[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hi and welcome to the Interior Collective Podcast, the show where we dive into the art and business of beautiful living. Today, we're thrilled to welcome my dear friend in total design muse, Ann MacDonald, a Minneapolis based designer known for her layered, artful approach to creating spaces that feel both timeless and uniquely personal. She was just named one of Architectural Digest suggests New American Voices in 2024 and Ann's work spans residential havens and vibrant commercial spaces across the country, each filled with thoughtful details, natural materials, and a signature warmth that invites people to linger. Anne's portfolio is as varied as it is beautiful, covering historic home renovations, new builds, restaurants, and even ultra feminine showrooms. In this episode, she shares the nuances of designing for both residential and commercial spaces, revealing how she adapts her process, project management and communication strategies to suit each. Ann's also going to give us a behind the scenes look at how she weaves her signature layered style into even the most functional spaces, ensuring they feel anything but typical. Plus, we'll hear her thoughts on the importance of networking and community within the design world and why she believes collaboration is key to any designer's success.
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[email protected] the Interior Collective or linked in the Show Notes Join the Interior Collective Patreon community and let's continue this conversation. Hello Anne and welcome to the show. It's so good to catch up with you and I can't believe you're here.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Me neither. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Anastasia, we have had the immense privilege of hanging out a couple times in real life. I came and visited you in your office. I. I forced myself into your office, I should say, while I happened to be in Minneapolis one day. And then you popped down to design camp to just hang out because one of your besties was keynoting Heidi.
So I've actually gotten some good time with you over the last year and a half.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Has it been two years already?
[00:02:47] Speaker A: But I'm super excited to really dig into the business side of things because when we're usually chatting, we talk business and we also get a little bit more design inspo based. I just geek out over your designs and so I'm excited for everyone to be learning from you. I always like to start our convos with laying a foundation for those who don't get to hang out with you all the time. Can you tell us about the structure of your studio and how your team's made up? Who's on the team? How many people are working there?
[00:03:15] Speaker B: I have a pretty small team, I think compared to, I don't know, some people, I guess I have. So. So I have a studio in the north loop, Minneapolis, which is a really cool neighborhood here in Minneapolis. I'm based in Minneapolis, so our projects are all over now and the studio, we've been here for two years now. And my team is made up of myself. As I consider myself principal designer. I don't consider myself like, sort of the overseer of the creative. I'm really, I am in the trenches with the design. I. I have a lot to do with every project. So in that way, we do stay small, so I can kind of stay in those trenches. And then we have another designer, Morgan. She is pretty new to my firm. We brought her in last winter and she's fantastic.
And she is our other interior designer. And then Amanda, my sister, who is a Design Camp alum. She is my operations and logistics person. And without her, I literally wouldn't be here. She's like the perfect compliment to my crazy brain.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: So I love that you guys have that dynamic. And Amanda is amazing. I feel like she could teach Design Camp, honestly.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Yes, same.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: So a couple follow up questions already after question number one, but I think your studio is just spectacular. And I think it's super interesting that a studio, a firm of your size, decided to go out and rent a pretty sizable office space for a small team versus working from home or renting like a co working space, that kind of thing. How vital has that decision been to the success of your studio? Because I hear a lot of times on this show people are like, limit your overhead. Keep it as small as you can for as long as you can. So I'm just curious as to. Has that been successful for you, why you feel it's been successful and why you made that decision in the first place.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it like, overall, it's been one of the best decisions I've made for my company, which, you know, is a pretty young company, relatively speaking. I started in 2018. Officially. It was like, at my kitchen table. It was pretty ad hoc for the first year or two in terms of just sort of winging it. And, and you know, I had a couple people that were helping me early on in sort of a part time capacity, but it was pretty scrappy. And I think in that way I could get by with just sort of doing it from literally like a corner in my kitchen. But as most designers know, it quickly turns into a very physical job in terms of schlepping or, you know, the samples and, and all, just all of the stuff that, that you need to, to have in order to, to make this thing happen every day. So it was a dream to have a space, but honestly, I just kept it so tight for. Not like it was for so long, but certainly the first part of COVID I, you know, that hit and it was like all of us were just like, all our projects went on hold. You know, what were we going to do? I certainly wasn't thinking about renting space at that point. Like, no one was. And then as all designers know, the sort of the, the down. The deluge of clients came into co. You know, a little bit into Covid. And that's when I look back at that timing and I'm like, man, what? I set myself up pretty darn perfectly in terms of timing with that, you know, like, I was really just getting going on my own. And then Covid hit and then I had the chance to just take whatever I could possibly take because there was so much work. Um, it was just plentiful no matter what size firm you were or who you were. And so I really just got to, to say yes to a whole ton of stuff and grew quickly during that time just because of the sheer amount of projects that we were taking on. And I don't think I ever took on too many, but there was sort of this, this sweet spot where it was like, all right, we're, we're drinking from a fire hose. We could do it. And, and that's when, you know, kind of a couple years into that is when I was like, I feel like I can do this. I feel like I can branch out and get a space. And it started a conversation with a friend of mine, Michelle LeBlanc, who is the owner of Mel, which is a, an amazing women's clothing company. And we started chatting back and forth about how she needs a bigger space and I needed space. And we were like, well, we're in adjacent creative firms. Why don't we do this thing together, find space side by side. It could be really fun. Like, we can have, you know, fun lady times. And, and so we did that. We started looking for Space. And then we came up with the space in the north loop. We're in Minneapolis in the north loop area, which is just a really fun place to be. And it's a. It's. Honestly, I love the commute. It's like I get to take off my mom hat in the morning, my wife hat, and drive to work, feel like a big girl kind of rolling up to my office.
And then I get to do the same thing when I go home. It's like I get my. I get to listen to NPR and just sort of regroup, get in my brain space for a different an. You know, it's awesome. I. I've loved every. Every day of. Being in this space has been honestly, like, just a. Just a solid move for my firm.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: I'm so excited because I must have come in. You guys probably hadn't been in the studio very long if you've only been there two years. I probably less than a year that I came by. A couple questions. Do you feel like because your sister works with you, having a physical space that was outside of your home or, you know, meeting up at a coffee shop helps to maintain that relationship? Yeah, the. The relationship and the dynamic between were co workers and we're sisters. Was that a. A part of the decision or something? You just look back now and say, yeah, that probably makes a big difference.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: I. It wasn't part of the decision. With Amanda, it's always been so easy. So, like, there's never been anything that felt forced, never a moment when it felt like I was trying to put a square peg in a round hole. You know, like, even when she first came to me in. In sort of this deluge of clients that I was talking about, and I was just sort of, you know, just trying to get through each day and literally survive from project to project. It was a wild time. And I. Working out of my basement at that time, I graduated from, like, a corner of my kitchen into the bas. Like a basement side room, and. And actually had. And that was again, in the guts of COVID My team at the time would come over and work out of my basement. It was just very scrappy. But it's. It's again overhead. Like, it's what we had to do. And when Amanda first came to me or when I actually begged her to just help me a little bit, it was just really. It was really natural. And she was like, yeah, I can help. I knew her brain was opposite of mine. There was never any moment those first few months when she started working for me and Then eventually quit her, her full time job and, and worked for me full time, which only took a matter of about six months. Where I thought, man, we really need to come up with some good boundaries. It was always like, oh, this, this just works. Like this is, this is working for us as sisters friends. This is working for my company. We from the start knew that we didn't want to mix too much of work into our sister time together. So for example, like, we got. One of the first things we did was actually get slack because we were like, all right, rather than texting each other constantly. And again, this was such a learning time for my, my company as a whole. But I was like, we've got to take things out of our personal sphere. Like slack is a great way for us to DM each other through the day, keep it professional. And then, and then her and I will actually like text pictures of our kids during the day on our phones like normal people do. Right. But then anything work related is through slack. So there's these very like great boundaries that we've set up and it, it just makes it easy for us to continue these two sort of facets of our relationship, you know.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: Two logistical questions I'm circling back just a little bit. You mentioned that you don't consider yourself creative director. Like you are lead designer. You are doing the, the work, the things. Does that mean that you are doing drawings, elevations, sourcing, like literally all of that? Or are drawings, elevations being outsourced to a third party? Or are you literally doing the things?
[00:11:52] Speaker B: So I'm not a CAD lady. I know it, I don't like it. It's not intuitive for me. I, I much prefer hand drafting and I always have, so. So for cad, we've got a scats. Actually, I learned about scats from a design camp person, which has been incredibly helpful. They're an awesome drafting company out of India and they've just been a great resource for my company. So if I need some heavy lifting with drafting or if we're just at capacity like Morgan is, takes a lot of the CAD stuff for us and if she's that capacity, then we sort of scouts in our, we have scouts in our back pocket. It's an awesome backup plan for us. They're super professional. It's just been great to work with them. So, so what I'll do is I'll go through and, and yeah, I mean I'm doing a lot of it. I, I definitely do concepts, I'll take projects, I'll, I'll kind of get Going on most of the furniture, most of the textiles. I'll come up with the big sort of hero moments. I redline plans. I love cabinetry, so, and millwork. So like that's been a real focus for me is just continuing to, to get detailed with that stuff for each project. It's funny because I wouldn't say that I am a control freak. I sound like one right now. I sound like I am. My, my fingers are just like up in it. But it's only because I love it and I get like that's why I'm doing this. You know, it's, it's. I have such an excitement around design.
The business side of design is the part that is sort of drudgery for me. So as long as I can stay, stay in the creative aspect of it, it, it absolutely buoys me every day. It makes me love what I do and go home happy. So it's important that I stay focused in that. And ultimately man. Years ago someone said to me something I think about all the time and it's, my clients are paying us. They're paying Ann McDonald Design for the creative. Like they're doing it. They're giving us that money because they can't do that part themselves. The logistics and the project management stuff, that's, that's supporting the creative. But the creative should be primary. And so for me to still maintain the sort of majority stake in that is just really important. Now we have enough work where Morgan, my other designer has a lot to do with supporting me. And eventually, you know, the plan would be for her to take projects on her own. I would love to get to that point. But she's still under a year for us here. So you know, she's still learning a lot. She's still learning like how I think about things. And there, there's a certain amount of sort of onboarding that happens especially with the creative process.
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I think that's such an important thing to really think about internally as you're considering growing your team or not growing your team is do you want to be a business owner or do you want to be a designer? And there absolutely can be a hybrid, but very quickly you move from designer to people manager or business owner. And it's something that I in my own businesses have gone through and had to kind of toy with realizing, hey, I like the creative stuff, but I actually don't, don't love exporting the logo files. Like I don't actually need to be doing all of the nitty gritty stuff and I can be a lot more big picture and I really respect and admire just kind of getting permission from you that it's okay if you just. If like you want to design and someone else can do the business part. Okay, last question before I continue with my actual official questions. I love that you and Mel went into looking for space together. I'm curious. Super technical logistics, the space that you ended up getting and it's a super cool historic warehouse space up on. Are you on like the third floor? Ish. Second floor, second floor with giant ceilings. It's so cool. It's like so city and awesome. Was it one space that you guys like co signed a lease on and divided or there was two spaces next to each other and you guys were like, let's just take them both.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: You're exactly right. So we, it's one space and we looked at the space sort of as this gigantic whole mass.
And it was funny too at the time. She was like, she hadn't really officially asked me to design her space yet. And we were walking through it and, and I was, she was like, so give me some ideas. Like, like do you think you could maybe take over here? Like, would this be my space? And you know, I had never looked at space for myself before. So, like, coming out of my. Literally, a corner of my basement, I was like, anything is gonna feel like the Taj Mahal. So it was such a trip, like walking through in these beautiful gigantic windows and just being in the. In this really incredible historic space and beginning to visualize AMD here and then to be side by side with Mil. So, yeah, we. We walked through, and she sort of casually was like, well, why don't you start drawing up some plans and why don't like it? Do you want to, like, design it? And I was like, yep, sure. Yeah, totally. Let's do this.
So we built a wall separating our two spaces, and she has majority of the space. I think it's kind of like 3/4, and I've got a quarter. And then we have a set of French doors that connects our space other than sort of the common hallway, so that we can just peek at each other and wave and, you know, it's fun.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: That is so cool. And again, a really ingenious creative solution for looking for space. I really, really like that it's an adjacent industry, but not the same industry. I think that that can remove, you know, the possibility of competition. Even though I really believe that there's enough work for everyone. But just the potential for feelings to arise that some things are proprietary would be trickier to share with another designer in your space. So for it to be an amazing. Such a cool clothing company is so fun. So I'd love to now dig into kind of your signature style, which I feel like you're really known for, bringing a modern feel to spaces with, like, a timeless artistic touch. How did you.
How did you develop this design approach? And what do you really believe makes a space feel right?
[00:19:51] Speaker B: For me, a space is always. It always needs to be anchored in something that feels like it's been around for a while. So whether or not I'm working on a historic space, and again, whether that's like, a hospitality or commercial or residential, and I don't have. You know, I've got some hospitality and commercial projects. The majority of our stuff is residential, but. But a lot of our stuff tends to be historic. And. And how I identify historic might be different than some people. I really just see it as an old space. It doesn't need to be precious. That's. I've never looked at design in. In terms of precious, so it doesn't. There doesn't need to be, like, a certain classification or a certain architect to make it historic. I'm sure some people would disagree with Me, but, you know, a humble south Minneapolis story and a half bungalow, which is actually what I live in, Craftsman bungalow. It's just as historic to me and important and valid as a, you know, 10,000 square foot, stately, of note architectural home on some important street in whatever city. So, oh my gosh. The question just what do you think?
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Makes. What do you think? How did you develop your success, your style? Yeah, yeah. And has it always been like, innate in just the way you think and your style hasn't evolved, or has it been, as you been more exposed to different types of projects, you really honed in on it?
[00:21:20] Speaker B: So again, like, like this, this sensibility of, of something needs to be anchored. And, and if, if you're in a historic building or home, you innately have that sense of, of an anchor. That space has an opinion. It's giving you something, it's feeding you a variable. So are you going to listen to it or are you going to put a bandaid on it or try to ignore it? I think some people choose to, to lean really far into it and like the preservationist aspect, which I am not. I tell client, clients that right off the bat that I don't walk into a space and think, this is a craftsman, so let's come up with a bunch of stickly furniture or, you know, that sort of thing. If that's your jam, fine. It's just not how I think about it because it, it kind of. I feel like there's something a little too static about that. I, I want to come in and bring really the sense of my client into the space. And I always tell clients, like, there's three variables to my equation of how I think about designing. One is that the existing space, what I just explained. The second is who my clients are. Of course I need to think about, are they a young family?
Do they hate the color green? Do they love to entertain? All of the things that designers know like to, to be thinking about. Right. And then the third is my lens. And hopefully, hopefully that is the part that they're paying me for and they take seriously because I do have an opinion. And, and my lens, my background, how I got to this point at, you know, in my mid-40s, it. I'm bringing something to the table. So that lens is an important piece of a puzzle. And for people hiring design firms, hopefully those clients take that part seriously. Like, like, what does my designer say? What is in their portfolio? How are they talking about this space to me? Do I feel comfortable with them? Do I trust them? You Know, do I imagine myself handing over loads of money to this person or is there sort of this block? And I, it really, it has to be a relationship. So like, that lens, that relationship, who, how I sort of am with those clients energetically is, is a two way street. It's, it's imperative that it works.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: So, so it sounds like it's working because ARC Digest just named you a new American Voice, which is so huge. I kind of laugh because I was like, girl, she ain't new. But I, I was and am so excited and so proud of you. I'm curious that the fairly recent announcement was in a few months. Do you feel like that recognition has influenced or affirmed your studio in any way? Has, like, what happens after something like that? Like, are you flooded with new inquiries? Are you like suddenly saying yes to Britney Spears and anybody who calls. I'm just curious after a designation of the caliber of that. What, what really comes of it.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you and me both. I'm sort of, I think everyone here is sort of like holding their breath a little bit. Like, what, what's going to happen? What are we going to see out of this? It was so wild when I, when I was first told that that was happening, you know, that we were being bestowed upon this, this honor. And yeah, I, I, I can't say that they're like, our phone hasn't been ringing off the hook. In fact, I, I talked about this on my Instagram stories a couple weeks ago. Like, it's a really weird time, it seems, for the pipeline in general. Luckily we have some clients that are sort of built in and they're large projects and, and they're sustaining us for, for the next sort of phase of time, you know, six months out or something like that. But, but it's weird. I'm, we're, not, inquiries are pretty, not quiet for us, but they're definitely a lot less than normal.
Which I think for any business owner, if you're being honest, is, is concerning. It's, it's like, and I talk to my design buddies about this like a lot. Like, hey, how are you guys feeling? Are you quite. And often what happens is like you're, you know, you don't, the phone doesn't ring for three weeks and then all of a sudden you're, you're, you'll sign three contracts the following week or something crazy. Um, and so we're just sort of sitting tight. Luckily, to reference the, the, My voice isn't really new, but whatever, I'll take it. I do Feel like I've. I've done this long enough, and I'm old enough to know that or to find a sense of security in the fact that, like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm amd is sticking the course. Like, I'm on track. I feel really, really good, better than I ever have about where my business is at. So, yeah, it's. You know, the new American Voices thing was just, like, icing on the cake. It's so fun to be recognized by peers that you really admire in that way. I mean, it's just an incredible honor. So it is.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: It's such a big deal, and I was so excited to see you on the list. It's so, so well deserved. Anne. Okay, foundation covered halfway into the episode. Now let's dig in because you gave us a little backstory about kind of how you. I don't want to say fell into, but positioned yourself brilliantly to take your first really cool commercial project with your. Your studio mate, Mel. I want to dig into the difference between commercial design and residential design, but more so how you're doing. It feels like it's completely interwoven. Your commercial spaces feel just as cool and hip and warm and inviting as any of the homes you design. So I'm like, teach us everything. You're so brilliant. So first, let's start with any key differences in how you approach designing for a commercial setting versus a residential one. Let's start with what's different. No matter how hard you try, it's just different.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, off the bat, it's like you have to think about ada. You have to be thinking about just accessibility, accessibility as a whole. Right? Like, who's. Who's going to be coming into the space? How many people are coming in? Are the people really caring like you do, or like the owners do about the space? I mean, these sort of very basic things, Right. And I've worked on a couple of restaurants, too. And honestly, the difference in my head, I almost have to look at, like, the Mill headquarters and restaurants as they're. They're different, you know, because one is. Or. Or the restaurant part of it is truly a commercial space of hospitality, but commercial in terms of the durability aspect. So thinking about flow, thinking about what the. What the weight, staff of servers, back of house, front of house, all of that stuff. And one of the people that I worked with on a. On a restaurant, on a bar project actually, that I'm working on now, he's opened a number of bars and successful bars and restaurants. In his career, and he's just great. And he's been around the block for sure. And he said to me after one of. One of the initial presentations, he was like, you know, you're getting really in the weeds here on some of the details, which. Right. Like, that's what designers do. That's what people pay me to do, is get in the weeds. And he was like, what you have to realize is, is in hospitality and in restaurants in particular, people just don't. They. They're not paying attention to the baseboard. And. And now there's a time and place where they do. Like, Ken Folk's restaurants. Those are exceptions to the rule. Right? Like. Like.
[00:29:12] Speaker A: But.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: But they also have the. The funds to hire Ken Folk. And for Ken Folk to pay attention to the baseboards, most restaurants don't. Which brings me to the second point. Especially in, like, hospitality, how they go about finances and how they go about thinking about what kind of money they're going to put into the space is. Is really different. So, for example, your hero moments, your upholstery, you know, maybe a light fixture detail, like those things, like coming up with two or three pieces that are. That are the heroes and leaning into that and then everything else, assuming that you're kind of on a tight budget, which you probably are, you really need to back off. So. So prioritizing those things is a little different, I would say residential. It's just different that way. I'm not really high and lowing it quite that extreme. I love a high and low moment in residential, but it's not to the extreme that it is in hospitality.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: That's such a great call out. Thank you for that. I'm wondering if you feel like client expectations themselves shift between residential and commercial projects, and what adjustments are you making just from an expectation standpoint?
[00:30:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that in commercial, overall, it's just more trans. Transactional. Like, residential is so emotional. There's often, you know, a marriage or a partnership of some kind, and. And that's emotional. There's money, which is emotional. Commercial is just, you know, they've already probably designated the amount of money that they want to spend on something. Right. So then they hire me, and. And it's like, all right, we've got this much money to make this happen. How are you gonna, you know, you tell us how to make it happen with that much money, More or less. I'm kind of glossing over some of the details, but that's kind of how it shakes out. So it's just. It's it's just more transactional, it's less emotional. Not that people don't have opinions because especially when I've worked with these, like, smaller sort of family run businesses, there are strong opinions and, and there are strong opinions about how to keep their brand active within the space. Right. Like they don't want it to look like an Ann McDonald design, whatever. They want it to look like their brand, but better. And, and so that's kind of where my lens comes in on that particular piece. But yeah, just, just less emotional, which is a nice respite, frankly.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Residential, I bet. Can you break down how you handle pricing for both types of projects? For us, is it the same no matter whether it's commercial or residential? Does it differ? And once you answer that, can you just go ahead and tell us how you price? If it's hourly, flat rate, combo price per square foot?
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah. So for our commercial projects, we do charge. It's, it's really the same. I, I would say the only difference in how we, how we do it is for residential. We always come up with a proposal and our proposal includes the amount of estimated design hours that it will take us to complete the project. For commercial, it's, it's just a trickier animal. And I, I've found that in order to get these projects because I'm, I'm hungry for hospitality. It's, it's really exciting to me. And so I'm in kind of like a yes mode with it. Like, I just want to say yes. So I need to be flexible and I need to adapt and I can't quite have the rigidity of our residential formula with this. And so we do, we, we build in some flex space. We're like, all right, well, I'm not going to just give you a regular proposal like I would because that's going to scare you away maybe. Right. If I tell you that I'm going to charge, you know, whatever 75 grand the first year of design, they'd walk out the door. So, so how can I, how can I make this happen in a way that they're going to end up saying yes and I'm still going to get paid and everyone walks away happy. So it ends up being a little bit of a consulting role. Often that's, that's what I've done thus far. And it's, it's actually worked out really, really well. We've been profitable with it. It's kind of an easy thing for us to do. And, and I'm cutting my teeth on, on, on more and more of that stuff.
[00:33:25] Speaker A: So, and just to clarify, when you say you're coming on board more as like a consulting role, you're just billing back hours.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. So, and, and some. You know, I'm thinking of two different projects. One was a little more reactionary. I was coming to the table with, with ideas and it was a little more of a conversation and I was just billing hourly for that. The other one was more of a proper design role. You know, I, I came up with a design, I presented, we went through edits, they're building out, you know, all of that. I just didn't come up with an initial. This is how many hours it's going to take us to do it. It was like, this is how much we are an hour. You know, let's see where this goes. And, and they would just pay monthly. So. Yeah. So. And to answer your question in terms of our fee structure and whatnot, because I do want. It's been so beneficial for me when your past guests have been just really forthright with this stuff. So I'm going to be forthright as well. For what it's worth to people listening. So we are hourly and, and we've changed. Amanda, when she went to design camp, whenever that was a year and a half ago, she actually came back with, with some. Or a year ago, maybe with some great insight that she learned from, from the couple days about fee structures and how to charge. And she is in charge of all of this stuff, by the way. Like, she really manages this aspect of the business. Obviously we're in it together, but she really has a, has a grasp on it. So for a long time we were $180 an hour. The whole team, like everyone charged that, that same rate and that worked fine. Recently, like as in the last couple months, we've changed to myself charging more. So Now I'm charging 230 and we charge my team at 180 an hour. And we are a hybrid. So we charge hourly for design and project management. Procurement is a 12% fee of whatever the spend is. And we do install and site visits are flat daily rates.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: Got it. When you have you plus your other designer or Amanda in a meeting or on a project, are you charging that 230 +180 at the same time or you just put in your rate and then.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: No, it covers. We do. We charge both. And in that way, I know some people just do the like senior and, and kind of the other one is not charged. I. We don't do it that way. For whatever reason. I. I find that, you know, often that double time is just as valuable, like. Like having two people there, like, I'll be. I'll be on site like Morgan, and I'll do a site visit and. And Morgan is. Is, you know, paying attention to all the details and getting all the notes and. And sort of keeping track, like project managing. I'm there like. Like creative inputting with the client and coming up with ideas and. Well, both of those things are completely valid and. And in my opinion, the client should pay for both, so they do.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Thank you, Ann, so much for sharing that. Everybody's giving you a little round of applause because I. I do appreciate that candor so much, and it is so helpful just to hear what anybody else is doing. So thank you for sharing that. I want to get into project management nuances between the. And commercial, because I do feel like that that can be a little tricky too, particularly in timeline. Things can vary greatly. I feel like residential, typically, there's some ebbs and flows, and commercial can be a little bit more strict, like, we got to get this done. How does that impact how you manage your team and workflow between the two?
[00:37:07] Speaker B: You know, honestly, with. With the projects that I've been on, and maybe I'm. Maybe it's an anomaly.
I just think there is no rhyme or reason to either you're gonna have. I mean, this year, 2024 for AMD has been the. If there is a theme to our year, it's delays. With residential, it's just like, whether it's permitting or financing for clients, the hurdles that they're trying to jump through for that, people just delaying, making choices on things, it's been all of it for us. And so it's been a really weird year for us in that way. I, you know, I look at our. Our commercial projects, and I don't see that much. I. I get it. Like, yes, when someone says go on a commercial project, it's go time.
And in the same way, you know, for example, with one of my commercial projects, we ordered chairs for an entire restaurant, and in the 11th hour, they decided that they didn't want to do those chairs. They. They wanted to do other chairs. And they had to delay the opening of the restaurant by three weeks in order to get these other chairs. And it was like, well, okay, you know, we're all building toward this one moment. And then all it took was the owner saying, like, actually, I changed my mind. We don't really have to. So I. I don't think there's a steadfast rule for either. And I think this is just goes to show like how incredibly. Oh, I mean, a roller coaster this industry can be because you're just, you're constantly shifting to what other people's, you know, sort of wins are, unfortunately, sometimes.
[00:38:47] Speaker A: From a logistical standpoint, are there significant differences? Just let's say for instance, with a receiving warehouse, because a commercial space, maybe you can have stuff sent straight there, or do you still send it, send it to a warehouse like you would with a residential project? Just logistically, what can someone anticipate when they're ready to take on their first commercial space?
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I would, I would really run it the same. And maybe that's just how AMD has always done it. And you know, you, you kind of mentioned the, like, the aesthetic too, or the vibe that our commercial projects have had being quite residential or homey or. There's like a vibe to them. I mean, that's really. We just look at it like I want to walk into a restaurant or a dental office or like wherever, and I want to feel really cozy and at home and, and anchored. And so I don't design them any different. I don't think our project management, they're, they're very similar. And Amanda might actually have a different thought on that. But I, I actually think, you know, we, we run them through a receiving warehouse, we install them as we would any residential project.
You know, there's, there's going to be some, some differences here and there. There might be more phases, but frankly, with residential, there's phases too. I'm. And yeah, I'm coming off a year where it's like you can't expect anything. So I'm, it's, I'm probably a terrible answer to this question right now, but.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: No, it's a great answer. I think it's an honest answer and that's what matters. Are there any particular categories when you're thinking of budget allowances that someone should, should plan for to be drastically different than working on a residential project? So for instance, you were saying, you know, pick your three heroes of a restaurant space or a showroom space and really let them shine. And then you can, I don't wanna say cut corners, but you can really value engineer other parts of it. Do you have any recommendations on what those key components to let be your hero should be in a space?
[00:40:47] Speaker B: I guess I don't understand the question. The key components.
[00:40:50] Speaker A: Do you mean like, like focus on, focus on your upholstery or focus on the wall treatments focus on the lighting and then the chairs, although apparently really mattered to that owner that delayed your opening, but ones that you feel like, you know, in a commercial space, those are going to get wear and tear heavily. So maybe those don't need to be the biggest investments when you're allotting your budget.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: Yeah, so totally. And, and how I, how I think about that for each space again is going to be different. You know, I'm thinking about like the headquarters for Mill and a restaurant. And because they're really two different animals and how they interact with the public, they're just, I think about them differently. So, but for, for a restaurant, I do think that upholstery, like a banquette, getting that right, Thinking about the details of the banquette, like maybe it's not just the upholstery that you're, you're incorporating, but maybe it's, maybe there's a tuft or some sort of like cool edge detail and, and you're having a custom made, of course, you know, like really going for that, like, what is the statement? What is the, how big is the space? I, I, I think this thinking about this bar that I designed, like it was lighting, Lighting is so important to me in like any and every space. I think any designer agrees with that. So no overhead lighting, like bringing in the sconces, coming up with cool like battery operated table lamps, which I think are so dope that there's like, it's so plentiful now. They're everywhere and, and then this really amazing banquet that we designed and then everything, everything else can kind of recede. Like we've got the, we've got the, the mega banquette with the cool fabric and the cool details that runs basically this full length of the bar.
And then, and then we just did like little bistro tables, for example. They weren't anything precious. They weren't like actual vintage. I think we sourced them from forehands and so they hit a price point. They did what we needed them to do, we didn't. But we need like 25 of them. We didn't break the bank, you know, so we put our money into the upholstery and the lighting and then, and then everything else can sort of, you know, fill in the blanks.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: So I love that. I can't wait to see this bar project finish up. Question. You mentioned vintage really quickly in commercial spaces and something like the Mill headquarters, where it's their office space and certainly they have buyers coming in. They have guests frequently, but it's not the same as people walking into a restaurant. Like, it doesn't have that type of foot traffic. So I feel like in a showroom, like, mill, that you can get away with reupholstering vintage pieces, and there will be some longevity there. And then I think of, like. I don't know if I can even say this on the show, but, like, I think of the proper, which we love. We always host Design Camp at. And Kelly Werstler. Basically, everything's vintage, and it's constantly being swapped out. And I know this because we host our events twice a year there. So we're very familiar with each and every piece that are in the public areas.
How are you thinking of incorporating vintage? Or do you just kind of stay away from it or keep it to accent table smaller things?
Because I feel like vintage pieces or reimagined vintage pieces are definitely a huge part of your aesthetic.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say that I lean even more into vintage for. I. I don't know if I lean more into it. I just think, Vin, it's hard for. It's hard for me to. Honestly, I was designing a project, Just been designing it in the last week. Like, kind of deep on this one project. And at one point in the last couple days, I had to be like, okay, Anne, just pull yourself out of first dibs. Like. Like, get into some new production furniture. Like, you know, like. Like, get out of vintage. You need to. You need to bring in some other stuff. It's so easy for me to default to that space. And I think it's in part because of the time I've spent in Round Top. I've been going there for many years now. And I started back when it was a little different than it is now. It's grown up so much. It's changed a lot. And I got to know some of the vendors down there. Amelia and Cassie, Keith and Doug from Enaby, and these really incredible vintage and antique dealers. And once you get in with dealers and you start really learning about this stuff and. And what makes a piece durable and how you can reupholster it, or does this piece need new foam? And then you're good to go for another, you know, 40 years with it or something like that. Like, I think. I think those relationships are invaluable for people that source vintage, because it's not just about, like, oh, I'm gonna come up with a little, you know, a side table, and I'm gonna look. Look on first dibs. Like, obviously, it's about your comfortability as A. As a designer and everyone has their own thing, but if you really like vintage, I would say, like, talk to the dealers, like, get to know these people. And even as friends, like, it just creates such a beautiful, like, sort of secondary layer to work for me that I know all these people across the country that I can literally text and be like, hey, I need a, you know, just last week, like a pair of leather deco club chairs. Like, what you got? Like, like, who's got. Where are they? How can we find them? Are that. Can they be domestic? I'd rather not pay for shipping across, you know, the ocean. So I don't know. And then just learning about these pieces, learning about these great designers and artists who have made and designed these pieces over the decades, learning more about the decades, the esthetics, the vernacular, it's been. It's been such a highlight of my career, really.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: I want to dig into this concept of getting to know your dealers. Round top in particular. P.S. i'm going to text you separately. Can we please coordinate your spring visit? I have a bunch of girls flying in and I need to make sure I get to see it. But as a newer designer, or maybe not a newer designer, but someone who's looking, who really wants to start getting into vintage more. So I personally feel like talking to the dealers can be a little intimidating, especially if you're not like, hey, I've got 100 grand and my post it notes with my name on it that I'm about to go drop in your booth. Like, how it doesn't feel super approachable to me, and maybe that's because I'm not sourcing for clients or I don't have a hundred grand to spend at that one booth.
Please tell me otherwise that when you do start asking smart questions or like what your. Your tactics were to start really just that initial conversation. And we can figure it out from hello. But like, how do you get to hello with the dealers?
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, do your research, buy art books, learn about these, learn about the decades in furniture. Like, like some of these books that I have on furniture over the centuries.
I'm sure my kids look at these books and they're like, wow, this is the most boring thing I've ever seen. But the amount that it's taught me and how I can then go into conversation with these people and I don't know as much as they do. And that's the point. You ask them questions. Maybe, maybe there's, you know, the gateway drug is a. Oh, I'm trying to think of, you know, whatever, whatever it is that Noguchi liked. Everyone sort of knows Noguchi, so. So lean into Noguchi. Buy. Buy the book that talks about his career and his art, and then look for one if you want to source one. Noguchis are actually. Originals are really expensive, but it's a great sort of gateway, you know, find something that interests you, learn about it, find a dealer that sells those pieces and then go from there. And then it's just like, it'll just come, you know, like, there's so much.
[00:48:47] Speaker A: I'm so curious if you feel like beyond just on the dealer side of things, having that education, that self education about time periods, styles, individual pieces, how does that help you with your clients, both residential and commercial? Does being able to educate your clients on those make it easier to sell them? Or is that something that they're just like, you're the designer, I trust you. You're telling me it's cool. I believe it. Just put it in.
[00:49:17] Speaker B: I learned, I learned right away. Like, when I started out on my own and I had this thing about vintage that was just really exciting to me. And I didn't know a lot about it, but I loved historic homes. And so there was something there about, like, working on old houses using vintage from many decades, not just the decade of the. That the home was built and how I could sort of marry all these things. And I think that's why ultimately I went, I started going to Round Top as soon as I did that. And, and, and I, I was on fire for it. Like I was. You can't ignore someone's passion for something. And I was like a sponge, right? So then I would have clients that either were attracted to the idea of a designer that incorporated some vintage or maybe that. Maybe at the time, I mean, I was, it was so haphazard from the start. Like, maybe they just had my name and gave me a call and didn't know who I was. But as soon as I start talking about this stuff with somebody, I'm excited. They get excited, you know, even if they don't really care where that side table came from or the lamp or whatever in their house, if I start telling them that story of like, man, this is a, a chess, like a chess that they would give married couples. Like on your wedding in Sweden in the, in the 18th century, and it's painted in rosemaling, and here's the history of that. And, you know, like, how can someone not get excited? And you're looking at this piece with the, with the name of the couple and the stuff, I mean, it's just. It's so cool. So I think it's such a. For me, it's just been like a passion project that's turned into a big part of my business. And yes, clients love it. Like, I.
I almost always have to sort of report on the story or the background of almost all the pieces that I'm selecting that are vintage for my clients, because why not? Like, life is about that stuff, you know, like, these pieces have a history and a story, and they bring this strong sense of. Of humanness with them. And so, like, let's honor that a little bit. We don't need to get crazy about it. But, like. Like, just knowing that that thing has this past and you're bringing it into your home, I think helps to even anchor your home.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: Speaking of the human elements and the stories that your designs create that are so personal on the residential side, I just feel like your spaces evoke a human element so much, whether that's an individual or the whole family or whatever that looks like. From when we're working on branding for someone, I always approach it as we need to be talking to one person. Like, we are telling the story of one person, and people are either going to personally identify with that or aspire to that. And I'm wondering if there's a common thread in how you handle commercial spaces, because when you're handling commercial spaces, it's not nearly as personal, and there's not that personal narrative. You need to be appealing to a much broader audience. How are you still telling such a personal narrative in your commercial spaces? Because I do think that you're particularly gifted in that.
[00:52:29] Speaker B: Thank you. That's super nice to hear. I mean, to me, it's. It. It all boils down to that. The. The personal. Like, I. I'm so not. Not in this thing, doing this thing, like owning a business, which can be really, really hard sometimes to. To just be spitting out the same stuff. It needs to be personal. And. And if anything, are all the spaces we inhabit. Gosh, I think about Europe even, and. And how you walk into some of these buildings or restaurants or cafes or wherever, and there's not all of them, but. But some. And. And like, they have a personality. Like they're saying something like, someone a long time ago said, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to put the. The marble flooring in, and I'm going to do this light or that light or whatever. Like. And I think that's so important for brands in general, we're not trying to please everybody. We all have our own points of view and our own way of doing things and saying things and emoting. And so for commercial projects, it's easy with residential because you get to know the clients. It's emotional, right? For residential or for commercial, I mean, I think behind any brand, there's emotion. There is a founder that feels emotional about their business. So what is that? Like, stir that shit up. Like. Like, what gets them excited? How did they make the brand.
What colors feel intuitive or natural to the brand? It's just really easy. I don't know. It's easy for me to sort of tap into that. That side of. Of people, and. And I think people's businesses are no exception. They're incredibly personal. At the end of the day, as.
[00:54:10] Speaker A: We get towards the end of our show and I have to wrap up with you, I do want to touch on networking and collaboration. For instance, with your amazing news of being named one of 80s New American Voices, and you've had some work published in really amazing publications lately. How has building relationships with other designers influenced your career so much?
[00:54:36] Speaker B: I think, like, networking was always something that I felt really shy about, like, didn't want to do. It felt a little too contrived, a little too phony. Not that it's phony. It just felt like being social on the spot to me is always a little tricky. You know, I think I'm just so incredibly, like, take it or leave it authentic, that it's. It's hard for me just to, like, show up and be like, all right, I'm gonna. Yeah, yeah. Small. Exactly. Exactly. So. So for a person who never.
Not never just like, shied away from any sort of networking and. And starting a business, you know, and then Covid hits, and I'm in my basement, and I'm literally feeling like. Like, just out. Out in the world. Can. Does anyone even see me out here? Like, I am all alone. And I think so many designers feel this way. I know I. Any designer I talk to feels this way, feels like they're alone. Even if you have an office and a huge team, it can feel very isolating. So getting to know people, other designers in particular, small businesses, like, people that sort of have a similar makeup or setup, has been so critical for me. And I think in a way that just makes me feel like I'm not crazy. I'm not alone. I'm actually, like. So often, you know, there's one person in particular that I'm really close to, and we we talk a lot, and we don't really. We don't talk about creative. We don't talk about, like, hey, what kind of wallpaper would you use here? Like, we. Every once in a while, like, once a year, we might pull that out just for fun if we have, like, nothing else to talk about. But really, it's been about. Like, hey, how do you deal with this when an employee does this? Or talk to me about your fee structure? Like, why did you. Remember when you went back and did that thing? Like, how did that work out for you? I mean, it is business, and it's emotional. It's like, hey, I don't feel like I can do this anymore. Like, I'm at the end of my rope. I really. I'm about to have a nervous breakdown. Like, talk me off the ledge. Like, it is equal parts talk me off the ledge, and I should also say celebrating the successes as well. Like, having that person there in your back pocket to be like, oh, my gosh, I was just named New American Voices. Like, you know, there are moments when. When even that stuff, even the excitement, you can get really cynical really quickly. Like, but what's the next thing? And. And how am I gonna. You know, let's move on. Like, am I gonna be. If I. Whatever. What's the next publication? Or. And. And there's that person to just be like, hey, just take a second. Like, this is incredible. And it's so nice to have that. So talking off the ledge, celebrating success and then having that business, just sort of bestie to, like, digest, you know, with you, it's. It's critical. So for. For newer designers or for designers that have, like, haven't been able to really tap into that or feel like they don't have the time for that, I would say, like, get your ass. Make it happen. Like, find a way that you can find somebody to. To share that with. Because it's. It's just. It will. It will just make things so much better for you. I promise.
[00:57:57] Speaker A: I am curious. You know, I love things to be very tactile, tangible. I'm like, tell me how specifically. So I believe all that. I think, listening. Everyone's like, yes, that makes sense. But still, like, how do I. How do I find that person? So I'm wondering. This is a loaded question. I know the answer to it. I'd love for you to explain. Explain. Have there been any particular key partnerships or mentors that have helped be your cheerleader? I know one in particular is a big fan favorite, but, like, how did how did that relationship start out? Especially when we are talking about someone who was someone that you want to reach out to that maybe in your own eyes feels out of your league, if you will. Or like, or, you know, maybe they're also local and you're like, oh, you kind of have the ick. Because, like, maybe they don't want to talk to me because I'm in the same area. Like, how do those conversations start?
[00:58:55] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. So, well, for. For Heidi and I, the.
[00:59:00] Speaker A: The.
[00:59:00] Speaker B: The. It. It. So. So honestly, it was. It was just Instagram and that's. That was my. My answer to this question is just going to be was we just started like, DMing. And this was. You know, she's blown up so much. This was. And she was. At the time, I felt like she was just the crumbs of a crown. Like, it. It did feel like she's out of my league. Like, is she ever, you know, like, this.
[00:59:23] Speaker A: This is crazy.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: She's so much better than I am at. At all the things. And. Because again, I think I was scrappy. But that's what we started DMing. Just, you know, whatever about. I would. I would just say something about her posts or. And we just hit it off. I don't really know how to describe it other than some people, you do that. And if you're. If you're active on Instagram and your DMs, if you. I run my whole social media, unfortunately. So, you know, I'm very active in my DMs, and. And there are just some relationships that sort of form very naturally with people, and it's great. And so that was one of them. It was just really easy. And it was funny because the first time we were like, DMing a bunch. And then DMS are annoying. And so we're like, well, again, this was kind of a long time ago. We were like, maybe we should set up like a Zoom to meet. And so we set up a Zoom. And it was like the most awkward, like, first day at Zoom. And I think we both. I think it was during COVID which was funny. I think people were just zooming, like, very beginning of COVID And I think maybe I had, like, a glass of wine. It just felt like a weird date. So I think both her and I were like this. Let's. Let's not do that again. And then we just started.
Yeah, seriously. No, but. So we're. We're a big on voice memos. We're voice memo ladies. So we'll both send each other voice memos. And thank goodness. I love voice memo and photosheet, and that's really how we communicate. And that's the other thing is finding a way that is easy to communicate with the person. Honestly, sometimes I've. I've initiated friendships with some designers, and it's like, we kind of don't know how to get each other. Like, like, where. Where and how in time and space do we actually have a conversation?
And for. For Heidi and I in particular, it's just morphed into this voice memo thing, and it's easy, and that's why it's been able to just, like, keep going so well. So. But I think it's worth. It's worth a shot. Just like, however you think that it could happen, find. Find ways to. To respond to people. You know, if there's a vibe, like, run with it. And I've also been having pretty regular dinners with some local designers as well. Julia Miller and Melissa from oho, who are just two lovely ladies. And that relationship has also been really important. You know, two people that I guess could be considered competition to and. But it kind of doesn't matter. Like you said, there's plenty of work for everybody, and for us just to. Just to have, like, local comrades is. Has just been really, really nice.
[01:02:01] Speaker A: I.
[01:02:01] Speaker B: The more the merrier.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: You know, I will always credit Audrey Scheck for this. She moved to Austin, forced me to be her friend, put me in a friend group for girls night with a few local designers, and I was very much on an island. Like, our clients are all over the world. My teen's all over the world. And I was happy going about that. And she would be like, nope, we have a date. You're going out. We are all gonna go talk.
[01:02:25] Speaker B: And we.
[01:02:26] Speaker A: And it changed my life. And she knows that that few people have had a bigger impact on my life than Audrey. I love.
[01:02:31] Speaker B: Well and honestly, Anastasia, I will say here that you. Your personality, like, these sort of things, podcasts, they're just kind of a lifeline for designers. Like, I know that everybody I know listens to this. Like, we talk about it. This is a point of. Of reference, of topic. It's like. It's just there's this, like, common thread that's sort of woven through us that you can see the connections, and it makes us, all of us isolated islands, feel like there is an ocean between us that connects us. Am I. There's an analogy here. Somehow there's a boat. Anastasia's the ship going from island to island.
[01:03:10] Speaker A: I don't know well, I'm happy to be your sailboat. I'm honestly so glad that you and Heidi connected over your voice mem memos, though, because I swear to God, if someone sends me a voice memo and I'm like, it. I'm like, text. I need to be able to read this. I cannot listen to this out loud. Send me a text.
[01:03:29] Speaker B: So I know it's not for everyone.
[01:03:31] Speaker A: Man, but I'm so happy that you two have each other.
As I let you go, I'm just wondering, as I like to close every show, what's coming Next for Ann McDonald Design? What can we expect from you in 2025? Because we're there now.
[01:03:49] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Two things that I'm thinking that are, like, kind of top of brain for me. One is my ongoing collaboration with Isla Porter, a cabinetry company that, if you haven't heard of, please, I'm just gonna plug them here and say, go to the website. They do custom cabinetry and millwork. They're a female founded. Two incredible ladies that founded it, and I'm just such a huge fan. I've been brought on to design a dream kitchen. And it was super fun. And anyway, so kind of ongoing discussions with them about how AMD and Isla Porter can continue to collaborate together, which is super fun. And then secondly, I think in more of, like, an honest perspective on business, 2024 was. And I promise I'm going to answer the 2025 question, but 2024 was a weird year, like I mentioned for AMD. It was. It was a lot of delays and putting things off, and. And it was also a year where we really decided to invest heavily in our. In our business. I hired PR for the first time. Shout out to the ladies of the hours and, yeah, just. Just do things. I did the house. Beautiful show house. That. That is not a free endeavor for anybody ever wanting to do something like that. Things like that, that just take a lot of time. Money, effort, intention, planning.
And that combined with the clients being sort of, you know, dragging their feet for different reasons. It's. It's been a little bit of, like, what's going. What are we doing again? Like, are we designing things? Is this the. Is this the goal here? So 2025, I am so excited because, like, now, like, it is the last couple weeks, it was like we hit go on all these. It was like everybody at the same time decided that right now was the time that, oh, we need design, like, go time. So we're finally back into the swing of that. And it feels so Good. And it's going to carry us well into 2025 with the amount of projects and just the scope of projects that we have, some really large ones. So 2025 is, is. I'm really, really looking forward to some of the pain that 2024 caused in terms of spending money on your business. Right. Like writing that ship as well as, you know, the benefits of, of doing some of these things of some of the PR stuff that I've done and, and, and we'll see how that all shakes out.
[01:06:12] Speaker A: But yeah, that is so exciting. And I know you have a lot of projects that are nearing the finish line, so I can't wait to see those come out. And this was the best chat ever. Thank you so much for coming on board. I hope to see you very soon. I think there's a little rumor I might get to be seeing you soon.
And maybe you don't even know that, but let's just say your PR team is at work. Your PR team is at work. Thank you so much for your time today. We are always cheering you on and we'll talk soon.
[01:06:41] Speaker B: Same, same girlfriend. Sounds good.
[01:06:49] Speaker A: For more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more, don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes or at patreon.com forward/the interior collective. Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. The biggest thank you to you our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible. Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
