[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome back to the Interior Collective.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: I'm your host Anastasia Casey and today's guest needs absolutely no introduction. Shay McGee is back. For those of you who were here with us back in season one, you know we had Shea on in 2022 and that episode remains the most listened to conversations in the show's history. A lot has happened since then. McGee Co. Has grown into one of the most recognizable home furnishing brands in the country.
There have been books, major brand collaborations with Kohler and Sachs, Target, the Shade Store and more, and her debut cookbook around the Table, just released this spring. But what I found most fascinating about Shea Story is not the scale of what she has built, it is how she has built it. Before there was a team, a Netflix show, or a product line, there was a blog with a consistent and deliberate way of showing up that made people feel like they knew her before they ever reached out. That instinct didn't just build an audience, it built a brand where the right clients arrive already sold. That is exactly what we are unpacking today, what it means to build a brand led studio, the editorial decisions that create authority before anyone picks up the phone, how the client conversation changes as the brand grows, and what Shay's returning to writing on Substack says about the staying power of long form content. There are lessons in Shay's evolution that apply to designers at every stage.
If you are still the one holding your projects together, there is a better way. Materio is the project delivery system built specifically for interior designers. One connected workflow from concept to handoff to billing, Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their free
[email protected] this episode is brought to you by Laloy. A new season means new rugs, pillows and designs to discover. And if you're headed to High Point Market, there's even more to see in person. Explore what's new and plan your market.
[email protected] hi Shay, welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to have you here and catch up because we were just mentioning it's been a few years since you've been on the show.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: It has been a while. I'm excited to be back.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: I feel like we kind of need to catch everybody up because it has been a while and I feel like a lot of stuff has shifted on your end and grown and scaled in different ways. So give us the snapshot of Studio McGee today. What does the firm look like from an interior design firm standpoint? And what is your role as Chief Creative Officer in that arm of the business.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So our team is comprised of 18 team members and that's split across our designers, which are at different levels, ranging from senior on down to junior designers. And then we have about five operational team members. So you have 18 team members as a whole, and five of them are across operations.
And some of those specifically one, our head of people actually for Studio McGee Inc. Is the head operations leader for that team because it is so people heavy. And then we have design, operations manager, procurement specialists, and that's what comprises that five. And then the rest of the team is split across design true designers. That doesn't include our stylists.
So we share our styling team between McGee and company and Studio Mickey. That is a shared resource and that is for team members and they go back and forth. So really if you're like, oh, anyone who touches a studio McGee project, we're probably in the low 20s as far as team members go. Just to understand the scale of our business. But because of the type of business that we run, we're.
It's not clean cut.
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Yes. It never is clean cut when there's so many different things you're doing. Okay.
Unsurprisingly, I have so many follow up questions. Okay. Head of people in my brain. That sounds like hr, Is that correct? Okay, okay.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: But very elevated. H. So her, she joined us after a long career, a 17 year career at Goldman Sachs. And she joined us and is head of people and culture at Studio McGee Inc.
But she also has team members under her that are recruiting specialists and the true HR side of things. But yes, you are correct. She is human resources and so good with clients and so good with being a coach for our team members. And so that is her role.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Okay, you just said so good with clients. In my brain, I'm thinking HR is like very internal. What?
[00:05:06] Speaker A: It is very internal. But she understands how to manage people issues and so she's a really great coach behind the scenes for our team to handle delicate client situations, which doesn't happen all the time, but I think that that skill set is really valuable.
[00:05:26] Speaker B: Okay. And so 18, we said about five of those are, you know, on the more of the logistics operation side, I feel like people listening because I'm surprised. That feel feels like a more streamlined team than like what I've built up in my head for Studio McGee. I think that there's like 10,000 designers over there of. Of that 18 people. Do you guys break things down per project? As in there's like a design team assigned to certain projects or Is everybody working on things across the board?
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So we operate in like a senior and junior designer team capacity on every single project.
And I'll back up and say that our projects themselves are tiered. So we have like Premiere, Signature, select, and then virtual. So those top two tiers that I mentioned are the ones that I'm involved in. So Premiere would be like our Oxford Road project that we just revealed this huge project with a couple of other projects that are in that vein. And I'm involved in every single decision and lead that vision. Like I'm kicking off those original images, I am setting the vision for the project and then we have the next tier down, which is me involved in high level vision and main spaces, but like a basement, I'm not involved in every single approval and answer.
So that's how my role with the creative director role comes into play with our projects. And then beyond that, every team has a lead designer and a junior designer assigned to it. And then our operations like procurement, that is shared between all teams.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Okay. Amazing. Crystal clear.
Okay. And I have to ask, because we ask everybody, how are you guys handling billing these days? Is it flat rate, hourly? Is it a combination? How are those, you know, elite premier projects getting billed?
[00:07:36] Speaker A: Everybody? We've always been an hourly business and we will always be an hourly business.
We have not found flat rate to be beneficial for anyone and mostly ourselves, because we end up always having to do more revisions than anyone anticipates. It's just part of the process. I will say, however, we've gotten very good at anticipating the amount of hours a project will take. And that is really key to having that communication from the beginning. We do not underestimate hours, because no one is happy when we underestimate hours. People just want to know what they're getting into.
So we are very thorough in our bids and giving that estimation of hours and our rate is spread across the different offerings that we're providing. So my rate, the lead designer, junior, all of those rates are slightly different as well as even the procurement side and the manage like project management side of the the business, though everyone is billing their. Everyone is billing their hours. They're just at different rates.
And that is how we arrive at these numbers. And I will say that running a design services business is.
Can be complicated. But if you start tracking every single hour very, very thoroughly and then going back to review any sort of case that you have previously, any project, go back and see how much everything took you for real, and then you will get better and better and better and more accurate in anticipating. And so that's how we are at a place where we feel confident in those numbers. We do virtual design services and those are Flat Rate. But that's.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Oh, okay, great. Okay. So I'm hearing a lot just from like in the podcast and from our clients in general that like right now with like the market, what it is today that Flat Rate has been offering, Flat Rate has been getting people quicker yeses in the onboarding process. Do you feel like there's like a certain caliber of project that you get to. When their total budget spends are, you know, tens of millions of dollars, that that is kind of the trigger point that's allowed you to just keep saying that hourly works or have you seen any pushback in the case?
What is like my actual final cost going to be? Exactly.
[00:10:14] Speaker A: They want to know what their final cost is going to be and along the way we give them those updates like, this is how you're tracking. And I think that that allows people, even if they're in the tens of millions to say, you know what, I got to pull back. I am I. Or they're more cognizant of how long things are taking.
Yeah. I will say that there's a certain tier of client that is not necessarily feeling that pinch, but they're still very mindful of how their money is being spent. And it's usually about managing those expectations. They just don't want. They just, if they're going to spend that much money, they kind of just want to know from the beginning, this is how much money I'm spending. They don't want that surprise.
And that's. It's like the surprises that cause problems. And so we're very upfront through the process of like, this is how you're tracking six months in. This is how you're tracking. And if you've spent 75%, I will say that at the beginning of a project, managing expectations is like the biggest thing that you can possibly do to establish a good relationship. And the beginning part of a project is one of the most disappointing things for a client. And I'll tell you why. It's because you start to spend so many hours and they're getting billed and they see nothing yet. And that is something that we've found is like you have to kind of let them know, like, we're going to be, we're going to be shopping, we're going to be designing and you're going to be getting build. And you haven't seen a design board yet. And that might feel like a real squeeze at the beginning. And then you're going to see those design boards and you're going to feel good, but it's going to take a couple months to get us there. And so again, just being really upfront and then like you said, we get virtual design is a really strong money maker because we have a flat rate. And like you said, you get quicker yeses, you deliver a design, they are very clear on the number of revisions, one round of revisions, you get the design and then they're implementing it. And so you get quicker yeses, you get quicker turnaround with the clients and then more clear cash flow as far as like your regular billing goes.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: That's so interesting about the virtual design. I feel like a lot of designers, you know, we're picking up virtual design during COVID because it was like an easy thing to, to meet demand. But then I feel like a lot of designers have kind of scaled back on it and you know, that could be just due to capacity. It's so interesting to say that it's still revenue stream for you guys.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: It's not the sexy revenue stream, but it is a great revenue stream.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Okay, so at Studio McGee and McGee Company, which is under Studio McGee, Inc. Studio McGee Inc. Okay, design work really means different things with different goals. And so how involved are you in the day to day design work when we're talking about the company as a whole?
[00:13:19] Speaker A: So that is really my role. So my day looks like a rotation of designing, concepting and reviewing product because we produce hundreds of products every single season and we design, I design product with our partners like Kohler and Target. And so then I'm designing, concepting and reviewing that product. And then I'm reviewing the design of, let's say graphics and marketing. So I'm reviewing the catalog. I'm not doing the graphic design, but I am very involved in the direction of how it goes and the direction of that visual look for the season. And then I rotate into design services mode and I'm doing that. Then that last portion is spokesperson mode where I'm on camera and doing that. But that is, that is what my rotation of a week looks like.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: When you're working on product design, do you guys have like product designers specifically on the team as well or do your partners handle the like actual technical execution of the product design?
[00:14:32] Speaker A: So I think we should divide that conversation into two buckets. So there's partners like Kohler, Target, Pura, like our licensing partners, those come with their own designers and Kohler's a good example.
That is so technical, I cannot bring.
I do not have that industrial design experience. They have engineers that are working for them to bring faucets, toilets, all of those things to life. So I'm working closely with their design team, and then they are working to really get the technical specifications and needs there correct. Then on the McGee Co. Side, we're furniture, decor, lighting, accessories. I am very involved in the esthetics, but I have a team of product designers, furniture designers with expertise that work for me, and we work together to bring that to life. But again, my job as creative director is to set the vision, set the look, edit, get it just right. But then on that day to day, like, they're working with our manufacturers in, you know, whether it's Portugal or India or wherever that may be, to get that product into the world.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Okay, so since the last time we had you on the podcast, which I'm just now reading in my notes, was in 2022, which is crazy. Okay, what has changed? What do you feel like has changed most significantly about how you're running the business?
[00:16:04] Speaker A: We are very strategic about growing, Miguel, and we have always had that focus of building this home furnishings brand, but it has grown quite significantly, and so that means that needs changes. The business has grown, and we've gone into new categories of development. When I. When I talked to you in 2022, that probably meant that we were developing our own product, but it was maybe like 35% of our total sales at McGee and Company and now our exclusives are 75%. So I'm so involved in product design and that side of our business. Like, the amount of designers that we're employing, and we have sourcing specialists, and we have really built out a home furnishings brand with, at. At, like, at all these levels.
We brought on a chief revenue officer. I mean, like, our C suite is growing. Like, those are things. I would say the business side behind the scenes is what's growing. But what you guys see on that other end, like, or the shape of our business is generally the same as far as how we, you know, are presented to the world.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Shay, honestly, I have to say I'm a little embarrassed. I had no idea that you guys were up to about seven. Approximately 70% of, like, all original, unique McGee and Go product on the shop. I'm like, I have to go shopping today after.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: We have to go and see everything there is. We. We can carry.
We definitely carry trade sources. But if you look at our sales breakdown, it is very, very heavily Weighted on the things that we design exclusively. And so that's where my focus is and I love it so much.
I want to be the next great home furnishings brand.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: When you look at the full Studio McGee ecosystem, Seinfirm McGee and Co. YouTube brand collaborations, how do you think the relationship, how do you think about the relationship between all of those things? Because you're just such an expert masterclass in carrying your brand across each and every one of those things which for other people can really struggle. The way people treat YouTube versus how they treat like their high end design clients are often very different. And to me it feels really consistent. As a viewer, how have you shaped that?
[00:18:48] Speaker A: I think that having a centralized design team so our, our creatives are like a service within the business. And so those graphic designers are the same people developing the catalog. They're the same people putting the graphics on and, and heading up the video editing on YouTube. And so you have like a centralized focus there. But, but also if you look, we do treat them differently, but it's like very nuanced. And I think that that's the key is that we are very true to knowing who we are as we know who we are, we know who we are, we know who our customer is.
And then you have to play within all of Those outlets like YouTube, like the COVID images that we've started to use on YouTube. I are something I would never put on Instagram as like a post, but that's what speaks to the YouTube audience. And so we have to kind of know our edge. It's like YouTube, man. It's a different beast. And I, I'm kind of sid and I have become a bit obsessed with it because I see a lot of potential for growth there.
But again like we started working with a consultant and she was like, you gotta do cutouts of your face, you know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I gotta do cutouts of my face on the COVID images. And so it, we tasked our team with the like, what's our edge? Like how far can we take what works on that platform and still make it feel like us? And that's how I approach kind of all of the outlets like TikTok. I'm not doing dances. I will never do dances. However, what can we do that feels as playful as the TikTok algorithm promotes and also still BS and I think that that, and if you dance that's fine, but that means that that's your brand and you're the person that dances on TikTok and you're also having to meet your clients where they are. And so I think that you just have to kind of know your edge of like, who you are and what kind of client you want to attract.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Is there anything like platform wise that you've told your team? Like, no, we're just, we're not going to invest in that because it feels like you guys are everywhere. And is there ever a case where Shay's like, I don't want, I, I don't want to do that. Like, we don't need to get into that and that's okay.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: I mean, we're as many places as I feel comfortable with right now. I mean, we're, you know, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, and now I'm personally doing substack. So I guess I haven't really said no because I've said yes to everything. I mean, there are still. We're not doing Snapchat and that is actually a really big business for some people. It's just not us. I will say that at different points in the business, as people get stretched and things get busy, what you have to say is, okay, where are we focusing right now? And there was a time when last year where we were very, very stretched. And so we had to say, you know what, we're going to pause on blog posting right now because our copywriters are just really maxed out. And so we're back now to doing that, but we had to take a pause and you just kind of have to make those choices sometimes.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Okay, let's talk about. I want to get into photography because I feel like from an exterior point of view, looking in like that is something that has been so consistent and it helps the consistency across the different platforms.
Much of your brand's authority do you think lives in photography and how do you think that invest. How do you think about that investment as a client conversion tool? I'm hearing so many people a have big issues with their, their photography licensing rights and like what they're negotiating with their photographers, what they're allowed to use, what brands they can share it with, et cetera. And I'm also hearing just, you know, photographers are so expensive. At what point did you guys, and I'm assuming you guys have in house
[00:22:55] Speaker A: photographers a lot to say about this and it's not all good.
I.
So we, okay, so keep in mind we shoot product. So I have in house photographers that work for me and so we have to tear out kind of how we approach photography. I have a very consistent, like naturally lit we're never going to go like filtered. That's just our, our brand.
Even though it became very trendy to kind of do this like, brown moody look for a while, but our, that is not our Sonata look. So we have to, again, it's like knowing yourself, knowing your brand and kind of just sticking to it and just having a window of tolerance of like, okay, the trend is to go moody. Well, we're going to go moody, but like only a little bit. We're not going to go to the extreme. And same thing when it was bright. I probably pushed into the bright for many years early in my career. And I know now, like, well, we have an edge to where we would play.
So I have in house photographers that work for me and when we have smaller shoots, we like smaller interior shoots. They will. Will shoot those for us.
However, we worked with a PR firm that we're not working with anymore. However, they're. They were completely set on the fact that the only way that you were going to get any sort of publication to work with you is if you worked with their favorite photographers.
So I've got a lot to say about that. I've got a lot to say about how that industry works and if it's worth it for interior designers. And I, to be honest, I don't know. I don't know if it's totally worth it to spend every penny that you just made from a project on a photographer to wait six months to then get the hope of a couple of pages in a print publication.
I come from more of a marketing background and so I have a lot of questions about the value of that. My experience has been actually the opposite, was that going directly to the consumer, presenting it myself and sharing right away and sharing in real time has gotten me more clients.
I have never gotten a client that said, I saw you in X, Y, Z. It's. I saw you on Pinterest, I saw you on your website, I found you on Instagram. And so while that's all just anecdotal evidence, I do have a lot of questions. However, as an interior designer, it's really nice to have a few of those placements that then you can associate with your name, like as seen in, you know. And so what we've decided is just that, like, you hear me say the word tier a lot, and I think that that's a big thing that's changed in our perspective over since I last met with you is just like tearing out the priorities of the projects. So Oxford Road, we invested in a fantastic Photographer. I loved working with her. We hired a prop stylist. I mean, I have stylists that work for me. But the advice we were given was work with, you know, a specific photo style, a whole team, and then present the project.
And we, we, our PR team had kind of this deal where the first images would be shared online immediately and then it would come in print later in the fall. So we didn't. So we kind of had an agreement where we could share some photos, but we wouldn't share all of them.
But I will, I will just say that as a. Even as our firm has the name it does, I don't always know that it's worth it to wait. So we choose, we say, sometimes it's not worth it to wait. We're going to go straight to our.
Straight to the public with us.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Shay, that is so helpful to hear coming from you. Specifically, because designers put so much weight on to getting something published, particularly in print. I have like a. I will always pick digital publication over print publication because, I mean, there's an immediate click through. There's like so much more that you can track. But there, like you said, there is that feather in the cap concept of as seen in Arc Digest, I seen and whatever those are. And so you heard it here directly from Shay's mouth. That you have to really consider is what is my goal with this is my goal because I want to be 8100, but I am completely booked for the next six years. So I don't care about getting a client or am I trying to keep my studio running and I need to book someone. Because when you wait six months before you're even allowed to lift that press embargo and show that project that's it's been four years since you designed that project. Like, at that point, every moment matters that you're sitting on a design when
[00:27:54] Speaker A: I think you have to really know what your priority is as a business and as a designer. Because achieving certain goals means you're playing a game. And it means that you're probably letting other things be less important and you have to just choose the priority. And what you see from certain people aren't always the right fit for you. And I think that, that, I mean, I have to tell myself that, like, I have certain goals and they're my number one goals, and that means that I'm not playing certain games.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: If you've been running your firm for a few years now, you've probably got a system in place. And I do use that term loosely. It's going to be a mix of apps, some spreadsheets, maybe a project management tool that was close but never quite right.
And you are still the one holding it all together. But here's the thing. Most tools were not built for the way interior designers actually deliver projects. Materio was concept to handoff approvals to procurement to billing with QuickBooks sync built right in one connected workflow Interior Collective listeners get 50% off their first month at getmaterio.com, free for 14 days. No credit card required. That's M A T E r I o getmaterio.com Today's episode is brought to you by Laloy. If you're headed to High Point Market, join Laloy on October 18th at the High Point Market Theater for Best in Design featuring Amber Lewis, Jeremiah Brent and Jean Stouffer in a conversation celebrating standout design and the people shaping the industry. While you're at Market, stop by Laloy to see the latest rugs, pillows and new introductions for the season.
Learn more and plan your
[email protected] okay, so let's talk about a project that you know you didn't bring in a separate team for. It's not like who your publicist recommended. Do you guys have an an on staff photographer or go to photographer for those big projects but you're not pushing to press?
[00:29:53] Speaker A: Yes, I have an on staff photographer and then I have a go to local photographer because the top tier usually requires I mean I'm based in Salt Lake and so it usually requires travel fees and higher photography rates. Because they're flying from out of state.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I've heard, I've started to hear this conversation when it comes to photography to start thinking about photo as a salary on your team, even if someone is not. Because it's like by the time let's say you're doing three shoots a year, four shoots a year, you're like, wow, that is a salary for someone.
Do you have any thoughts on, like when it made sense, like in hindsight when it made sense to bring someone in house who maybe could do other things as well. But like, was there a point where it was like, yeah, we can handle shooting our own projects and it makes the most sense for us.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: We did that years ago and it worked. And to be quite transparent, that team member decided to go back. We like she worked freelance and then she came in house and then she decided to go back to freelance. And so we still have a good relationship with her.
I think it just depends what it opened up Was like each project maybe requires like a different style slightly. And so with McGee and company, we will work with a photographer that, you know, matches the style that we're trying to go for. And it allows us to say, you know what, this person's style is a really good fit for how we want this project to be presented. So in some ways the in house photographer route, it works for our type of brand because we have so much consistency of work in studio.
But I don't think it makes. If it was just my design team, it does not make sense. It makes sense, like you were saying, to like carve out that cost on as a light item, like a budget, like, like a salary. But I don't think it makes sense to bring someone fully in house, even at our scale of design firm.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: What, what about video? Are you guys handling video all in house?
[00:32:05] Speaker A: Does that run kind of the opposite? Yes. I think it's so valuable for us to have an in house videographer. So we have an in house videographer, we have two editors and yeah, and we could probably use a third because all the cut downs, it's like you make the big video and then you got to cut it down differently for tick tock, Instagram, YouTube shorts, all that.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: And then is your videographer like when we see you chatting, you know, showing your outfit of the day, that sort of thing. What is like, how do you decide? Okay, we're gonna have, you know, the team come in to film this. And this is how something I'm just doing on my phone. And do you have, when it is just you on your phone, do you have someone in the corner kind of like directing you or you just like, here's the video, guys. I filmed it this morning.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: It's me. So I think that it's a combination of all of those that you talked about. So probably one of the biggest changes in our business since I saw you last was that I just, I run my own. There's like a Shay Mage component that's separate from the Studio McGee brand. So I have my Shane McGee Instagram and I have my Shay McGee substack.
And the reason is because people were like, so, so many people wanted like the clothing, the behind the scenes, the whatever. And I would be like obligated to be like this shiny campaign for a partner. And then I'd be like popping in and doing like a workout video. And it started, and then I have millions of followers. And that worked for a long time until it just didn't. It kind of just felt like not as Brand forward as I really wanted us to be. It was like we had to professionalize a bit, but I didn't want to lose that connection. And so we have to kind of divide things. Like, my personal Instagram gets like, all the, like, messy stuff, and it's like outfits, and it's like behind the scenes, and. And then Studio McGee will get behind the scenes, but it's usually because I have a team member that's filming the behind the scenes, whereas the stuff on my personal is like, it's just truly just me.
So when you see, like, me talking to the camera on studio McGee, it's because I have, like, one social. I have, like, a social team member that's following me around.
[00:34:36] Speaker B: Have you been surprised, impressed, underwhelmed with the response and growth on your founders account? On the Shane McGee account?
[00:34:45] Speaker A: People love it.
It's. And I love it. It is like a creative outlet for me because there's no content calendar. It's just whatever I'm doing, when I'm doing it and how I feel. Makeup. No makeup. Polished. Not polished. Fuzzy camera. Like, whatever it is, it's just like, it's me and people really like that, but there's a place for it. And that's kind of just like how we divide it. It's like brand forward, content, and then we have the me. And people, like, love that.
[00:35:16] Speaker B: I love it. I love following your personal account. It's definitely. I think that's, like, why I feel like it couldn't possibly have been four years since, like, I had this interview with you, because I'm like, I feel like I talk to you all the time, even though it's not me talking.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Just watching you.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: And I love that.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: And it's been so fun. And I think I. I pushed it as long as I could, but then there came a point where it was like, I'm trying to talk to the. Trying to talk to my partners and business partners and come up. We are. Have these beautiful campaigns, and it's just like.
Just wasn't really working for us to have that. And so it was. It did felt like a big jump for me to, like, have a separate kind of like, Shay Miggy brand.
But it's worked really well for us. It's. It's been great.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: That's fantastic. Um, okay, so I want to talk about your aesthetic and what you have kind of labeled new heritage. It's specific, it's consistent. Um, but I also see when I follow your, you know, your personal Shay McGee account, I see that the Things that you share that inspire you, like, the things that you're drawn to. I see that there's, like, sparks of things that feel outside of that new heritage and outside of what the signature Studio McGee look is. How. How intentional are you about consistency with the brand versus as a designer and like a brilliant creative wanting to push beyond that.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Oh, that's so interesting. I actually think that when I. When I see us use new heritage as a style, I actually think that what it means to me is that there's a pretty wide breadth of what that can be.
I think that heritage means it can be passed down. And I have contemporary homes that I design for clients that still could be passed down. Like, modern has been around.
Like, modernism has been around for many years, but, like, what makes it feel timeless and classic. And so there's a pretty wide breadth in how we can approach that, because I still take on. I mean, we do that clean traditional that we are known for, but, I mean, I take on huge contemporary homes, but we make them Studio McGee with warmth. And so to me, it's a pretty wide breadth. But you're right, like, with McGee and co specifically, I think that new heritage style is, like, what we have anchored our look as as a product brand, but there's still some room to play. And I think that that's what I love about design anyways. It's like, I can build a really traditional home for someone and then still put, like, a little surprise contemporary side table or lamp in there, and it just works. And that's what works about our style, is that we are always kind of mixing.
So. So, yeah, I have a wandering eye where I'm always kind of, like, looking for inspiration when I'm traveling and finding other things. And I usually always try to find a way to incorporate that and make it work within our look.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Well, I think that's what's added to your brand's longevity, is it's felt really consistent. But when you start to break down what, you know, the latest projects you've put out, or, like, the latest catalog versus six, seven years ago, like, you do see an evolution, but it's been more subtle than someone just, like, jumping between trends.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: Totally. And I think that there are certain brands that their strength is actually just, like, we're a trend brand. Like, so their. Their strength is, like, to do all the trends, and that's not us.
My strength is actually to stay rooted and then to dabble.
Like, if you're going to dabble in the trend, we're going to do it in a really subtle way that feels like, easy to incorporate with longevity. And that's what I've found to be where our strength is as a brand. But it's like everyone's always comparing everybody and it's like, really, at the end of the day, you just have to. Your strength is you, and that's what will set you apart.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Okay, so what I actually want to talk to you about today, now that I've chat you on for so long, is converting clients. And I feel, it feels as a consumer that when you get to the level that Studio McGee is, there's not a lot of conversion needing to happen. Like, there's always a line out the door. You've always got people ready to work with you.
When I look back, I look at the blog area of Studio McGee having, like, a very specific, like, intimacy to it.
How intentional have you been about preserving that feeling as the brand scales so that when someone is knocking on your door, you're delivering what someone has experienced from, like, the public eye?
[00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think we are fortunate enough that we have.
We don't have a lack of inquiries, but we do have to be really selective about the types of projects that we take on. One, because regardless of how big your business is, you're going to be working with those clients for years.
Homes just take a long time to build. But also because we want to work with clients that represent, like, there's always a new wave. Always. Every few years, you kind of have this new wave of the look of the brand, even if it has some core Studio Mickey principles and part of that aesthetic. Like, you see, there's always an evolution. And so is that client part of that new evolution of, like, where we're going instead of just asking for what we've done?
And sometimes people trick you and they're like, oh, yeah, we're so open. And then they're like, actually, we just want you to do the house that you did seven years ago. You know, it happens. But I think part of that expectation has actually been professionalizing how we present ourselves. Because as our brand has grown, you are not going to get just me emailing you every single day. You're just not going. It's not feasible with how our brand has scaled. So to manage that expectation, we've had to professionalize. So there's like, the blog is often we.
Right. It's coming from us as a design firm, Studio McGee as a collective, rather than Studio McGee as Shea. And that's also partly why we separated Shea McGee. So that Studio McGee is a we. It really is. I mean, you hear I'm. I'm stylists, I'm photographers, I'm operations. I'm multiple levels of designers, and I am the visionary. I am very involved in that vision. And. But we are still a we. And I think that when we got to that point and we wanted to manage that expectation with clients, we had to put out there what we wanted people to expect when they came to us. And that's when we started to kind of shift more to a.
A brand that still has a personality. And I don't. It must work, because our clients are not giving us the feedback that they're disappointed that they're working with a team. They come in and they say, yeah, we knew she had a great team behind her. There's no way she could have done this all by herself. And we see that team online.
And so I think, again, I know I've used this phrase so many times, but, like, the management of expectations is really important. And. And showing that if you present yourself as a standalone designer, then people are going to think, I'm hiring a standalone designer. And. And I think that there are clients that actually actively seek that out. They're like, I need someone to be my friends and hold my hand. And I am looking for a designer that operates independently.
And then there are people who are like, no, I want everything to go, like, be very seamless. And that. And operations are very important to me. And having a full team so that backup is available.
That's what they're like. They're shopping for the type of fit
[00:43:40] Speaker B: that's interesting for someone to really talk about that. There are designers who love to have that super personal, close connection, and they're taking their clients shopping, and maybe, maybe people could consider talking about that more online, if that is where they really find that.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: And, like, I shop with my clients, but it's like, we're going shopping, like, once or twice, and it's like a planned trip. And then my team is taking them to Round Top because I don't have the capacity to also take them to Round Top and to maybe other additional places. And so you just got to put out there what you want your future clients to, like, have as an experience.
[00:44:23] Speaker B: Shea, when you look over the past, you know, 15 years, you guys are coming up on 15 years, right?
[00:44:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think something like that. Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: Somewhere.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: You're coming up on it.
Is there a point where you feel like that was the moment that we had, that we got to Stop having to like sell ourselves to every inquiry.
And if there was, do you have any correlation as to, you know, was it Netflix? Was it, you know, the first Target collection? What do you have any thoughts as to when that happened? When you felt like you got to sort of shop your clients more than clients were shopping you from like a collaboration standpoint?
[00:45:14] Speaker A: No, I think that it has evolved over time. And actually I think that because I got my start because I had a following. And so people have always been coming to me because they find me. And it could have been they were smaller projects, but I still had, I haven't had.
And I, I say this acknowledging, like how grateful I am that I haven't had the lack of work opportunity.
That hasn't been the struggle. The struggle is because I have a name for myself. People want exactly what I've done before.
And also I have aspirations to like level up the projects. And so instead of just, it's being really mindful about the types of projects we take on to continue to evolve that style. And Netflix actually, Netflix and Target actually created new problems. And I can get into that a little bit.
We design high end custom homes and Netflix was intentionally casting clients that were smaller.
And that meant that what we were putting out there was smaller one room projects. Well, that's not what we were taking on as a design firm.
And so I had to actually actively work to reframe how we were presenting ourselves. And it took, it's been taking years since Netflix we filmed from 2018 to 2022, 2023. And so then it's taken me years to kind of dig ourselves out of the like single one room renovations that were presented on the show to showcase actually what we were doing and level up our projects again. And you'll see, you see like in the last, you know, maybe starting with like our project in Cabo that we presented a couple of years ago and then this Oxford Road project, like those are the fruits of that labor that happened like right after the show. But it took a lot of work to get to like evolve that. And so I think that the blessing of a big following is like, people are always like, interested, but then it's also like then work on behind the scene to be really good about deciding what, how you want your brand to evolve.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: When you think about the visibility that those, you know, Target and Netflix brought do, I feel like there are so many designers who are like, that's like, that's when I've made it, like when I have opportunities like that.
[00:48:04] Speaker A: Well, and I Thought. I mean, I made a bucket. Bucket. I said. I called it my designer bucket list.
It was like, write a design book, have a design show, have a collection, like a licensed collection. And that was like, those were the. And probably, like, being a magazine, you know, it's like those were the. Those were the things that were like my design bucket list. And I will say that Netflix put us on the map.
It put us on the map. And things that were in the works. Because I had Netflix associated with my name. They still. It's so funny. Like, it's been six years and they're still showing clips and saying, Shay McGee from Netflix. It's just like, it will always be associated with my name. And that's wonderful.
It's. It's great. It's just kind of boosted our awareness. I can't go anywhere internationally without being stopped.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: Like, does that get lonely?
[00:49:04] Speaker A: Does that, like, it is a bit lonely.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like you've gotten to a caliber where, you know, like, I'm going on trips with my designer girlfriends and, like, doing all of these things, and it feels like I can't do that.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: Like, I couldn't sign up for the trip.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Because I'm being watched and information is currency. And so if I have a misstep or if I act a certain way that, I mean, I don't know, it's. It's. It's. It's information about me. And for better or worse. Yeah. And so we just kind of say, like, well, I mean, Sid and I are always very family focused and I have him as my partner and. But I do have to be very mindful about myself publicly.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah. You have to be on all the time. All the time.
When we do think about Netflix and Target do well, Target's an interesting one.
Do you feel like. I can see how Netflix raised a big challenge to the design firm side of things. Do you feel like Netflix helped McGee and company a lot, though? Did it make it more shoppable or do you feel like there was still a disconnect from what you guys are actually producing and selling at McGee and Company to the. To the people who fell in love with what you were doing on the show?
[00:50:30] Speaker A: Both we saw. We saw numbers increase in those first two seasons, like, a lot, and then it leveled out, and that's when we knew it's time. Because it's taking so much time from us, it's kind of confusing the public as to, like, what our business is about, like, size, like, we talked about. And our numbers from Netflix were Like, starting to just kind of be like, more progressive in, like, this is how our traditional business would run instead of like, you know, up into the right in a crazy way. And so that was when we knew, like, okay, it's done. Like, we've done it. We did it. It was great and it was so great for us. But now it's time to work on a different project. Target is interesting because as you mentioned, it also presents its own challenges because people think that that is the product that I'm manufacturing and they think that that's our product.
And so there's kind of always this like, information campaign of like, Migi and co is our brand. And I do a partnership with Target. But I mean, how cool is it that I have people come up to me every single day. I cannot go to the grocery store without someone saying, your collection with Target allowed me to be able to decorate my home and make it feel good. And I wouldn't have been able to do it any other way. And that collection won't last forever. It just, it's, you know, it's a. We signed on for a certain amount of time, but like, I'm so grateful for the time that I had to be able to like, have that experience of delivering our aesthetic. A value driven price point.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: Well, Shay, I have to say I can count on two hands how many times I've been on set when we were filming for a client and they were like, hey, we need X, Y and Z accessories. Still, like, we have a gap. And it's like, well, we know we can go to Target and get Shay stuff. So I hope that that feels really good that even.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: No, I've loved it. So great. But it does cause confusion, like you said. And it comes with its own set of challenges. But like, I, I would not trade those experiences for anything.
[00:52:33] Speaker B: So. Okay, let's talk about the design firms ideal perfect client, perfect project coming in the door today. Where do you think that those people are finding you if it's not Netflix, probably.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: And it wasn't finding us on Instagram and Pinterest.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: So they are still coming to you from Instagram. Even people with ten million dollars, a hundred billion dollars, they're still finding you on Instagram.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think that people use Instagram as like a kind of like a. Like they get to know you a little bit. You know, they get. And so even if they heard of Studio McGee and they're like, I really like their style. It's like they're going to follow you for a second. They're going to see how you conduct your, yourself and what projects you may. Because I mean, people think about building a house for a couple of years. Like they're, there's a long decision making process there and so.
And they're also probably putting feelers out to a couple of designers that they're feeling excited about and they are taking information like, how was that initial call and is it a good fit? Just as much as we're doing that with them, they're doing that with other firms. And I just, I don't really have a problem with that because it's just part of the process. And if I was shopping for an architect and I had like a dream architect, but then I had a, an intro call that I was like, I just don't think we're a personality fit, then that's fine. We're working together for a long time. So that's just kind of how I think that there's a lot of great designers and there's a lot of clients and I think that there's work, there's, there's work. And I don't think we need to be like, to approach it like there, it's scarce. A scarcity mindset.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, can we talk about onboarding a little bit and how you guys are filtering your inquiries and putting them into that tier system? When someone is initially reaching out who is handling those sales calls in the onboarding process, I imagine that there's like, you know, initial, then it gets put into a category and then it goes, moves up through the system. Can you just talk us through that?
[00:54:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So we have one, that, one, we have two team members that kind of work on this and one is helping kind of like filter those inquiries.
We have the form on our website and we also have referrals from, we have a lot of referrals from existing or past clients and, or builders that we've worked with. There's just, you know, as I'm getting old and as time goes on, you have more opportunities for referrals in different directions. So those come in and you know, it's funny because like people always want to talk to me and I'm like, I can't give you the, I don't have the information. Like, I am not the best, I'm actually not the best person to talk to at all. I need to send you to the right person so that they can get you the actual information about how, how we work in our pricing and everything. So we have a team member who is sifting through all those inquiries and responding and saying, you know, here's. Here's the information on pricing. And then you kind of have that, like, okay, we're going to star this potential they're building, and it's X Square footage. They're working with this architect and this builder. Like, the team is coming together in a great way. The location seems really appealing.
And then that, like, gets separated, and from there there's like a quick intro call and then it's kicked to our head of operations, who manages the full operations of the design team. And the. She is the one that's going to formalize a bid and send it once it gets to that. Once it gets to that point.
So I think we have created documentation that outlines those tiers like we talked about, so that people can really say, like, well, this is what I want to bid for. Like, I actually don't want to pay for Shay's involvement. I don't. But I know that you guys will do good work for me. And so then that's how we. That we really have to, like, walk them through their different options.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: And so is if you guys have starred someone as. And I'm sorry, I think the top tier was premier.
Premiere. Okay. If something comes in and it's like, okay, this looks like it could be a premiere project.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: Will.
[00:56:44] Speaker B: Will someone have gotten FaceTime with you before a proposal has even been sent?
[00:56:48] Speaker A: They won't get a FaceTime with me, actually, until they've signed on.
[00:56:51] Speaker B: Okay, great. That's super helpful.
[00:56:53] Speaker A: So my head of design has been with me for a million years, really since, like, she was an intern 10 years ago.
[00:57:01] Speaker B: She.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: She reviews before we fully sign on a project. And I think it's important to have that designer perspective. I was just going to mention that because I was about our operational team, like, reviewing. But also it's important to have, like, that designer look at the plans and say, actually, like, this isn't the style of the home, isn't a good fit for us or what they're sending us on their Pinterest boards. Like, I think we're pretty far off stylistically. Or no, I can see potential. They just need a little bit of guidance, you know? And so we have her look over those before we officially sign on. Agree to sign on.
[00:57:39] Speaker B: Even if they're. Even if that person's not going to be assigned on that project. They're looking over everything.
[00:57:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:57:44] Speaker B: Amazing.
Okay, so design firm side 18 people. There's also additional people who are fluid across the board. Can you give us an idea of how many projects is at one time is the sweet spot for you. And let's remove virtual design because I'm sure that that's a, you know, quicker turn and burn situation. Yeah. What is like a good threshold because you guys are all exclusively doing new builds. Do you renovate anything anymore?
[00:58:11] Speaker A: We do. It's funny, you know, you attract like what you put out there. And I, early in my career, I had a few big new build projects and that's what our. That's what people come to me for. So I wouldn't say it's because we turn them away so much as it's just like who's people approach us with like full teams. Architect, builder. I bought the land. I'm building a home from the ground up. And that's, that's kind of just like what I do. What we've grown to have a reputation to be skilled at, but it wasn't because I'm turning them away. It's just like we have a couple of renovations right now. We have a really cool historical renovation that we're working on. But like, that I can like, name it because it's like the one. It's like the one project that we're working on that's like that.
And in California they call them renovations, but it's really.
[00:58:59] Speaker B: They're.
[00:59:00] Speaker A: They're like just leaving like one wall, you know.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:02] Speaker A: I'll call it a new build.
And I would say that our sweet spot is like in the high 20s range of projects that's spread across the team.
And so let's say it's like mid-20s or something. But like, if each team of couple designers is like has, you know, five projects or, you know, whatever, that's, that's how we operate. And we have one. I know you said no virtual design, but we have one team member that's full time virtual design. And then we actually use virtual design as a tool to even out hours. So if a project has like a little bit of a lull, they'll take on a virtual design so that we can keep them busy. And then things get busy again and then they're back to like the full service work.
[00:59:53] Speaker B: I think full time virtual designer sounds so fun. Like you just get to like shop all day.
[00:59:58] Speaker A: You get to shop all day and you're kind of cranking the designs out. I think it's a really great way to like hone your decorating skill set.
[01:00:07] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Okay, talk to me about red flags. What at this caliber are you.
Have you experienced as being like, okay, that sets off a little ding now that we've lived and experienced it.
[01:00:22] Speaker A: And are you saying prior to taking the client on or once they're with
[01:00:25] Speaker B: us, just, just give me what you got? And any of the above.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: I think that red flag beforehand is I look at the. I do, I look at the. I look at the visuals, but really it's a personal. It's like, how are they on the phone? Like, our, our team is like, they have to be almost like therapists where they're, like, listening to, like, the shortness, the bluntness. And maybe that works for certain types of design teams because that is how they operate, but that's not our team's culture. And so we're.
We tend to, we tend to look for clients that are a little bit more relaxed and.
But I say that and, like, I've got all types of. I've got all types of clients, but I would say that, like, kind of, if they're already trying to negotiate on, like, any negotiation on hourly rate or any negotiation on, can't you do a flat rate? It's kind of like, this is just what. This is how our business operates. And so if this isn't working for you, kind of like at this point phase, then it's really not going to work for you when you see how much that furniture costs or we know, whatever. And so it's like, I think that that negotiation is usually a really big red flag.
[01:01:51] Speaker B: Okay, I have a few last questions before I know I have to let you go.
I want to talk about what smaller studios can learn from this conversation. If a designer wants to build a really brand LED studio today, where would you tell them to start?
[01:02:09] Speaker A: I, I would start by actually writing down, like, how you view your brand. Like, and then you have to actually.
Or maybe what you want your brand to be.
And if you're not there yet and you're like, but this is what I want to grow, to become, then you have to be that. You have to present that. And we've had to go through that ourselves. I shared about Netflix and I've shared about how it kind of changed the perspective of what we do. And so we had to say, well, what do we want? What do we actually want to be? And so now we're going to have to present that to the world. And if you see certain, like, 8,100 designers that you aspire to be like, that type of firm, then you should study how that firm is operating and what they're doing and who they're hiring. From a photography perspective, from a publicist perspective. And maybe you're not there now, but you have, like a path to get there. And I think you writing. I'm such a believer in writing things down. And now that we have AI, it's really easy. You can just voice and record yourself just chatting and then it will put together a beautiful document of what you want to become. And I think that that's my advice is like, decide who you want to be and then become it.
[01:03:29] Speaker B: What platforms or avenues are you, your team, your advisors, seeing as the place for, for designers to invest their marketing efforts in right now. I know you semi recently launched Substack. Is it something else that you guys are like, okay, we have to start exploring this?
[01:03:45] Speaker A: I love Substack as a creative outlet and a more personal, like, connection point. And I see a lot of potential there, but it is not where the numbers are. And also it's new. And so for me, I've been doing other platforms for longer. And so that's where we're just like, we're just not like. I see substack growth, but it's not at the same rate as like, YouTube. YouTube is on fire. YouTube's on fire. And it's harder because video is more time intensive. I'm aware of that. But I think that people have a little, like, Instagram is still our bread and butter is still where the most numbers are. But people do have a little bit fatigue and I think that they're exploring. I think that they're exploring YouTube. Like, we see the most fast growth there compared to Instagram is like a continuous, steady growth. Substack is a continuous, steady growth, but it's like smaller.
[01:04:44] Speaker B: What is one thing you wish more designers understood about how their brand is being perceived before a client ever reaches out?
[01:04:55] Speaker A: Well, I think we, I use the phrase inside baseball with my team. And when you're like, in your business, you kind of just think everybody has seen the image that you posted three times. It feels like you've posted a hundred or you've. You've shared a certain message one time, you think that everyone saw it and no one cares and they're not seeing it that often.
So if you have a message or a visual that you're really wanting to make sure people see you kind of got to do it to where it feels like fatigue.
And that might feel frustrating at times, but also you have to give people the chance to, like, find you, see you. And so a one time only, like, oh, I posted in stories like a week ago that this is what we offer as a business. It's like, well, what if they missed it? What if they were on that day and they were on vacation? You probably need to, like, repeat that a few more times.
Create a place where people can find it long term.
We get in our own heads so much as business owners, and we think that the world revolves around us, and you forget that it doesn't. And you need to give people the opportunity to find the message that you're trying to. To portray.
[01:06:15] Speaker B: That is so true. I feel like all content should be considered evergreen content these days. Like, you post a project once, I don't care. Run that project for five years. Like, if that's the project you're proud of, you just need to assume that, like, 0.001% of your actual followers see a post because of the algorithm.
Okay, Shay, I want to talk about around the Table. It's your first cookbook. Congratulations. It's beautiful. It was so fun to follow along behind the scenes. You guys documented you cooking all the time.
What do you hope people take away from around the Table beyond just the recipes themselves?
[01:06:52] Speaker A: Yeah. So, Michael, I mean, yes, it's a cookbook, but it's actually a lot more than that. It's all about entertaining and the tablescapes and the design and how design influences the way I cook and the way I bring people together. And I. I think my. My hope was that I could create something that I'm always hoping to inspire people to, like, live a little bit more beautifully. And there's so much to learn from taking inspiration from, like, other areas and then applying them in new ones. I'm, like, taking creativity from every. Like, you know, I go to a restaurant on vacation and I'm like, oh, I like the way they did the napkin or like, whatever it is. And so my hope is that I've had so much feedback from people saying, like, you know, this is the first time I've felt inspired to, like, have someone over in many years. And how cool is that? I. I've loved that. And I think as someone who spends a lot of time thinking about home, like, that's ultimately the goal. And what do we do when we celebrate? We usually involve food. I know I do. And so that was my hope.
[01:07:58] Speaker B: I love that. Okay, what is coming up next? I know you're always under NDAs and all of these things, contracts. What. Is there anything you can share with us that you guys have in the pipeline?
[01:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So my next big project is retail. So we are opening our first flagship retail store in Salt Lake City in September. I say September. It could be October, but let's say September. I'm trying to stick to that deadline.
It's 7,000 square feet and it's in a historical building in Salt Lake. And I'm so excited about it. It's coming along.
And we are. I mean, Sid was traveling yesterday to scout more locations. So the hope is that we will have leases, a couple of leases signed by next year to continue to build into retail. And that is my.
That's my next big project.
[01:08:56] Speaker B: Well, can I just throw Austin in the ring? Because I feel like there is such a market for it here. We do not have excellent retail locations. We have some great partners who are like wholesale partners here. Obviously, Four Hands is based here. He's amazing. But I'm just saying, like, there is room.
[01:09:12] Speaker A: It is on my radar. Like I. Texas is on my radar and I love Austin. So maybe we. Maybe we need to fly out there next.
[01:09:21] Speaker B: Yes. 100. Send me an address. I'll send you.
[01:09:25] Speaker A: Okay. Thank you.
[01:09:27] Speaker B: Shay. Thank you so much. This was such a wonderful conversation. You're always so generous with us and the fact that you fit us into your insane schedule is just such a blessing. So thank you for giving us your time today.
[01:09:37] Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[01:09:43] Speaker B: A very special thanks to our episode sponsor, Laloy, the makers of beautifully crafted rugs, pillows and wall art, and seasoned partner Materia, the design platform, helping interior designers source material, manage specifications and streamline project workflows. For more in depth analysis of this interview, including exclusive downloads, examples and more. Don't forget to subscribe to the Interior Collective on Patreon. We are building an amazing private community of interior designers and industry experts open to candid conversations and answering questions. Join us on Patreon in the show notes
[email protected] the Interior Collective.
Thank you so, so much for tuning into this episode. Producing this show has truly been the honor of my career and I cannot believe I get to have these conversations. A big, huge thank you to our production team at IDCO Studio and Quinn made your contribution literally makes this podcast feasible and the biggest thank you to you, our listeners. Your sweet notes, DMs and reviews mean so much to us as we work to keep our show free and always accessible.
Until next time, I'm Anastasia Casey and this is the Interior Collective, a podcast for the business of beautiful living.
