[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hey and welcome to the Interior Collective podcast where we explore the art of design through the eyes of industry experts.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Today we're diving deep into the world.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Of historic home renovations with a very special guest, Jamie Haller. For nearly a decade, interior design was Jamie's personal passion, fueled by her love of restoring the charm, charm and character of Los Angeles historic homes. But when the pandemic hit, Jamie turned that passion into a full time career, blending her background in fashion design with a unique approach to honoring a home's history. From being featured in Architectural Digest for her work on a mid century Pasadena ranch to creating timeless spaces that speak to both past and present, Jamie's expertise lies in respecting the original narrative of a home while infusing it with her signature bold use of color and pattern. In today's episode, Jamie walks us through each phase of the design process, from the initial client onboarding to collaborating with architects and craftsmen, sharing invaluable insights on working on older homes and offering advice on how to break down the hours involved in each stage. Get ready to dive deep into the intricacies of bringing history to life with a modern touch.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: We are so excited to invite you to dive deeper into the Interior Collective Podcast. Episodes now on Patreon unlock access to in depth analysis, helpful downloads and worksheets created with each podcast episode. Subscribers gain behind the scenes access to additional resources like examples and screenshots of guest spreadsheets, construction documents, and so much more. Your subscription also gets you immediate access to our private community of interior designers and our team of industry experts ready to answer your questions. Subscribe
[email protected] the Interior Collective or linked in the show Notes. Join the Interior Collective Patreon community and let's continue this conversation.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the show. Jamie, I am so excited to have you. This feels very full circle for me.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here as well.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: We had a lot of people submit questions specifically for you on our Patreon channel. So you're getting hit with a heavy hitter. So I'd love to just dive right in. But for people who don't know who Jamie Haller is, this is your crash course and it is a name that you will never forget after hearing this podcast. So before we begin, let's break down. Can you just give us a breakdown of the design studio? Because there's multiple arms of your business, of the design studio. What does your support team consist of? Like, are you completely a one woman show? Do you have employees? Are you Outsourcing things. Let's just get an understanding of kind of where you're working from.
[00:02:59] Speaker C: Sure. The interior design studio is made up of me and mostly one other person. She has been my right hand now for about four years, three and a half to four years. We work on everything together. I would say, you know, we'll outsource specific things we need as we need to do that. But for the most part it's me and her. I guess I've made a pretty significant choice to not expand like I thought about it many times but because I have a lot on my plate, it's easier for me to manage less people, to be honest. So I work with her and I think the way we split it up is I really am definitely the lead on a project. I'm overseeing all of the creative direction and the story making and the initial sourcing I might be setting the tone in, you know, as regards like pattern and color and floor plan and design sensibility and choices. And then she's really backing me up on a technical level. She does all of the cads. She does a lot of the internal project management. She is managing the, we call it a design schedule, but essentially the FF and E schedule. She's overseeing all of the construction documentation and organizing the client folders. I start out as the main touch point for a client in the creative design phase. And once we get to like a design sign off, essentially it's that, that switches and she becomes the touch point for, you know, sending invoices confirming that we've received payment, the purchasing. So she's handling everything from setting everything up in studio designer to making the purchasing and managing the procurement schedules and tracking and communicating with people on site like contractors or project managers. We don't have an in house project manager. We do that ourselves or lean on the contractor. Every project is different. We aren't, we aren't really taking on huge, huge like new build style projects. It's just not my style. Most things are smaller and residential. So it's, it works, you know, it's been okay.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: Can you give me an example of some of those things that have come up that you have outsourced to independent contractors? Just for those listening who feel like, you know, a two person studio is kind of where they feel their sweet spot is too.
[00:05:49] Speaker C: Sure. I think, I mean definitely like architecture. We don't have in house architects where if we need an architect, we are reaching out to people we know who are architects and bringing them into projects as needed. You know, I know we'll get into it. But like I work on a lot of old houses in more of a restoration based way. So I have a network of people who are like, this is my window guy and he might not be who the contractor wants to use, but there's still people who I prefer to use or my wood stripping and stain guy like that really understand old homes. So they're not people you would employ in a design studio, but they're people that we lean on for, you know, what can be done. It's like, it's a little bit different I think when you're working on an old home, who you're leaning on, what, what are the people? You know, we have our upholstery people. Occasionally I've used somebody else to go and source for me if they are strong in textiles. Like there's somebody I know who's done that for me. I mean, it's really the normal people in your network.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Right, Right. So definitely more so trades. Unless like you said, your right hand is doing your CAD drawings. That's not something you're outsourcing.
[00:07:07] Speaker C: I'm not outsourcing CAD and I'm not doing the like 3D rendering. I know you can do that outsource. I'm not doing any of that. It's more. It's much more analog.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Got it. Okay, perfect. Before we can keep talking about the design studio, we just like have to address the elephant in the room because you are a renowned shoe and clothing designer with a cult, cult following of every it girl out there, Jamie Haller. And so I'm just curious how his fashion informed and inspired your interior design projects because it feels so intertwined watching you from the outside.
[00:07:44] Speaker C: Well, thank you for saying all of that. That makes me feel really good. I mean, I think it feels different on the inside than it looks on the outside. Obviously. I feel like I'm just hustling 247 to deliver all of the things that I dream up essentially. And I did start. The funny thing is I started the shoe line and I started working with clients as an interior designer at the same exact time in 2020. But my fashion design background, actually I've been a fashion designer for 24 years now. And so I had been working in that industry for a very 20 years before starting my own brand. I also had been working on homes as a personal business side hustle for 10 years before taking on clients. So those were two sides of me that already existed. So the fact that they both became businesses that were kind of taking off at the same Time is just happenstance. Like, it's just it. Both. They both happened at the same time. And I think because I. I decided that I was going to go for it at the same time, I stopped working for somebody else, basically, and started putting all of the attention on myself.
I think it definitely informs how I see interiors. Like, I think being a fashion designer, you develop skill sets that carry over very easily. And even if it's not, you know, if you're not stuck in a house, you're stucking a shirt or a sweater or a pair of jeans. And for me, there's this strange. Communion's the wrong word. But, like, they're very similar, and they're also very different. But if I am, I've been a denim designer also for many.
Most of the years I've been a fashion designer. I've worked in denim. And I also like. So, for example, if you're a denim designer, you are trying to create this authentic version of something based on time and how it's worn and patina. And you're always, like, trying to recreate or achieve this ideal version of a patina in a way. And working in a historic home, it's like the same value sense, right? So, like, I'm a certain type of fashion designer, and I'm a certain type of home designer. And even though they're very different, my values transfer over very seamlessly. Because if I'm, you know, working on a 1905 home, I have this same, like, respect for and goal of preserving or embracing or finding, again, that patina and age and time value in a home, you know, and it's like moving towards the thing, not trying to cover it up with something else. Same in fashion. The funnier thing, I think, is that I express different sides of my personality through, like, in. In my fashion style. Personally, I am very manish or boyish or I'm not overly feminine. It's just not my personal style. I.
I'm very understated and neutral. I like navy, black, green, like tan. That's about it. You know, there's no color in my fashion world. And oxblood, you know, and in. When I design a house, I might be like, here's a pink floral wallpaper. So different night and day. I would never wear a pink. I might wear a pink floral dress in a very specific way. But, you know, like, it's. There's a lot more color and a lot more like, pattern and whimsy. And it's. They're very different, but they're still both very Authentic to me. And I've actually struggled in trying to understand how they both say the same thing coming from me, because they're so different, but same skill set. Yeah.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: I'm curious. Back in 2020, when you launched Jamie Haller, the shoe and fashion line, as well as Jamie Haller on the design studio side of things, and started officially taking, you know, paying clients, was it kind of this thought process of, hey, let's see which one sticks? Or you were like, I'm launching both of these, and they're both going to be huge?
[00:12:30] Speaker C: No, I mean, honestly, it was.
I wish I had all, you know, like, you just never know. I. I had been working at my last job, which was a wonderful job for many, many years, for 12 years. And it was the beginning of the pandemic and Covid. And to be honest, I.
I think it's not unique to me, but I make it sound like it is. I went through this period of feeling like I had no control over my job or my income or my.
Somebody telling me that I'm now on hiatus. Like, all of that bothered me at a very deep level. But obviously that that was just what it was, and all of these other parts of me existed, and I decided that I'm just going to say yes to everything. Like, I was so tired of being behind somebody else and not getting to do exactly what I wanted. That when Covid hit and I.
Nobody cared about me first. You know what I mean? So I just was like, well, if no one's going to put me first, then I'm going to put me first. And I said, I also had time all of a sudden, like, I had so much time, like we all did, to kind of reflect. And that's what my reflection was, is I'm going to put me first. I'm going to say yes to anything that happens. I don't. I didn't care at that point what happened anymore with my job. It was, what's this next 2.0 look like for me as a person? And so my husband and I, we used to buy and restore homes, and we would. You know, sometimes we moved into one, sometimes we would sell it again.
And we got the. I got some press from that home, and then people started reaching out to me, and that was a moment where I was like, oh, my God, people are asking me to help them with their home, and I'm sitting at home, like, not doing anything, like, helping my kids do school. And I was like, yes, I'll help you. Like, that sounds awesome. And then at the same time I was like, I think I'm going to start this shoe line or this looper line. And, you know, there was just this unfolding that happened, and as soon as I took steps towards it, it unfolded more and. And it was unfolding in two directions at one time.
But I. I was. I was so happy and excited that I just kept going.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: So you mentioned something that reminds me of how I felt when I was let go of my job before I started Idyco, like, eight years ago, that I just couldn't wrap my head around the concept of someone telling me that my life's value for an entire year was a set number. No matter how much I learned, no matter how hard I worked, my value was this salary. And sure, maybe there would be some sort of bonus or a pay bump, but that when I, like, kind of took three steps back to analyze that, I was like, wait, that's like, pretty fucked up, actually, that I can work nonstop and learn so much and contribute so much to this company. And someone's like, well, we've predetermined what your value as a human being is within our company. And I totally resonate with your feeling of not having any control over your financial situation, like your work life situation, and kind of just the trajectory of your life while working for someone else, even when they have the very best of intentions.
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I think at some point you just come to that point and there's no choice. You know, it depends on the person. But for me, there was no choice.
[00:16:12] Speaker A: I also just have to applaud you for the fact that you came up with these concepts, even though you were working on them, like you said, for. For decades at this point, but that you're like, hey, it's a pandemic and the world's falling apart. Let me go ahead and launch these two businesses at the same time.
[00:16:30] Speaker C: See, I had all this time, you know, that's the commodity, you know, time.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: So 100%, that is the one resource you cannot replenish on your own.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And the world. And. And there was opportunity. People were reaching out to me. And so that it just. It just rolled into something. I think for the first year, I didn't have any help, you know, I.
And it just grows, you know, just grew from there.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: Okay, so let's really start digging into the nitty gritty of today's show. I really want to talk about each phase of the process. And I know based on your description of what your right hand at the company is, they're probably handling a Lot of these things, but I know you have a general understanding of how that came to be and also how that functions. So before we get into each phase, can you just give us a quick rundown of your pricing structure? Is it hourly? Is it flat rate? Is a combination of the two? Is it something I. I haven't thought of?
[00:17:32] Speaker C: It's hourly, and it is pretty straightforward. Hourly. I have my assistant or right hand. She gives me her hours.
I take those into account. I record them, I mark them up, I bill them as her hours. We have two rates for her and for I. My hours are also recorded. I use Dubsado, and I bill through Dubsado for my hours, and together they get. It's one invoice for both of us. And yeah, I've. I've flirted with flat rates on occasion because, to be honest, it just kills me to do the bills, like to do the. It's. It's like three days of time sometimes, and I hate it. So I've flirted with, you know, okay, this first phase costs X amount, and it works until it doesn't usually. And then I'm just trying to wrap up the phase and so that I can bill for it. So I don't think I have the answer there yet.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: I'm curious if there's an intentional reason or it's just kind of how you started and it's working until it doesn't why you're billing your hours through Dubsado instead of tracking it. It's. It sounded like you use Studio designer. Correct. For your projects versus time tracking and billing hourly through studio.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: Absolutely no reason other than I never rolled it over and I never found enough time in the day to figure it out. And I don't like, change that much. So I just keep it going the way it's going and it's okay. It's working. Yeah.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah. There certainly isn't a reason that it would be wrong. I was just curious as to if you found a hack that made one. One better than the other. So when you're onboarding a client, and you mentioned, like, you're definitely like, the front load facetime with the clients, what does your onboarding process officially look like, especially when we're talking about renovating historic homes, what does onboarding for that type of project look like to you?
[00:19:49] Speaker C: I mean, I think there's like, the external onboarding, which is the. Like, they're reaching out, and then I'm sending them an investment guide, and then we're having a discovery call, and then we're scheduling a site visit and I'm giving them a proposal, and then we're starting. If we're starting, there's that side of it which is all pretty basic. And like, I think most people work. And I think I, in the beginning was like, reading every blog you wrote and going to design camp and being like, okay, this is how I'm going to do it, because I just didn't know. And every time I learned a better process, I was like, more professional. So that worked out very well for me. And, you know, once we start, I think if we're working on a really. It depends on the project. Every project's a little bit different. If we need an exploratory phase for the house to understand where we're going, then we take that. You know, if we need to find the right people and contractor to get a sense of the possibilities of the design, then we do that. If we need to. You know, like, I'm finishing up a project now, and they came to me first, and the feasibility of what they wanted to do was really beyond my skill set. Like, I'm not an architect, and it was, I can't tell you how to do this unless we bring an architect in. So I then gave them a few architects, and one of them, somebody else had referred them to as well. So that was great. And they went and did the feasibility study and the initial drawings first there and then circled back to me on the back end. And so then in that situation, it was purely the design layering and less discovery of the house that somebody else had done that part. It depends on the project if it's more old house restoration or cosmetic remodel of a space. I work on houses that are also not historic houses, and maybe just, you know, a 1940s house that I wouldn't call that historic, but it still has an era attached to it that we want to bring and remodel and open up and remodel for their, you know, current needs and tastes, we might start. Every project will start different. Like, if it's more of a topical remodel or like paint and wallpaper and lighting and furnishings and bathrooms and kitchens, then I'm usually diving into a story making pattern. Like, meaning, like, are we doing wallpaper and color and paint in these rooms, or if it's more structural or more like restoration based, are we stripping wood and doing functional, historic repairs to windows? I had a project recently where we had to restore all of the stained glass or leaded glass in the house. So that was somebody we worked with externally, that was a leaded glass designer that came in and oversaw and took that part of it. And then I would go to their shop, you know. So the onboarding is really different depending on the project. I would say we do do the standard. Like sometimes lately I've not done it. I don't know why I think I forget and maybe I don't always need it, but the, you know, the questionnaires, I try to be consistent, but sometimes I take shortcuts. I guess if I know where I'm going already. It just depends.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Just with that much nuance and variance from project to project, especially when we're talking about renovation or restoration projects. How do you estimate how long the onboarding phase itself is going to take when. Cause you mentioned you'll put together before project gradually starts. You put together a bid for your hours. And so I'm wondering what information or experience or not any of those, and it's just a guess are you pulling from in order to get them those broken down hours per phase?
[00:24:01] Speaker C: Mostly it's a guess based on most recent projects that were similar. I'm definitely aware of where we're headed before offering a proposal. So I know if it is, oh, we're, we're going to need a full floor plan phase or we're starting with a more decorative approach that's going to require less time than these additional phases. You know, are we redoing all of the bathrooms and the kitchen and is there an architect involved? Like, I can kind of guess based on previous projects. And it's, it's hard and I'm sometimes wrong and sometimes I eat it. I hate to go in and be like, it's going to be 300 hours and then it's 400 hours. That's a big difference in cost. I'm usually at that point eating hours on the back end because I don't feel good giving somebody an invoice that is completely upsetting to them, you know, and that's the trickiest part for me is really figuring out how to estimate in a way where I'm served.
And it's not, it doesn't always work out. In an old home, there's so much that can happen that you're not expecting. And so that's just. The client knows that upfront. Because we talk through these things.
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[00:27:05] Speaker A: So when you're giving that initial estimate, are you giving them, are you disclosing like, hey, this is my best guess, but you can expect a 10% leeway of this based off of what happens when we open walls or you know, we've talked to other clients or guests on the show who are like so much of it depends on like how decisive the client is if they're going to want eight rounds of revisions. I mean obviously this number is going to change. So I know that you said that you'll if you start going way over, you'll start to eat those hours internally, which I hope to sway your mind on. And maybe there's a better way we can achieve that. So you're not eating hours, but are you, are you disclosing that like this is an estimate and as we get close to that number, I'll keep you updated.
[00:27:52] Speaker C: I do say things like that. I to be quite frank, I am not doing my bills every 30 days, so I am not always fully aware. You know, I'm like, I probably lag more than other designers do in that part of my business. So I'm always playing catch up. I do break it out into phases and so there's the first phase and second phase and then third or fourth phase. So we're starting usually with the design exploration phase or the design development phase. And that is where we're going to do like big floor plan decisions, color and Palette decisions. And I'm usually it ends in a presentation that is, you know, theme based or first concept based. I'm sometimes showing somebody an elevation in that, you know, like, so that they can visualize what I'm seeing for them. But it might not be the same quality of elevation that then we're putting into the package for the contractor. It. It might just be literally one that I do in Illustrator that's like mostly scaled, but not then redone in cad. A lot of times I'm, I think through drawing, just also from being a fashion designer, I literally have to like sometimes do it to think my way through it. So if I'm doing a kitchen and you know, I might be creating, I don't do cad. I don't know cad, but I might be faking it in Illustrator and creating a wall elevation of a few walls and coming up with the design and then showing that to the customer or the client in that first phase as like, this is how I see it type of thing. In the second phase, we come back with full CADs. Most, I'd say 80% of the decisions laid out to be made and approved finishes, all of those like little details, full design schedules.
Those two phases, I can kind of more accurately guesstimate the hours. The phase that throws me usually is that, okay, we're starting construction phase and it's, it's like that last 20% of the job where we're there every day. And it. I do feel like I probably have the need to change how I'm billing in that last phase because the hourly adds up so fast because you're literally having to talk and drive and go places all the time on site multiple times. And it's difficult to predict that you think everything's there, all the decisions are made, you're fine. But then depending on the quality of the, of the installer, you might be there three times for one cabinet door. You know, you just. It's difficult. It depends on the contractor too.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: So you mentioned that if a project, the scope is kind of like beyond your skill set, meaning if there's additions or total wall moving, et cetera, et cetera, that you have partnered with an architect, the client has hired an architect. How are you estimating your hours or how are you handling your hours spent communicating with that architect? Do you just bill it back hourly as, as with anything else, whether it's research or sourcing, or is there kind of like a different way that you approach that communication to make sure that you're loving what the architect has put together and it aligns with what your vision of the actual final design is.
[00:31:36] Speaker C: I think also it's different in every situation. And I've had different situations occurring at the same time. Like, I have a house that we're finishing, and it was the one where they. The original thought was they wanted to add a second story and, you know, move the downstairs around to accommodate something in an attic that was in a historic neighborhood. And there was layers of approvals and the feasibility of even being able to, you know, if you're working with like a historic Mills act type situation, I don't know if they have that outside of California, but you have to before you go through all of it. There's also this phase where you have to find out if they're even going to let you add that dormer or they're going to let you change your roof line. So it really was best left to an architect because I didn't feel like I could take all of that on in a way that I felt comfortable with. And so then once they did that and said yes, they ended up changing their scope. They came back to me, they had plans in hand and I layered in and I was happy for that. And in another situation, we might have not had huge structural change. Maybe we're moving walls and slight walls or pushing out or combining rooms, these types of things. And we're bringing in an architect that's doing less conceptual work and more execution based work. You know, like they're just drawing up what we need for the permits and less of like vision partnering. And there was another job that ended up stopping, but we spent a long time, and I worked with the architects very closely, probably for like six or eight months, coming up with, you know, an addition and a full rearrangement of rooms on a second floor and all the things we wanted to do. And then we would have zooms, we would look at each other's screens, they would give me feedback on my designs, which as a designer you need to be like open to, you know, and then I would give them feedback and we'd end up at a really great place together. I think that is just dependent on the architect and the designer, you know, so all three situations are completely different. I feel like it's a feel out for me. It's like there's no way to know what you're walking into until you walk into it. And then you just have to kind of make those decisions on the spot.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: So when an architect calls or the client calls and says, hey, we finished with the architect. Can you look over this latest set that all just gets billed back hourly?
[00:34:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm usually billing hourly at that point and I'm maybe just touching base every couple weeks with somebody while we're waiting through the process. Yeah, I'm not billing separate. It just, it doesn't feel good usually for the client.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Okay, so I have some architectural questions when it comes to preservation and modernization at the same time. What are the most critical architectural details that you are campaigning to keep when working with old homes? Like, what are things that are kind of non negotiables for you that you're like, no, no, no, no.
If we can't keep that exact one, we're restoring it or replacing it.
[00:34:59] Speaker C: Yeah. To be honest, like if I walk into a project and they have vinyl windows, I won't take it, even if they don't have the budget for it. It's just in my heart, I'm never going to be excited about it, if you know what I mean. And that's a.
I have buildings, I have some like rental buildings. They have vinyl windows. It's fine. They're not 1905 Craftsmans, you know, like, I understand if you live in Chicago and it's weather and it's. I get it, but I won't like it.
So therefore, in California, I am a proponent of wood windows. Restoring your sashes, working with the right, like even replacing all the windows. I'll go, I'll definitely go down that path because I work with special window makers that can basically copy like any window and, or really good window and door people that I can get almost exact replicas in with modern pain thickness and meeting code requirements. So if somebody is not willing to, if they want all new windows and they don't want to do that, then that's kind of a non negotiable for me. If the house doesn't require wood windows. Like I did a mid century home and we put like aluminum windows in. Great. It worked out great. It, it's really dependent on like what I feel like the house really should have or needs.
And I also, like, let's see, what was the question? Like non negotiables with restoration. I just feel like if somebody is doing something in the wrong spirit of the home, it won't align with my values and I won't be happy in that project. I'm, I'm never doing it because I need the job or the money. I'm doing it mostly because I love doing it, you know, and if I'm not going to love doing it, then like, I'll be miserable and they'll stop liking me.
So I, you know, that brings me.
[00:37:17] Speaker A: To a really great segue because I'm curious how, if you had to put it on a scale of one to a hundred, like, how historically accurate do you feel that you are going to be with each project? And I know that there's details and there's elements of a home that you're like, yes, we are keeping that, we're preserving it, we're restoring it. But do you feel like your projects are like, totally historically accurate from start to finish, like top to bottom?
[00:37:44] Speaker C: Not at all. I think that the most important aspects in a very old home are like millwork and moldings and windows and doors and flooring. Like if somebody wants to put in laminate flooring, I might leave the job. But if in a old, old home. But you know, beyond that, I love mixing it up. I love mixing up furnishings, eras, inspirations, colors. I like it to be weird and funky. You know, if. If we want to paint all the wood, amazing. I'm. I can be very purist about something, but I can also be very loose about it. You know, like, if this is what makes you happy and it checks the other boxes of what makes me happy, then we're going to have a great time. But if we're not doing like the bare minimum of things that like, make me happy for this job, then that's what, you know, that's where I'll like, not take the job. But it doesn't mean you have to buy vintage furniture like that. That would actually be like, usually we're wanting to bring in more modern elements. You know, sometimes I'm a little bit purist in kitchens, you know, like, I want inset cabinetry, I want real wood cabinetry. I'm kind of a stickler for the way we paint the cabinets. I don't like lacquer. I don't like when wood cabinets end up with that, like, plasticky look to them. I want it to feel like wood under your fingertips. So I'm kind of insisting on water based paint and you know, like with it with maybe a top coat. But I don't like the lacquer finishes that painters try to push you into. I do hold my ground in those places.
I won't put quartz in a kitchen that's like a 1900s kitchen. So I do lean into certain things. But then everything around it, I want it to feel modern and fresh and light and beautiful. You know, I'll do modern Lighting, like, I like mixing it up. I think a house is better for it. I think everybody is a combination of all of their life's experience through all of time. So, like, you're never going to only have one year of furnishings or home. You know, your house is going to be filled with these things you've collected over your life. And that's a mishmash of eras and times and years. You know, you might have and vintage, if you love vintage, you might have a 1920s lamp and a 1970s couch and a futuristic light fixture and a 1960s piece of art. You know, it can all go together in a 1905 house. It's fine.
[00:40:23] Speaker A: When I look at your portfolio, I feel like the bones are always historic, but then the furnishings are never on the nose. And I think that that's what makes it so interesting and desirable. It's just like it has that same cool girl it factor. Just the way that your clothing and your shoes do. It's just never exactly what you think you're expecting. And I think that's what makes it so special. So I'd love to talk about sourcing for you. And with sourcing and doing the actual furnishing, design and ordering and everything, what percentage of your overall project would you say that this phase takes up?
[00:41:06] Speaker C: Time wise, I usually quote two different proposals. If we're doing furnishings. I don't furnish every job because not everybody has a full furnishings budget. I love it when they do, but it's not always the case, you know, and sometimes people are calling me mostly for the restoration stuff. But when we are doing furnishings, it takes up a long time. It takes a long time to furnish a home. I kind of am the designer who says, let's let this take a long time. I'd rather not prescribe everything you own in the first go, you know, like, I don't want to.
It's difficult. I feel like there's the. What you see in the world of design, like, oh, we're going to make every selection up front and then we're going to come in and give you a life or give you your living room. But for me, like, it. That would feel very unnatural to be like, here's all of your new belongings. Because you come into life with belongings and things that are meaningful to you. So I like to do a base layer and then I like to come in and do an accessories layer. And I feel like we get a better end result in like staggering it. And it does take longer, but I feel like even the Clients that I've been working with like it better. They're not always. At least the ones I've had. They're not always willing to, like, pick the pillows and the lamps at the same time, they're picking the rugs and the couches. You know, like, they need some space too. And I think later on, you can come back in and reassess and layer. Sometimes I like to do. Because clients don't always want to, like, do everything upfront. We're even placing furniture and installing these items and coming in and doing, like, omakase styling at the end. You know, like, I'm just going to memo a bunch of stuff and bring it in. And I know sometimes that works for designers and sometimes it doesn't. And we don't have any great system where it's. It's just the two of us. So we're. I'm usually just shopping, styling, bringing things in, letting us try them out, and then hopefully they're buying things at that point that work in the house. You know, we were going to cover.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: This later, but since we're on the topic of install and you are doing a much more fluid approach. You've got your base layer that gets installed, and then you come back later to add all those, like, final layers.
What? That is still just done hourly. So, like, if you guys are moving furniture in, that's just hourly. Awesome. And then when you're bringing in those final layers. Layers. Is there, like, an agreed upon total budget for those styling pieces? Accessories, pillows, et cetera. And then they'll go through and approve what's actually in front of them, or is it more? I brought my best and brightest. This is what I think works in here. And then you guys kind of figure out what they're keeping from there.
[00:44:06] Speaker C: Both. It's just. Can be both. I've had it. I've had clients where we do extensive base layers. And then we're going to shoot it. And I'm like, well, we need to add some life into here. And I'm bringing, you know, all the things you bring to a shoot. Rugs, art, bowls, lamps, textiles, pillows. All these things. And I'm like, oh, my God, it looks so amazing. It was so bare before. You should definitely keep these pillows. You should definitely. This lamp looks amazing. Literally. Maybe I've spent, like 12 hours trying to show you 60 lamps. This one looks amazing. And I'll get an ill. So I, you know, and I'm like, okay, taking it back. But I got my photos, and they looked great, and they didn't want all that stuff. Maybe they want the chance to find those things themselves, you know, And I've had it go the other way, where I. I bring in a bunch of stuff. I didn't even shoot. This other project I'm referencing. We bring in a bunch of stuff, and they took all of it. So it. It just goes both ways. And there's no way I've. When I've tried to formalize it, it hasn't worked.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Yeah, especially.
Especially when you get to that final leg of a project and the overwhelm and budget and just everything's kind of built up, and they're excited to be in their space, and then to be like, oh, here's another $30,000 worth of stuff. Do you want to keep it or not? That can definitely be hard. So I think it is really important to analyze the client, the vibe, just to make sure you're ending the project as positively as possible. And if that means that, hey, you're not getting your markup on accessories because that is too much for the client, then maybe that's the best move for that, to get that really great referral to keep them very, very happy and not feel pushed or over. Over committed to something that they weren't ready for, even though it's. It can be the biggest bummer ever because you really just want to leave that perfect layout.
[00:46:18] Speaker C: I know. Yeah. I. I really just lean into what makes the custom. The client happy, you know, and it's not always exactly what makes me happy. I hope that they listen to me because they hired me, but, you know, sometimes you're like, okay, yeah, 100%.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: And that fatigue just sets in for clients at the end. If you had to guess, Jamie, what percentage of your furnishings on a project are vintage? Custom, you know, new purchase, whether that's from a vendor or an artisan or a combination of. Because it feels like a ton of the things you're referencing are vintage. But I also know that you said you. You love putting a new sofa, for instance, into a historic space. So how much are you customizing? How much are you just sourcing? And then how much are things that you're buying from a more traditional vendor?
[00:47:09] Speaker C: I think we actually buy a lot from traditional vendors and layer in vintage pieces. I might. It depends on the client and the project. I'm never doing all vintage. You know, maybe we have a vintage coffee table or console or piece, you know, or some chairs, like side chairs. I. You know, lounge chairs. I like vintage lounge chairs quite a bit. Sometimes I'm buying vintage from a vendor. You know, I tend to work with more designer local stores that sell furnishings more than I work with like industry larger resources. You know, like, I'm not really working with places like Forehands as much as I'm working with places like Nikki Kehoe, you know, or Lawson Fenning or those types of retailers that you can buy custom. So I'm doing. It's semi custom, you know, like maybe we're picking a great sofa shape and I'm doing an upholstery presentation. I like to tell a story through all of the fabrics and colors together. I think that's what makes the rooms unique. It could end up on a vintage chair and a brand new couch and some really cool pillows thrown in. And it's all different patterns mixed together. You know, there's some really great resources here in LA that I love to buy vintage that's been redone and reupholstered and reworked and looks super cool. Like there's a store called Obsolete. Like I absolutely love it. That's it's vintage, but it's also kind of new and it's really unique and special.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Are there any categories of furnishings, lighting, et cetera that you're like, this will always be a vintage piece or this would. I would never do that vintage.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: Let's see. Like for example, in an old craftsman style home, I would remove any like recessed lighting and either do a vintage replica or something that speaks to the vintage home rather than like a new light fixture that feels too contemporary. Like for hallways and you know, like secondary lighting. I definitely use new lighting and you know, I even buy lighting from big box retailers sometimes. It's all based on the budget or the house and the mix. You know, we might spend the money on a custom couch and buy a light from amber interiors, you know, like, or whatever. Like, there's all these mixes of resources that layer in together in a really special, like, way that's meant for the space. So there's, there's never a one size fits all approach or like there's things I like and I'll lean into over and over, you know, like, that I'll use in lots of projects because they just really work for me. But I, I think it's always a mix. I'll. I definitely lean into vintage lighting. I've got my like, salvage resources, but sometimes we don't use them. You know, sometimes we go new too. It just depends. Sometimes for styling sake or for photo shoot sakes, if I'm, you know, bringing in a Different set of chairs because we didn't have the money in the budget to do a new dining room table and chairs.
I'm probably bringing in vintage chairs because it's cheaper for me as a designer to supplement that out of pocket with vintage than it is to go buy a custom set of dining room chairs for a, for a shoot or something, you know?
[00:50:59] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And before we move on to project management, execution and then the final styling, I'm just curious, for procurement, when you have your assistant handling all of your ordering that is also just tracked hourly or do you switch procurement over to a flat percentage of the total furnishings budget?
[00:51:18] Speaker C: No, we just track it hourly. We try to just keep it straight and simple. Yeah.
[00:51:24] Speaker A: So at this point in the project, when you are delivering those bills, when you get around to them, because it's not always necessarily monthly, are you breaking those, those hours down into like categories or are they just seeing like one total amount of hours for Jamie and one total amount of hours for assistant?
[00:51:43] Speaker C: It's usually broken out by face. So because I'll quote, like this phase is going to be this many hours, you know, depending on the project, roughly. And it'll be like a hundred hour swing, you know, like it's, it's not super narrow but. Or 50 hour swing, maybe in the projection and say it's design discovery or whatever. I've decided to call it that project.
Usually I'm highlighting the activity and the hours and on some projects in the project management phase, it might be a daily, it might be a hundred things on an invoice, you know, followed up with this, followed up with this, followed up with this. Not just follow up 60 hours, but like followed up on stained finish with door maker, 0.25 hours, you know. But so it does get specific and I even will go in and review the hours and I'm usually being like, it shouldn't have taken her an hour to do that. And I'll enter it at 0.25 to call the cabinet maker even. She literally might have spent an hour calling the cabinet maker. But it's not worth the disgruntled effect of, you know, like, if I feel like I've eaten it too much, I might make it up somewhere else, you know.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, totally. Somewhere that it makes more sense than a phone call. That makes total sense. So you mentioned earlier on the episode today that you don't have a dedicated project manager right now and that you're often leaning on the contractor for that phase. I think that people are very interested in this concept and would love to hear a little bit more about it because for some people it probably gets them a heart attack. And other people are like, how do I do that? So what is your communication level with the contractor? How are you keeping the contractor happy and really just trusting the contractor enough to be project managing? Because I feel like that's part of why someone would be resistant to this is that they are just wanting to be in control and that feels very much out of their control.
[00:53:53] Speaker C: I would say it's probably also all of the above. You know, I don't think we're ever stepping out and just waiting to be told that it's ready. I think that it's a give and take. And I've had my fair share of horrible experiences with terrible contractors and worked with great contractors who, you know, you're usually on the phone daily with somebody. I think that I'm usually giving the contractor space to hire their own special subs and layer mine in. And I'll be overseeing those people as needed. There's usually an understanding of where I want to come into the job and check work, you know, and do walkthroughs. I don't always do weekly walkthroughs and sometimes I'm there three times a week. You know, I'm definitely communicative with the contractor up front. Like, we want to come in when you're mid framing. We want to check progress. I'm usually very concerned about, are there people here? How many people are here? What is the size of their team? Are they showing up? Do I walk in and see six people working on footings? Or do I show up and see two people, you know, like. And it kind of. Then I'll adjust based on what I'm seeing, You know, otherwise I'm coming in like, okay, tell me when we're getting close to framing being done. And we'll come in and we'll double check measurements for elevations at that point, you know, and we'll walk through and make sure that walls are the right length so that our elevations are the correct size. We'll also request to usually meet cabinet makers on site. And so it maybe we are project managing, but a lot of good contractors have what they call a project manager. And we're letting them do their job and then connecting with them daily or multiple times per week to make sure that, you know, we're shipping things sometimes, a lot of times we're shipping to a warehouse. But if we're shipping things to site, maybe even from the warehouse, is it being Put in the shed or the whatever where it's being kept. Did they record it? Is it notated as being received? I definitely am coming in for tile to meet with a tile maker before tile gets laid. I'm usually approving a dry fit. I'm usually approving all finishes before they're executed. Doing grout tests on site. I'm. I'm walking through plumbing layouts in person to approve because it's one thing in a CAD and you get on site and if you just went off the cad, a lot of times there's going to be.
It's better to be like, see it, sign it off. It's what we said on cad. I feel really good. It means we did a good job or let's make it 2 inches higher or let's bring that shower head down. It just, it seems weird, you know, like, you make those. I'd rather be on the front side of making those changes than on the back side because then it's. It's stressful for everybody. So we are very involved in the construction process.
If we're not local, then I'm definitely leaning on somebody else's team. I'm not trying to micromanage a job build from Los Angeles and it's in Oakland, you know, it's just. It's outside of my bandwidth abilities. But, you know, if the jobs in Pasadena and I'm in Echo park, that's only 10 minutes away. I'm driving there to check things out in person and talking to the contractor all the time. So I just don't have a formal project manager. I don't have one person. That's their job. We're really making sure that everything we're doing is accurate as it goes in. And I'll tell you, like, I'm constantly amazed when I see the kitchen and I'm like, wow, it looks just like our drawings. Like, it's crazy, you know, like, that still blows me away, you know, I'm always still so impressed that we did a good job. I'm always like, wow, it really looks like, like that drawing we did. So that's fun.
[00:58:03] Speaker A: That is fun. That is exciting. And obviously a big relief probably every time.
[00:58:08] Speaker C: Oh, my God, I'm always so nervous.
[00:58:10] Speaker A: So earlier today you were super low key about it, but one of your very first projects, and I believe it was a home that you lived in after you renovated it, was your personal home you said had gotten some press. And I feel like that is a position that a lot of listeners are in, that maybe they have gotten some press for a past project, but it wasn't ARC Digest press. And so I'm wondering how that 80 project, that mid century project, how did that story get picked up? And how do you advise other designers to best position themselves for that caliber of exposure on a project?
[00:58:47] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, you can't force anything. I also have a press office. Like, I retain press, but they did not get that published. The funny thing is, is I thought it was great. Midway through and through the press office, they had reached out to Arc Digest and sent them some. And I was like, I don't think we should send in progress shots. And they're like, no, let's just like reach out and see if there's any interest. And I was like, all right. I think we should send finished shots.
And there was no interest. I was like, all right, well, whatever. I have felt very lucky that the person that I've been having take my photos shoots a ton for Arc Digest. She does a ton of their shoots. They love her and trust her. I love her and trust her. And her name's Jenna Puffley. And she.
I don't even know how I got connected with her in the very beginning, but I've been shooting with her now for like four years. And literally we were on site and she's just so supportive of what I do. And she was like texting the head people at AD from the shoot photos off her iPhone. And they were all like chatting about it while we were there. And then she told me later in the day, she's like, so I've been texting with, you know, so and so and so and so, and they want me to send them the photos. And I was like, what? Like, oh, my God, that's crazy. You know? And she's like, I can't promise anything. And I'm like, okay, fine, great. And then like a week, it all happened very fast. A week later, they wanted to run that after they got there, like within two days of receiving her photos, they were like, yes, let's do it. So, like, it was very exciting and in the moment and based on her relationships and. And lore, you know, that they liked the work.
[01:00:41] Speaker A: So certainly, I think a couple big takeaways there that are interesting is that you've been working with a publicist or a PR team, and also you've invested in a really amazing photographer who is putting work out there in the type of publications that you want to be aligned with. And I know that for a lot of designers, photography feels like an expense that they Just cannot justify into their hours based off of like, what their margins are on a project or it just feels like, okay, after I pay someone else $15,000 to shoot this or whatever number it might be that they're just like, I just don't know if that's going to have the type of return that I'm comfortable making right now. I think that that's a really great anecdote and a really great story of how working with the right photographers can open doors in ways that even a PR person or a dedicated marketing person wouldn't necessarily necessarily be able to do.
[01:01:41] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there's a different level of trust from the inside of an editorial space. With somebody like a photographer, then, you know, they're just inundated because I mostly retain the PR company for fashion sake, you know, like, they really are not focused on my interior stuff. They'll, like, occasionally, like, promote photos after they've run somewhere for like, other things. But I think that that is accurate. I think it's the best way to get in front of people is to work with a really good photographer. And. And it might. It was like our third or fourth shoot together, that mid century house. It wasn't our first shoot together, you know, and so therefore we had gotten to know each other in that process through other projects. And when she really believed in it, she stepped in, you know, she didn't do it every time I shot something.
[01:02:35] Speaker A: Right, Absolutely. So last question before I let you go, because I know you have a big photo shoot today. I'm curious as to styling. When you're on set with your photographer, are you acting as your stylist? Are you bringing one in? Does your photographer provide one? And how critical do you think that final styling is to that work? Getting picked up by a publication, that.
[01:03:00] Speaker C: Shoot where it got picked up for ab, we had a stylist. The photographer walked the house with me first and said, if you really want. This is amazing. And if you really want it to get that extra attention, you should hire a stylist. And she introduced me to some and I did. And it was an added expense. And. And in the day I was like, oh, wow, this is so helpful, hopeful. But I am still involved in the styling. It still has to be through my lens. So it was really like somebody who was like another set of eyes and ears for me, pre styling rooms ahead of me. And then I would be able to get to that space and move it around or judge it or do whatever I wanted to change what they had set up for Me based on, you know, kind of the conversations we'd had. And I've had subsequent shoots where I haven't used the stylus because it is a big budgetary commitment. And I have to kind of look at the project and be like, does this have the legs to go the extra mile to invest the extra money in? You know, sometimes if I just did like a kitchen, I've not used my photographer because maybe I don't think that just the kitchen alone is going to make it. I actually had just a kitchen and butler's pantry picked up by AD like last month and they ran it and it, it was recent. It's really beautiful. It's a really special project. Um, I think I sent you the photos for that one and I did. It's like, I knew it was really good and I invested the money, even though it was like a one room shoot, basically.
So it just depends. But I do think that relationship is the thing that has helped me the most.
[01:04:52] Speaker A: Do you feel that when you're on set, having that stylist puts you a little bit more at ease? Like you said, they can be a whole room ahead and then you're just kind of sprinkling your fairy dust on it when you guys actually get there, or does having another set of hands actually add a little bit more of a mental workload for you during a shoot day?
[01:05:13] Speaker C: No, it's super helpful. Sometimes in life, more people is more stress for me because I have to talk to more people and manage more people. But yeah, in the shoot, it can be so overwhelming to do a shoot that it was so helpful and she was so wonderful.
[01:05:32] Speaker A: One last question about stylists, and I promise you can hang up on me. When you personally, Jamie, have such an amazing collection of objects and styling pieces, is it your stylist that's bringing stuff? Are you bringing stuff to style with or is it a combination of both?
[01:05:50] Speaker C: Both. In that situation specifically, I'm bringing things, I'm memoing things, I'm purchasing things, I'm talking with her ahead of time. We've walked through it, we've talked about things she might have.
They're always like little things, you know, like a little bowl she brought in to put on the table or, you know, like barware. Maybe we're leaning into the barware, but we're bringing in a few extra pieces that offer more height or, you know, she brought in some trees and plants for the shoot. It's. It's just, it's always different. But I do lean on my own reservoir and I do lean on people who loaned stuff to me.
[01:06:34] Speaker A: Perfect. Well, Jamie, this was so fantastic, so fabulous. You're just an absolute creative muse, but also an executioner and I think that that combination is so special and unique. Thank you for giving us so much of your time today. Thank you for coming full circle with me after having been at Design Camp a few years ago to now. Just watching you explode around the world is amazing.
[01:06:58] Speaker C: Oh my God. Thank you so much. This has been so fun. I really, really enjoyed it.
[01:07:03] Speaker A: Have a great shoot and we'll talk soon.
[01:07:12] Speaker B: For more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective thank you so so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. The biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMS and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible. Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
