their concept or their design that will really delight them and make them feel like they had a true impact on the direction we took the project.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: Do you have any examples that you can recall of things that you heard in this initial meeting and then were able to weave into, like maybe they found out actually at install, or maybe it was something that they even saw, like, in design presentations just, you know, months later.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I have one example that's kind of fun. And it wasn't so much about the design, but it was kind of about these things that make clients, I think, feel really special. And that was. We had a client telling us about how once his mom was shaking a bottle of ketchup and it exploded and it went all over the kitchen. And for months they were kind of finding little ketchup stu splatters and laughing as a family and things like that. And so when we turned their new home with their kitchen over to them, we actually put a little bottle of Heinz ketchup on their counter with a little ribbon. And it said, you know, for all of life's messes and memories, welcome home. And it was just kind of this nod back to this story from his childhood that we thought was really special. And it kind of made that moment really nice. And, you know, I think it's.
It's those moments that clients really remember. It doesn't have to be a big, expensive thing. It's a small $5 bottle of ketchup. But it made a nice difference for them at the reveal.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Absolutely. It feels instantly like home because of that.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Okay, so let's get in to the portion of the meeting called the Hundred image exercise, which I know you learned from our lovely friend Melissa Oholent from OHO Interiors. Can you describe it in your own words before we really get to see it in action?
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Yes. So the hundred images, like, like you said, I learned it from Melissa. I thought it was genius.
We instantly implemented it. And basically what we do is we gather 100 images for the project specifically. So these aren't from a saved bank or anything like that. We are taking their questionnaire. We are taking their Pinterest board. We're taking what we've learned about them at consultation and what we know about their house. And we're tailoring 100 images from that so we may use their Pinterest board as a bit of a jumping off point. And we incorporate our interpretations of what they're wanting into that where this is what I mean by kind of it's our initial cold turkey concept. We're not offering, you know, a super modern kitchen and then a super traditional kitchen. We're offering kind of a hundred images of where we think the project could go or where we kind of see it going, to get their feedback on that.
And then we show them each image one at a time and kind of sit back and watch their body language and watch their face and listen to what they say, and we'll kind of guide them if they need that. And we start to separate those images into piles of kind of love, really don't love. And some things are good, some things are better. Like on the fence, we call it.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Okay, so you say that you and your team are curating 100 images specifically for this project.
Are they, like, pulled from a library that you've built over time? Do you literally start from scratch from each project?
And also, is there any technique or method to making sure that we want to ensure there are five images exactly that were on their Pinterest board to make sure that they know we looked at it? Like, do you have any method to that?
[00:20:34] Speaker B: There's. So we do start from scratch for everyone. It's kind of our research and development phase of the project.
We will include, I think, Five is a good number from their Pinterest. We don't have a hard and fast rule, but just saying, okay, these are five images on their board that really resonate with us and we think will work great for their house.
And then the rest we're kind of developing from. A lot of it is initially we go through all our books in our library. We do a lot with books before we move into the digital platforms, and then we digitize those and get those printed off.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Okay, so what is the process of digitizing it from the book?
Like, how do you actually go about doing that? Because I think that's really exciting to people, and they, like, haven't necessarily thought through that.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: Yes. So a lot of times we'll just take a photo of it, then bring it into the computer and kind of flatten it out. Okay. Off that way. Or we will say it's, you know, we use the very talented Gil Schaefer a lot in our work. And so we'll often find a picture and then say, okay, can we now, like, search this online and find it online? Because a lot of times people's images are available both in print and somewhere on the Internet.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. So you are printing these images rather than showing them digitally. What is. Why does that physical format matter?
[00:21:57] Speaker B: I think there's just something really indescribable about it in a way, but that. That tangible, that sort of feeling that I think we've moved away from so much in the modern world of, you know, flipping through a design magazine and seeing an image and kind of tearing it out and pinning it up and being like, this is my dream. And I think there's something about having the images printed that sort of hearken back to that feeling.
That said, we do always have the images on our computer screen as we pass them physically as well.
And the benefit of that is, you know, sometimes a 4x6 image, like, if they're talking about a detail, we can zoom in on it so they can see it more clearly or we can chat a little bit more about it.
So that is something we do in tandem, but we always do. Yes. Have them physically printed.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Okay, wait, this is, like, getting very technical, and I'm so excited about it. Okay, so you said 4x6. Are all of the images 4x6? Do you do some at different sizes? So it ends up being like mood board looking? Or is it like 4x6 set?
[00:23:03] Speaker B: It's 4x6 set. So we have our nice. I like the nice, neat piles. I'm a bit of A nerd like that.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Okay. And is this on card stock? Are you doing it on a. A real toothy, nubby piece of paper? Is it like just a standard, you know, computer paper?
[00:23:19] Speaker B: So it's kind of. You see this kind of glossy.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: Thicker paper.
Good quality print so that they feel, you know, feels important.
[00:23:30] Speaker A: Okay. And then are you guys printing this in house with that beautiful little edge? Are you sending this off to get printed? Like, how does this get executed?
[00:23:39] Speaker B: We've done it both ways, but we honestly find printing it in house just easier.
That said, there are print shops who will absolutely do this for you and pre cut it for you and do all that.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: Got it. So you are printing on 4 by 6 with. It looks like you guys like a margin around yours.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Yeah. You have a little white border around each.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Got it.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: Image.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: So pretty. Okay. And then you are literally putting them in a very specific order because it's also matching up with how you can present it on your screen.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: That's right. And they're all. Do you see they has a number, so they're all numbered. So if we do get lost somewhere in the sauce, we can find what we need.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. I. I know I have a lot more questions planned, but I'm just like, you're blowing my mind right now. Okay. So you mentioned that your team stays fairly quiet during this portion because you do not want to influence the client's reactions.
What are you observing while they sort?
[00:24:42] Speaker B: I think we look at a lot of things. Again, things that we might not know on a questionnaire, which is kind of like body language, facial expression, you know, sometimes we'll show something.
You know, a lot of times we use this exercise also to introduce ideas that we're excited about, but that we know are pushing the client a little bit out of their comforts.
So an easy example would be something like a skirted sink. We might be, oh, I think a skirted sink would be really nice here. But not everybody loves a skirt, you know, and so we'll show them, and we kind of wait, and if they're like, ooh, you know, you can tell pretty easily by their face what they're first thinking. And then we don't jump in to say, oh, but what about we just let them sit with it for a minute? And I think that can be really hard when you're wanting to justify why you put that image in or what? And that conversation can happen after a little bit, but for the first few seconds, we really just try to let them take it in and give Their first gut impression of something. And, like, we are really there to listen at this point more than we are to talk. The talking will come a lot later in many other presentations when we're showing our concept and why we chose this and why we chose that. But this one's really more about taking it all in rather than putting it out.
So.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay. And I can imagine when you have, let's say this is a couple, a partnership of some sort, I imagine you also get to sit there and interpret. Okay, well, they really liked this, and they definitely. They made a weird face. Is your team, like, making notes of that? What does that information tell you? And then how are you translating that to be like, okay, well, when we present this, we know that Sally sue was a little hesitant with this, so we need to, like, how does. How does getting that nuance help you navigate also the dynamic of the relationship?
[00:26:35] Speaker B: It. Yeah. So you can see a lot in this initial meeting, too, that helps inform you about who's really, like, the final decision maker sometimes. Because if somebody's like, I don't know. And the like, I really like, and they're like, okay, okay, let's go with it. That can even tell you a lot about how the rest of the project is going to unfold and who is going to kind of be more leading the decisions and who's going to be more taking maybe a step back from that final decision making.
We do keep notes, notes on kind of everything. And then also we sort into those piles. So if one person in the couple, let's say, really liked an image and the other one wasn't as fond, that might go in the middle. The on the fence pile.
Things they're really in agreement on will go in. The love. Things they really have a strong negative reaction to will go into the not not a winner pile.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: What if something ends up in the not not a winner pile that you are like, no, no, no, this is definite.
How do you handle that part?
[00:27:38] Speaker B: So then that is probably where at the end of the 100 images, we may say, okay, there's a couple of things in this pile I'd love to just chat with you about now.
So we've given them their chance to go through all of the images and kind of say how they feel about things. And now's our chance to kind of provide some feedback and say, okay, you put this there. We really like this. Would you be okay if we showed you what this could look like? Or is it, you know, really a hard no from you? And we can kind of push those boundaries back a little bit at that stage.
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And then what kinds of things do you feel like clients consistently respond to that they never would have thought to mention in a questionnaire? Like, what are things that you're noticing that you're like? We can usually get this idea sold by doing it this way, that in a questionnaire it would have been a no.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: I just think sometimes seeing something that you might think you not like done in a really beautiful way can have a huge impact. Right? So somebody who might say, I don't like a skirted sink, to go back to that example, when you show them an image that has kind of the exact feel and vibe that they describe, that they want it and it has, a skirted sink can help to kind of change their opinion. Whereas if in a questionnaire you just said, how do you feel about skirted sinks? And they said, I don't like it, there's that, there's no, well, what about this? How do you feel it looks here? Look how pretty. You know, there, there's, there's that visual support to help you make that argument or, or at least understand why better.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: I also feel like there's so many things. I mean, someone's hiring you because, like, they don't know how to do this. And so there's just like an infinite world of, of choices that people don't even know are on the table. So having the physical images allows them to see a little bit of, like, what are those choices?
So how do you handle it when a client's reactions feel contradictory, when they love images that seem to pull in completely different directions from both them and their partner or even just from what they're saying?
[00:30:15] Speaker B: I think we really worry about that post meeting. In the meeting, we are not too focused on if something feels like it contradicts one or the other, because I think people are allowed to like more than one thing or like things that are a little bit different from one another.
And then it's our job after that to say, okay, of these two things, they feel really opposite, which they liked both, which is the right one for this project, and that's where we kind of take that.
So I, at that point, I don't worry too much about that because I know later I'll be able to distill that information into a cohesive design, if that makes sense.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And if even sometimes it's not. Which it's not either. Or it's like, okay, how do we marry these? How do we make it both work?
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Okay, so after the images are sorted, what happens in the next meeting or what happens next in this meeting? How do you move from what you've learned into floor plan conversation?
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So next week, we kind of set the images aside. Obviously, we've learned a lot during that process. And so when we go into the floor plans, we basically, basically, on this island behind me, will have all of their floor plans printed out in a large 24 by 36 format.
It will either be the. Their existing floor plans if it's a renovation, or the architect's plans if they've gone that far, or it's a new build, and we just start to kind of walk through the space. Now, if we've seen something in the 100 images that we're like, this would work really well in this part of the floor plan.
We will bring that up. But a lot of it is really just saying, how do you see yourself living in this room?
[00:31:58] Speaker A: Or.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: Or if it's an existing. Okay, what's not working about this space?
We were thinking we could take this wall out. How does that feel? Talking about all these things? You can get into the depth of something. Like, you asked your architect to build on this amazing sun room. How. How do you see yourself living in this sun room? Are you there in the morning? Are you more there in the evening? What are you doing in this sun room? You know, maybe they say, oh, I see myself puzzling in there. Then we know, okay, well, they're going to need a. A table to do puzzles at. Whereas if you hadn't had this meeting and you presented them a beautiful seating plan, they're going to feel like a piece of what they wanted out of. How they envision themselves living in that space is missing. And I think that, you know, I do a lot of mentorship calls on the expert, and I have had more than once designers say to me, you know, we got to this point, and the client said they didn't. Something wasn't right, or they didn't feel like they were involved enough in the process or something like that. And I think that doing this walkthrough with the Client can really help to kind of eliminate that happening down the road and that by the time you do present them with a floor plan and a furniture plan and things like that that they feel like, oh yeah, this is, this is kind of what I saw. And it's also your opportunity to say what about, have you thought about this? Would you like to do this?
And kind of guide some of their decision making in that way as well.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: I also like it from the concept of even in worst case scenario you've done this exercise, you do get later down and someone's like, oh well I, you know, I don't like this or that. At least there was this exercise done where you're like, well this is where we did explore that. Like that's when you should have, could have brought that up. But it sounds like this allows you to avoid that scenario altogether. But it is nice as like a safety net of like we did have these conversations of course.
[00:33:50] Speaker B: And I think nobody wants to get too far down the line and realize that they've missed something. Right. So the more touch points you can have early on, I think the better.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: It's also nice because this is at the beginning when like bulk, you're getting ready to collect the bulk of the financial commitment from someone. So this all still feels really fun and exciting and they're happy to write you checks at this point?
[00:34:12] Speaker B: Yes. They don't have the fatigue either, like the decision making fatigue and all of that. It's, it's, it is really fun and fun to see people excited because you know, when a client comes to a designer, they've been saving and dreaming and thinking and researching about this house probably for a very long time. And so to get, to really get that feedback from them and understand how they see the spaces, it's really a lot of fun.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Okay, so the floor plan walkthrough like you said, is done on large printed plans and you guys are writing directly on them. What does that physical hands on format make possible that a screen share or digital review lacks?
[00:34:58] Speaker B: Again, it's just that tangibility. There's a sense of playfulness and fun. We have markers out on the table. Everyone can grab a writing utensil. The clients are encouraged to like draw or sketch or write down. Some people just write down point forms or they'll say things and we'll jot down point forms right in the room. And it's just kind of this group activity in a way. And I feel like when you're all in a room doing that together, there's A lot of creativity flowing. There's a lot of ideas flowing and a lot of excitement.
You can get some form of that on the computer, I think, and we do with our long distance clients, but there is just kind of this fun, playful element to it.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Speaking of playful, the final part of the meeting is getting to explore your beautiful studio itself. Fabrics, wallpapers, finishes, materials, how do you structure that? It feels playful and intuitive rather than overwhelming, while also, like, making it worthwhile to your team. Like, you guys know what's in studio. So how are you? Have you pulled things specifically or are you formatting this so it's like they get to walk into the full library we see behind you, and they just like get to go to town.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So this took a little bit of learning curve because the first time we're like, why don't you walk through our studio? People were really, they go just kind of timid about it. And you could tell they did feel overwhelmed and not really sure where to start or afraid of pulling the wrong thing. So we do try to have a few things pulled of kind of. This is what we were sort of thinking, how do you feel? And then they can take those and sort of walk around and build from there sometimes. At this point, we've been meeting for a couple of hours, so we'll excuse ourselves, we'll go upstairs for a couple of minutes, say, you know, have a refreshment, have bathroom break, start looking through, we'll meet you down. So I think removing ourselves for the first a little bit gets people a little more comfortable to kind of flip through. We come down a couple minutes later, and then if somebody is really, you can tell right away if a client's into it or not. And if they're not as excited, we'll start kind of pulling. What do you think? But this, this could go. Let's look in our stripe drawer. Do stripes appeal to you? You can kind of guide it, but there are some clients who are really excited and be like, oh, I love this, I love this, I love this. They love too much, but it gives you kind of an idea. Okay, they like florals. They like this, you know, and then we'll kind of of at the end of that, say, give them a bit of a synopsis so we can tell you really like stripes. You're not a big floral person, whatever the case may be in and does that sound right to you? And just make sure we're hitting the right notes.
It can be helpful to start even with something as simple of, here's Some flooring. Here's some hardwood flooring and some few different colors. What are you most drawn to? Just to get the ball rolling.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: Tiff. That's so genius. Like the master class of we're just gonna go upstairs real quick and, like, get. Let someone start to dig in and, like, have playtime. So genius in how to structure not just how the project's going to take shape, but, like, what your relationship with them is going to be like.
Real quick.
In this dream and scheme meeting, are you considering.
Are you presenting everything, like, hard finish to soft finish? Like you're thinking of everything? You're thinking of the full project at this point? Correct.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Full project, but very high level. Nothing too specific.
[00:38:18] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: And even if we do have a fabric pulled, we tell them this might not even end up in your final design.
Just very early.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Got it.
Okay. And then we are. I'm going to make you walk us through some images so we can understand what it is you're looking at. But before we get into that, at the end of the dream and scheme meeting, what do you know about a client that you did not know before they walked in? In?
[00:38:43] Speaker B: I think we walk away knowing a lot more about the client. I think we hear a lot more stories about their children.
We often learn a lot more about their pet. Does their pet sleep in their bed? Like, where you know all these things?
We start, like I said, to hear more about their traditions and their values.
And even if we haven't learned or we already kind of understood where they were going from an aesthetic and function point of view, I think we walk away with a much better relationship and a much better understanding of who they are as people and as a family. And I think that's really the goal. As much as we gather really important information for the design throughout this process, I think it's setting up that relationship. So again, they really do feel seen and heard. Because my hope is that we really have taken the time to see them and hear them, and they can feel that, and they walk away feeling like we've got it and that we're going to come back with a concept that really resonates them.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: Okay. And because I will always ask the technical billing question in this meeting, it's you and your lead designer. So is this meeting. You said it's about two hours. Is that two hours of your time, or is that four hours of your time being billed?
[00:39:56] Speaker B: It's two hours of my time at my rate and two hours of my lead designer at her rate.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Perfect. Now let's see A little bit of this, like, live in action. Can you show us a few examples? I just want people to understand, like, are you showing images of a specific product? Are you showing whole rooms? Can you just show us some of the examples and kind of we can experience how you would be presenting that image to someone.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I have a stack here. This was a stack of yeses from a project we are currently working on.
So I'll kind of show you how that works. But, you know, something like this is obviously a more of a room focus shop lot. So this client project has a room in which they have two twin beds we knew are going to be going in. We love this sort of tenting of the roof line with the striped wallpaper. So that's kind of what we were hoping to get feedback on.
When we show it, we just take the first image, we've put it in front of them, they grab it, they look at it.
Sometimes they just say, yep, love it. And then, okay, that's great. Sometimes they'll say, oh, I love the. I love the striped wallpaper. You know, so we're getting all of this feedback while this is going on.
The lead designer has kind of the cheat sheet version of all of the.
All of the printouts. So if we know where. I don't think the room I just showed you is on these, but, you know, they'll be making notes here. Besides. So one rule that I have at the firm is that when you're with a client, you. You don't take digital notes. So whether it be typing on a computer or into your phone on site, I just think that as soon as you kind of disconnect and start, like, I feel like there's this moment that the client loses this feeling that you're having a.
And maybe I'm wrong. No, I love that. You know, there's nothing like when you're chatting with a friend and they pick up their phone and start texting. And I know that's a different scenario, but it might give the client the same impression.
So we do all our notes handwritten, and then we can. I mean, you can really easily put that into AI and have it type it all out for you without, you know, in the. In the past, that would have taken extra billable time, which we would have wanted to avoid. But now with AI, that's super easy to translate into typed notes.
So, yeah, they. Emily will write all of the feedback next to the image here so that we have that for later reference.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Okay, real quick, before you continue. So there is the physical copy you handed to a client. There's the digital screen that someone is looking at. It's larger. And then also your senior designer, Emily, has the printed cheat sheet, which looks like there's about two images per, so there's room to write. So this is actually represented in the room in three different places.
[00:42:48] Speaker B: That's right, exactly.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: See, that's why I made you do a demo. Tiffany. You didn't explain that there was a cheat sheet.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: There's a cheat sheet.
And so there's like, different things, right? This is not as much of a room. This is just really like pattern on pattern on pattern. So the bench and the drapery and the walls are all the same pattern. Maybe we're thinking that that could be a cool technique in a room. So we're kind of seeing that we will have pictures of just.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Have I been in this project, Tiffany?
[00:43:15] Speaker B: No, not this.
[00:43:15] Speaker A: Okay, okay, okay. Because the first couple images, I was like, wait a minute, there are.
[00:43:19] Speaker B: You might. You probably will be in this project one day.
This is currently ongoing. Or, you know, something might just be this, which is not.
[00:43:27] Speaker A: Not.
[00:43:28] Speaker B: There's not that much going on in this photo. But we're just waiting to see, you know, how does the client feel about fabric behind.
[00:43:34] Speaker A: And you're literally saying, like, no words. Like, you're probably not in complete silence, but you're not teeing it up at all.
[00:43:42] Speaker B: No, we just give it. We do give a little spiel at the beginning to say, you know, we're just looking for your feedback. Don't hold back one way or the other. If you don't have any feedback, that's fine too. No pressure. It's really just your gut reaction.
But, you know, some. Some things are really detailed and then some things are more pulled back. So for this project, we showed this. We love the transom. We are doing transoms now throughout the house. And that's something that. Without this image, they may not have gotten the idea of what that transom would look like and feel like.
So that is. That is part of our meeting. We make our piles.
All of these images, I should also say, live on a Pinterest board, a client specific Pinterest board. And then after we're done, when we narrow this down, even from their love images, we try to narrow it down to about 10 images that are really representative of the project. And we delete all the other images on the Pinterest board so that we have a fresh kind of like, this is the project as a visual representation
[00:44:48] Speaker A: in 10 images of just 10 images.
Wow. So, I mean, that feels like a pretty, like, curated, like, edited list. I don't want to say it's like a blank slate, but it's like, yeah, okay, now you guys start designing. These images were not the design process.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: That's right. And that's why these then lead into the concept. So those 10 images will land on their concept boards. When we go to present concept, we will use them to sort of start picking a color scheme and some patterns and things like that.
From those images, we really move into more of a concrete concept. And then once that concept presentation happens and is approved, then we move into the design. So there's kind of these three major touch points with the client before we even get into the design, which is the initial consultation, the dream and scheme meeting, and then the concept presentation. And. And I think, again, like I said, setting up that really heavy onboarding, like start heavy part of the client involvement allows us to really kind of step away from the client as we move into the design and be really representative of what we've learned about them early on, but enable us to really hit the ground running with the design and move quite efficiently throughout the rest of the process.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: Tiffany, can you walk us through a little bit of what the concept presentation looks like? Because. Because I'd just love to know where this dream and scheme meeting starts and ends versus the concept meeting. Because I think for some people this is a little bit of the concept meeting. So what does concept look like for you guys?
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah, so concept from us is much more distilled.
So like I said, it's down to kind of those ten images by concept. We've named the project, so we usually give the project a name name.
It's typically rooted in something natural, so a flower name or something in nature with a little description of how we feel that item or that name represents or embodies their project and what they're hoping for. For the project, we have a bit of a mood board, and that's less actual room images and more kind of feeling and some of the more. More family and memory things that they've talked about. So, you know, if they talk about puzzles, we'll have like family doing puzzles and kind of more of a. Like a true mood board, if you will.
And some colors, some initial colors. Five, I think, usually initial colors. And that's sort of our high level distilled concept.
And what we also present to them at Concept is a preliminary furniture plan. And from that preliminary furniture plan, we've also made a conceptual budget for Them for the furnishing stage.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Got it. And to me, being someone who knows nothing, when we say furniture plan, it's essentially like this room is going to take two sofas, a coffee table, three end tables. It's like what is going into the space? Not this is the sofa.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:47:54] Speaker A: Great. Okay. Thank you. That's super clear. Okay. Do you have any. Any references or memories of this meeting totally surprising you with where a client landed and like a reaction you were not expecting?
[00:48:11] Speaker B: We do have some, you know, we have this client, he's wonderful. But it's the first time that we've worked with solely just the. The man. He's actually a single guy and so we're really used to working with women throughout this process. And we presented him with some things that I thought, ah, he's are going to go for this, you know, like a lot of decorative elements. So a lot of, you know, trim around pillows with. With onion trim and trim along drapery panels and a lot of kind of more decorative elements. And I was like, let's see what he thinks, because this is what I'd like to do. And he absolutely loved it. And he said, I love all this stuff. This reminds me of, you know, growing up at my parents house. They had pillows like this and all of that stuff. And so we had hit this green light that. That I might not have been wanting to hit without doing this exercise. Right. I might have pulled back a little bit on that.
So he surprised me in a really great way of being really into these more decorative elements.
So that's one example.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: I love that example. Thank you.
How has offering this level of. I just think that this process, this hearing you explain this meeting, like, completely romanticizes the job in, like, the very best way. And it makes it sound so exciting from a client perspective, it sounds exciting from a designer's perspective. This sounds really fun. How has offering this level of immersive onboarding affected your client relationships throughout the rest of the project?
[00:49:47] Speaker B: In so many ways, it really is fun and it really is. Is what I think I set out to have more of. When I decided to scale back my team, I was missing this client connection. We had so many projects on the go, so many different teams working on different projects that just wasn't possible for me to connect with a client in this same way. And to be back here feels so good. And I think it affects the relationship because the client knows that I'm really interested in their vision for the home, that I'm not just enacting kind of what I want or what I want in my portfolio or, you know, what I think is best for the client, I'm really there to listen to what they want. Because as much as I love a great portfolio image, at the end of the day, we are creating homes for people, right? Homes that people are living in. Homes that are holding some of their most sacred moments with their loved ones. Homes that are holding them on their worst days and uplifting them on their best days. And for me, that's what I love about the job and that's what I love about design. And if you don't have any idea of who your client is at a deeper level, other than they like white walls or whatever it may be, how are you going to create that for them? You know, And I think that's the part that's so exciting for me and I think, I hope that they can really feel that, that and you build a friendship early on when creating these early face to face meetings. That can kind of carry you through the project, carry you through maybe some tougher moments. Every project is going to have its hiccups or its delays or its tough conversations, but having this foundation makes those things a lot, a lot easier.
[00:51:34] Speaker A: Are there other specific touch points you can outline in your process that have, have a similar, like, really tactile feel? Are there other places that you get to carry this like whimsical, romantic, creative, exploratory experience that happened later in your process? Because I, I just knowing how interior design works, like sometimes it feels like this part's all fun and exploratory and then it doesn't feel warm and fuzzy like this necessarily. Again, maybe design presentation and then hopefully at install all.
[00:52:08] Speaker B: Yeah, those are really the like design presentation is a lot of fun because we have them in again and they come in and this back island is totally spread out with all of their finishes. They can touch fabric, they can pick up, you know, hardware samples. I think that's a really fun element.
After that, you know, they'll see us at site quite a bit and you know, we have good chats at site and then install is really, really the, the big moment. Something that I have been talking to my team about wanting to incorporate is some type of like a lunch or a dinner more in the middle of the process when it does feel a little bit less fun. Just saying, hey, we know you're kind of in the thick of things right now. Why don't we all go out for dinner, our treat. Let's just kind of relax and have a good time. To kind of, you know, it's. Building a house can be a long and a stressful and an expensive of process for clients. And I think, you know, maintaining that relationship through it, I, I, that's something that we've really been thinking about. How can we implement more of that?
[00:53:10] Speaker A: When you do those site visits and a client's going to be there, do you bring their hot beverage of choice with you?
[00:53:16] Speaker B: Yes, yes, we do. And every time they come visit us, we have it ready.
[00:53:21] Speaker A: That's so sweet. Okay, so for a designer who wants to try a version of this with their own client clients, where would you tell them to start?
[00:53:31] Speaker B: I think you sh, I think it's really easy to start if, if 100 images feels like a lot for you. Start with 25. You know, start with some images, have them in, give it a go. It's easy enough to have their plans printed out and, and just try it and see how it feels. Like I said, the first time we did it, there were some awkward moments. Like when I said, go look at our fabric, they didn't know what to do.
And, you know, yeah, the more you do it, the easier it gets, the more you kind of learn. Okay, this client's a bit quieter, so I have to step in more. Or, you know, it's just, I think if you wait for things to be perfect, you're never going to start anything. So you just kind of have to dive in, have fun. It's a ton of fun. Just give it a try.
[00:54:16] Speaker A: Okay, and then what is coming up next for Tiffany Lee design that you are excited to share with us? Us?
[00:54:23] Speaker B: Well, as you know, we have just wrapped a pretty big project in the US In South Carolina. So we've just photographed that and that feels really great because I feel like it's been a long time since we've had a whole home to photograph.
So Lauren Miller shot the still photography for that and then your team Quinn came in and did all of the video content and we've made a YouTube video. So next step is I guess, launching a YouTube channel, which is really exciting. I can't wait, wait for people to see that.
And then like I said, right now we're in kind of the closing half of four large new build projects. So we're really excited to see those finish up and kind of give our portfolio a big refresh over the next year or so.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: So exciting. Tiffany, this was so fun. This was really inspiring. I feel like there are people listening right now who are like, oh, my God, thank you for giving me a fresh breath of air in this job that I have felt a little underwater in. So this was lovely. I also have to ask you and we'll have to put it in the show notes because I'm sure you don't know off the top of your head. Everyone's going to want to know what printer you use to print these out, so I'll make sure that we include that. Unless you know off the top of your head.
[00:55:40] Speaker B: I don't. But I do.
I have it and I will send you the link.
[00:55:44] Speaker A: Okay, perfect. Tiff, thank you so much. I'm sure. I'll talk to you in five minutes. This was fantastic. Thank you for being here.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Here. Thank you for having me.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: Ten years ago, IDCO Studio started with one idea. Interior designers deserve business tools as beautiful as their design work. A decade and more than 12,000 designers later, we're celebrating with the biggest sale in our history. For 10 days only, everything in the shop is 30% off. Templates, toolkits, spec, books, all of it. Use code DECADE30 at checkout at IDCO 10 years down. And here's to your next chapter. For more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or at patreon.com the Interior Career Collective thank you so so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations.
A big huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time. I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living specifically for interior designers. Visit Materio Co to get started.
